Church Marriage - Post Marriage Referendum

How will your children be accommodated in a non RC school as atheist Catholics or Christians or whatever you identify as? I'd rather people indoctrinate their children on their own time, be it in atheist Christianity or bringing them to Tesco or whatever else. My husband went to school in the country of his birth and managed to be educated without being indoctrinated. It's not an impossible task.

MrWalsh wrote: »

Nope, it aint that simple. You apply for an appointment to register. In writing mind because apparently email doesnt cut it. Nor does a phone call. Nor can anyone tell you when that appointment might happen because the mysterious calender is not available when you ring, 4 times. Then you wait 3 months for the appointment. The appointment to make the appointment to get married. Which guess what, requires 3 months notice. So now youre at 6 months and all you wanted was a quick and simple civil ceremony.

You had to write them a letter to get your appointment? Am I understanding that correctly? I was able to make my appointment online and was able to make one for a maybe two or three weeks in the future which was the time that suites with work.

The big problem as I see is this -

The CC is against same sex marriage.
They are not obliged to perform SSM ceremonies, according to what I have read.
They DO perform Opposite sex ceremonies AND are the civil registrar for those marriages on the same day, same time, same venue.

Ok, are you with me?

So a SS couple go to their local church and say "marry us". Priest says "NO" you are SS and we do not approve.

Then, like the printers and the cake shop, the SS couple will take an equality action against the Church.

If the church is the civil registrar for Opposite sex couples only, I can see there being a challenge to that on equality basis sooner or later.

And then the Church will have no choice but to remove itself from the Civil part of the church wedding ceremony.

Well, that's my thinking on it.

MrWalsh wrote: »

Yep. But they'll probably get away with it the same way they get away with Section 37.

Section 37 of what Act are you referring to?

I think you might be referring to a "get out" clause re equality/discrimination in respect of religious institutions. But I am not sure that is law here yet, maybe it is.

But even then, that would be fine for a Church to refuse to carry out a church "ceremony" for SS couples in their Church, but they surely cannot refuse to carry out the Civil Registration part just because the couple are SS.

I think I read somewhere that SS marriages could only happen with Civil Registration. Yes, but the Church is a Civil Registrar!

I dunno, but I think this might cause some problems down the line!

MrWalsh wrote: »

Sorry, should have been clearer, I'm referring to section 37 of employment equality act which allows schools, hospitals (any religious run institution) to terminate someone who they deem to be against the "ethos" leaving the individual with no recourse in law.

There is a motion in the pipeline to change it but currently the discrimination exists.

Recent link here: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/bill-to-prevent-sacking-of-gay-teachers-30938317.html

It's been around a long time, and the church has gotten away with it because they must be allowed to protect their "ethos", so no doubt they'll pull a similar stunt re civil same sex marriage.

Thanks for the information.

I still think the Church is on a sticky wicket if it refuses to carry out the Civil Registration part of a wedding (they can refuse the church bit), on the grounds that the couple is SS.

They are either Civil Registrars to all (assuming the referendum passes), or none IMV.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

I think they currently are able to refuse to marry someone for being divorced which would be covered as discrimination so I think they have a get out clause when it comes to discrimination like the schools and hospitals.

You could be right there. But Divorcees are not covered in the anti discrimination/equality legislation though. Sexual orientation is.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The big problem as I see is this -

The CC is against same sex marriage.
They are not obliged to perform SSM ceremonies, according to what I have read.
They DO perform Opposite sex ceremonies AND are the civil registrar for those marriages on the same day, same time, same venue.

Ok, are you with me?

So a SS couple go to their local church and say "marry us". Priest says "NO" you are SS and we do not approve.

Then, like the printers and the cake shop, the SS couple will take an equality action against the Church.

If the church is the civil registrar for Opposite sex couples only, I can see there being a challenge to that on equality basis sooner or later.

And then the Church will have no choice but to remove itself from the Civil part of the church wedding ceremony.

Well, that's my thinking on it.

False.

The Constitution protects the right of religious organizations to run their own affairs - Article 44. It is clear from case law that this is true even where the result would be considered discriminatory in civil law.

Furthermore, the marriage bill that will be enacted if the referendum is passed also protects the right of religious bodies to refuse to marry couples in same-sex relationships.

It is ironclad. Anyone claiming otherwise is talking through their hat.

Think for a moment: we have anti-discrimination laws prohibiting sex discrimination and yet there are no women priests. The Catholic Church refuses to marry people all the time on grounds of religion, and civil status (e.g. a marriage in which the parties are not catholic, a marriage in which one of the parties was previously divorced).

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

You could be right there. But Divorcees are not covered in the anti discrimination/equality legislation though. Sexual orientation is.

Being divorced is covered, it comes within the civil status ground and is therefore among the protected grounds in our non-discrimination laws.

This could be actually a good thing. It might force state to do proper civil ceremonies during weekends and you could avoid some fruitcake with ring warming routine doing it if you don't want religious ceremony.