Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

WakeUp · 10-04-2015 12:51pm

robindch wrote: »

Both countries are nuclear-armed, so it's unlikely there will be any significant war between the two.

I did imply, though, that China is now able to influence significant segments of Russian domestic and international policy - the recent €300b gas deal, probably below-cost, from which the Chinese are making out like thieves from Russia's new-found weakness on the international stage, being a good example.

Yes, Russia has found a new friend to shore up its lack of friends elsewhere, but China's in it only for China's sake and Russia, perhaps even knowing this, should really try to choose its friends a little more carefully.

every single nation on earth operates for their own sake and because of their own interests this is normal. China and Russia are doing a lot more than just signing gas deals be it discounted prices or not. the US pivot to Asia pacific in an attempt to check Chinese influence is going to be interesting.

InTheTrees wrote: »

They were on the point of war for thirty years. Until China started opening up after the end of the cultural revolution. And now China is far more pacific rim oriented than cosying up to Russia. but I'm no expert.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_split

historically China has always looked inwards for numerous reasons one of them being the place is just so big they have enough to contend with just keeping things ticking over within their own borders. until now and quite recently that is. the Chinese have plans.

Taiwan, Russia Join China’s New Development Bank

More than 40 countries, including Russia and Taiwan, have agreed to be founding members of China’s proposed Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank. However, two of the world’s largest economies, the United States and Japan, have held off at this time.

China proposed the bank last October as a way to finance roads, bridges, ports and other needed infrastructure projects in Asia. The time limit for joining as a founding member was March 31.

In only a few months, the number of countries seeking membership nearly doubled. They came from Africa, Europe, South America, Asia and the Pacific. Some European powers added themselves to the list. They include Britain, Germany, France and Italy. Other important economies include South Korea, Australia and Russia.

http://learningenglish.voanews.com/content/many-join-chinas-development-bank/2706046.html

A few weeks back, we noted that China (via a state-run media outlet) appeared to be adopting a more conciliatory approach when it comes to describing Beijing’s vision for the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank. The venture, which Washington did its best to undermine last year, has made an unlikely run at taking center-geopolitical-stage even as other, more ostensibly newsworthy events (such as the veritable collapse of the Yemeni state and the ongoing crisis in Greece) vie for the market’s very limited attention span.

And while we, more than perhaps any other news outlet, have gone to great lengths to demonstrate the importance of what is not only a move by Beijing to inaugurate a sino-Monroe Doctrine but to simultaneously start the world on the path to yuan hegemony, we were also quick to note that there’s such a thing as being too successful, especially when it comes to making sure a whole cohort of Western nations who have just gone out on the proverbial limb in defiance of The White House, are left with some assurance that there’s at least some part of the institution which is actually aimed at promoting infrastructure development rather than operating solely as Beijing’s newest foreign policy tool.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-07/china-cant-believe-its-luck-investment-bank

IrishTrajan wrote: »

How in the hell does Europe want war? If the EU wanted war, they'd let the Polish send in a couple tank divisions to join the Ukrainians and let the French and British carry out amphibious assaults on Crimea. If they wanted war, they'd let the Polish smash the Russians at Kaliningrad. They'd let the Scandinavians burn St. Petersburg to the ground. You are insane if you think that Europe wants a war with the State who have the most nuclear weapons in the world, and a doctrine that dictates they use them.

"We (EU) will kick them out", oh, really? Did you know that the European countries have actually sided with the US more often as part of the EU, than before it? You are assuming a zero-sum game where both sides want all the power. That isn't true. The European Union and the United States complement each other rather than oppose.

Why on earth would the EU choose Russia and China over the US? Why on earth would the EU choose two regimes with deplorable human rights issues and even bloodier histories than the US? Why on earth would the EU choose to alienate its largest partner and ally, in favour of two lesser powers who even together wouldn't match the US in economic or military size? Why on earth would the EU, who has been the historic counterweight to the USSR, choose the Russians over the Americans?

They wouldn't, and they won't. I'd rather the US hegemony than Chinese or Russian, because in the West we're allowed to criticize the Government's actions. We're allowed to voice our concern over the governance of our nations. We're allowed to protest, and to have our voice heard. The EU will not turn on the US, to believe otherwise is a fairy tale for the anti-Westerners to stroke themselves off to.

in your haste to jump and drool I think you may have missed the point. nice rant though.

WakeUp · 10-04-2015 1:10pm

Morpheus wrote: »

Russia had better hope that the EU never gets its EU army up and running... thats all ill say, the amount of economic and combined military power in our bloc is infinitesimally more than Russia could hope to bring to bear.

and why do you think Europe is considering an EU army? have you thought about that...and what do you think it would mean for Nato?....

Lemming · 10-04-2015 1:33pm

Morpheus wrote: »

Russia had better hope that the EU never gets its EU army up and running... thats all ill say, the amount of economic and combined military power in our bloc is infinitesimally more than Russia could hope to bring to bear.

TBH, an EU army will not happen in all likelihood, short term or long. What is far more likely is some sort of semi/permanent 'battle groups' that see unit rotation between countries and more enhanced cooperation & training; basically an extension of what NATO already does, only at EU level.

Either which way, the sum total of the EU's military strength would knock Russia sideways and ask if Russia wants an extra side-order of kickings to go with it in a stand-up fight (none of which would matter anyway if the really big mushroom bullets start flying). It's getting it all to co-ordinate efficiently, and whilst some countries are already in such a position; others are not yet. But the biggest hamstring is political, not military.

gandalf · 10-04-2015 1:36pm

WakeUp wrote: »

and why do you think Europe is considering an EU army? have you thought about that...and what do you think it would mean for Nato?....

They are probably looking at the danger coming from Russia to some of their members.

Meanwhile back to the topic and the illegal Russian sponsored conflict in the Ukraine.

Amnesty International have said there is mounting evidence that the Russian backed "Rebels" (and in reality Russians pretending to be "Rebels") murdered captured Ukrainian troops.

Amnesty International said Thursday that it has evidence that Russian-backed separatists in east Ukraine have killed several captured government soldiers in gross violation of international humanitarian law.

The human rights group said in a statement that footage it has seen shows at least four Ukrainian soldiers – now confirmed dead – being interrogated by rebel militia. Pictures showing bullet wounds to the soldier’s heads and bodies appeared to show they had died as the result of execution-style killings, the group said.

.....

The English-language Kyiv Post newspaper earlier this week managed to contact a rebel unit commander, Arseniy Pavlov, who is believed to be a Russian national, to respond to widely aired claims he was responsible for executions.

In the telephone interview, which has been uploaded to YouTube, Pavlov responds – before hanging up – that he personally shot dead 15 Ukrainian servicemen.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1929003/human-rights-group-accuses-ukraine-separatists-of-killing-government-soldiers/

And now a man who lives in Crimea who only days after he complained to the European Court of Human Rights has been arrested as a terrorist.

Russia really respects the Ukrainian minority that it forcibly took on when they carried out the illegal land grab last year.

A Moscow court ruled that a Crimean man arrested on suspicion of terrorism will remain in detention in Moscow through May 16, days after he filed a complaint with the European Court of Human Rights claiming that he was illegally forced to give up Ukrainian citizenship and become Russian, the BBC's Russian-language service reported Thursday.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/news/article/crimean-man-accused-of-terrorism-appeals-to-european-court-over-forced-russian-citizenship/518869.html

WakeUp · 10-04-2015 1:41pm

gandalf wrote: »

They are probably looking at the danger coming from Russia to some of their members.

you really think a proposed EU army is because of and going to be directed at Russia?:D you mean sort of like Nato...

bilston · 10-04-2015 1:46pm

We don't need an EU army, the combined military strength of the 25 nations is enough to put the brakes on Russia, plus we have the British and French deterrents to fall back on as well. Sure the Russian arsenal is a lot bigger but Britain and France have enough firepower to flatten Russia and that is all that is required to act as a deterrent.

WakeUp · 10-04-2015 2:00pm

bilston wrote: »

We don't need an EU army, the combined military strength of the 25 nations is enough to put the brakes on Russia, plus we have the British and French deterrents to fall back on as well. Sure the Russian arsenal is a lot bigger but Britain and France have enough firepower to flatten Russia and that is all that is required to act as a deterrent.

Getting an EU army together isnt just about the Russians or Russia or deterring Russia. its isnt all about Russia. Nato is the American mechanism of dominating the continent of Europe. an EU army would be for the security and in the interests of Europe as opposed to Nato which is a tool of US foreign policy. the sooner an EU army is put together the sooner we can attempt to break US dominance of the continent and place our interests back in our own hands. sometimes I do wonder where peoples allegiances actually lie - to Europe or America. perhaps thats a knowledge based question.

NATO not amused by EU plan to create separate army

NATO says a plan by the European Union to create its own army would be ineffective. The military alliance’s secretary-general, Jens Stoltenberg, says the EU should make sure everything they do is complimentary to NATO and avoid duplication.

Stoltenberg told a press briefing in Belgium that he would welcome an increased investment by European nations in defense, but this should be channeled towards NATO, adding that “duplication would be inefficient.”

"It's important to avoid duplication and I urge Europe to make sure that everything they do is complementary to the NATO alliance," he said, Reuters reported.

..........

Meanwhile, a former deputy speaker of the Belgian parliament, Lode Vanoost, said the move would also be aimed against Washington. “Actually, this whole idea has historical precedents. Right after WWII, at the beginning of the Cold War, there was already an idea for the European defense community. That failed in 1954, and the Western European Union was founded. So the idea itself is not new at all.”

“The context today, of course, is different. The conservative forces within Europe want to establish themselves again as an entity next to the US. This idea floated by, and it is not just aimed at Russia, it is aimed at the US as well. Conservative forces don’t like the whole idea of America dominating Europe,” he told RT.

Alexander Neu, a Bundestag MP from Germany's Die Linke (Left) party, said that a European army is needed to loosen NATO grip on the continent.

"NATO is an instrument of American influence in Germany and the EU. It's the instrument that allows the US to fulfill its agenda in Europe. A united EU army would question the dominant positions of the US within NATO," the German MP said.

http://rt.com/news/239769-nato-eu-army-duplication/

gandalf · 10-04-2015 2:56pm

WakeUp wrote: »

you really think a proposed EU army is because of and going to be directed at Russia?:D you mean sort of like Nato...

TBH imho we don't need an army to face Russia down. The country is in decline, it's population is decreasing. The only reason they have been let away with their illegal behaviour with the Ukraine is because they retain a nuclear arsenal.

The Chinese are acting like their buddies but in reality the Chinese are on the cusp of becoming the 2nd Superpower (and the Yanks are also in decline). The Chinese for the last 15 years have been investing in a lot of African Nations hoovering up resources and they are now buying Russias at bargain basement rates. By isolating Russia with the criminal activities in the Ukraine Putin and his regime are now at the mercy of a Chinese government who are hell bent on securing resources at knock down prices. Instead of securing Russias future Putin is undermining it with a nation that is a far bigger threat to Russia than the US, EU or NATO.

Elmer Blooker · 10-04-2015 9:32pm

gandalf wrote: »

TBH imho we don't need an army to face Russia down. The country is in decline, it's population is decreasing. The only reason they have been let away with their illegal behaviour with the Ukraine is because they retain a nuclear arsenal.

The Chinese are acting like their buddies but in reality the Chinese are on the cusp of becoming the 2nd Superpower (and the Yanks are also in decline). The Chinese for the last 15 years have been investing in a lot of African Nations hoovering up resources and they are now buying Russias at bargain basement rates. By isolating Russia with the criminal activities in the Ukraine Putin and his regime are now at the mercy of a Chinese government who are hell bent on securing resources at knock down prices. Instead of securing Russias future Putin is undermining it with a nation that is a far bigger threat to Russia than the US, EU or NATO.

We?
The country is not in decline, it has unimaginable resources that Wall Street can only dream about and thats the reason why there IS an army called NATO threatening Russia and bringing the world to the brink of WW3.
China has to import ALL their energy, do you really think they can dictate their terms to Russia?
I'll ignore the bit about criminal activities in Ukraine - a country that celebrates it's nazi past.

BoJack Horseman · 10-04-2015 10:11pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

it has unimaginable resources that Wall Street can only dream about

The US is a bigger oil producer.

China has to import ALL their energy,

Fraid not hombre.

Regarding oil, China produces about 40% of what it consumes..... Of the imports only 8% is from Russia.

As for natural gas, Russia accounts for about 2% of imports!
China%20gas%20imports.png

Not to mention most of its leccy is generated by Coal, followed by hydro.

do you really think they can dictate their terms to Russia?

They already do evidently.

C'mon Elmer, this took 30 seconds of googling.
Up your game.

gandalf · 10-04-2015 10:14pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

We?
The country is not in decline, it has unimaginable resources that Wall Street can only dream about and thats the reason why there IS an army called NATO threatening Russia and bringing the world to the brink of WW3.

It's population is in total decline and they are not expanding their economy away from reliance on oil revenues. Russia has been in decline for years and will continue to do so.

The only country treatening WW3 is Russia, in recent times on a weekly basis.

China has to import ALL their energy, do you really think they can dictate their terms to Russia?

They already are dictating terms. As I said they are the emerging superpower. Russia is a spent superpower, at most they are a regional power and are only getting away with their crimes because they have nuclear weapons.

I'll ignore the bit about criminal activities in Ukraine

Well I already know you are ignoring Russia's crimes against the Ukraine, that has been your modus operandi for this whole thread.

- a country that celebrates it's nazi past.

That's fresh given Russia is the biggest sponsor of the far right and Neo-Nazi's in Europe.

BoJack Horseman · 10-04-2015 10:19pm

gandalf wrote: »

It's population is in total decline

Well, overall, slightly rising.
However its only amongst the steppe peoples of its Asiatic territories.

The white slavic population is & has been in decline.

That's fresh given Russia is the biggest sponsor of the far right and Neo-Nazi's in Europe.

Ain't that the truth.
Only that there isnt any far-right party in Ireland, the place would be flush with Kremlin cash.

Gatling · 10-04-2015 10:37pm

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Well, overall, slightly rising.
However its only amongst the steppe peoples of its Asiatic territories.

The white slavic population is & has been in decline.

Ain't that the truth.
Only that there isnt any far-right party in Ireland, the place would be flush with Kremlin cash.

Was there not a far right group hosting an event in Cork recently hosted by eastern Europeans

And here in tallaght far right eastern European groups are been regularly seen at games on the local stadium.

Give it a few years you will see more organised far right groups appearing here

IrishTrajan · 11-04-2015 1:52am

WakeUp wrote: »

in your haste to jump and drool I think you may have missed the point. nice rant though.

You said:

WakeUp wrote: »

Europe wants war or is prepared to take Russia on at the behest of the Americans.

And you said:

WakeUp wrote: »

If the Americans continue their attempts to go after Russia eventually we ( EU) will have to kick them out/take a stand against them for being off the wall crazy phuckers. which will eventually lead to the end of US dominance over Europe.

Note the "we will have to kick them out" part.

So, no, I didn't miss the point in my "haste". You made a stupid point and you got slapped down for it.

robindch · 11-04-2015 10:14am

WakeUp wrote: »

RT wrote:

Meanwhile, a former deputy speaker of the Belgian parliament, Lode Vanoost, said the move would also be aimed against Washington. “Actually, this whole idea has historical precedents. Right after WWII, at the beginning of the Cold War, there was already an idea for the European defense community. That failed in 1954, and the Western European Union was founded. So the idea itself is not new at all.”

Googles "Lode Vanoost". Ah, looks at links number 5, 6, 7 and 8. Turns out he's on RT's payroll:

http://rt.com/op-edge/authors/debunking-myths-starting-own/

Now there's a surprise!

WakeUp · 11-04-2015 1:36pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

You said:

And you said:

Note the "we will have to kick them out" part.

So, no, I didn't miss the point in my "haste". You made a stupid point and you got slapped down for it.

So now I'm stupid. Slapped down? really lol. you did miss the point in your drooling haste and you're selective quoting me. I never said "Europe wants war" I said I don't believe Europe wants war. you can read I presume. the rest of your post was nonsense. a rant. have a few things to do today. I'll get back to you though.

WakeUp · 11-04-2015 1:38pm

robindch wrote: »

Googles "Lode Vanoost". Ah, looks at links number 5, 6, 7 and 8. Turns out he's on RT's payroll:

http://rt.com/op-edge/authors/debunking-myths-starting-own/

Now there's a surprise!

he might be on RT payroll. that doesn't mean he isn't right. or is that what you're saying? what are you saying actually...

WakeUp · 11-04-2015 1:46pm

gandalf wrote: »

TBH imho we don't need an army to face Russia down. The country is in decline, it's population is decreasing. The only reason they have been let away with their illegal behaviour with the Ukraine is because they retain a nuclear arsenal.

The Chinese are acting like their buddies but in reality the Chinese are on the cusp of becoming the 2nd Superpower (and the Yanks are also in decline). The Chinese for the last 15 years have been investing in a lot of African Nations hoovering up resources and they are now buying Russias at bargain basement rates. By isolating Russia with the criminal activities in the Ukraine Putin and his regime are now at the mercy of a Chinese government who are hell bent on securing resources at knock down prices. Instead of securing Russias future Putin is undermining it with a nation that is a far bigger threat to Russia than the US, EU or NATO.

The Russians and Chinese are working together I think you're completely misreading the situation and unfolding events. The largest country in the world with some of the largest amounts of resources in the world and one of the largest nuclear arsenals in the world will never be at the mercy of anyone. Russia's resources and China's bank balance it's a potent combination. Old scores are being settled between the two and together they are looking toward the future. and all of it without so much as a cursory glance toward Washington or Brussels. they are forging ahead with their own gig it's blatantly obvious and apparent and has been for a while.

IrishTrajan · 11-04-2015 3:19pm

WakeUp wrote: »

So now I'm stupid. Slapped down? really lol. you did miss the point in your drooling haste and you're selective quoting me. I never said "Europe wants war" I said I don't believe Europe wants war. you can read I presume. the rest of your post was nonsense. a rant. have a few things to do today. I'll get back to you though.

No, actually, you said Europe wants war with Russia.

WakeUp wrote: »

the turning point has already happened vis a vis europe/eurasia unless you believe the Russians are going to back down, they wont. and Europe wants war or is prepared to take Russia on at the behest of the Americans

WakeUp wrote: »

and Europe wants war or is prepared to take Russia on at the behest of the Americans

WakeUp wrote: »

and Europe wants war

You are either a) lying about your stance to not look like an idiot. b) an idiot. c) all of the above.

IrishTrajan · 11-04-2015 3:30pm

WakeUp wrote: »

The Russians and Chinese are working together I think you're completely misreading the situation and unfolding events. The largest country in the world with some of the largest amounts of resources in the world and one of the largest nuclear arsenals in the world will never be at the mercy of anyone. Russia's resources and China's bank balance it's a potent combination. Old scores are being settled between the two and together they are looking toward the future. and all of it without so much as a cursory glance toward Washington or Brussels. they are forging ahead with their own gig it's blatantly obvious and apparent and has been for a while.

The Chinese and Russians are not working together. The Chinese are doing to Russia what they do to Iran. Prop them up for cheap oil supply and to keep the Americans distracted.

You also have no idea about how economies work. Resource-based economies will never be as profitable or as stable as tertiary-based economies. Nobody even wants to invest in Russia. Toyota were going to make Russia their base of operations for Europe... Until they realized how terrible the Russian way of doing business is, and they packed up and ran.

"Will never be the mercy of anyone". You mean, aside from OPEC, the US, EU, and China, right? Maybe back when they had the Warsaw Pact to prop their markets up, but not today. OPEC refusing to cut back on oil production has tanked the Russian economy. Which they could've survived... Had they not pissed off the Europeans and the Americans, cutting off access to financial markets. The Russian economy just took a gunshot to the stomach before alienating the medics.

"China's bank balance". Er.. You do know nominal GDP isn't how you should judge an economy's soft-power, right? GDP per capita is where your soft power comes in. China can't alienate the West. If they do, they lose access to the US and EU markets. Without the large growth from those markets, China's ethnic groups (of which there are at least 50) will begin to get antsy and the community party will be fighting insurrections. China's economy is also based on goods that the West could produce themselves if they really needed to. They don't produce essential commodities.

And they are welcome to run their "own gig". Just like Russia's "not-EU", it'll be unlikely to have any significance on the world stage. Russia and China are welcome to each other, because sooner or later, the Dragon will eat the Bear.

Gatling · 11-04-2015 3:36pm

WakeUp wrote: »

he might be on RT payroll. that doesn't mean he isn't right. or is that what you're saying? what are you saying actually...

He's paid by RT which actually means the Kremlin tell him what to say and when to say it

pablomakaveli · 11-04-2015 4:04pm

Interesting video of the Ukrainian soldiers defending Donestk from the Russians. Proudly singing the Ukrainian anthem when they were likely doomed at that point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_14RTDNqbA

gandalf · 11-04-2015 4:19pm

WakeUp wrote: »

The Russians and Chinese are working together I think you're completely misreading the situation and unfolding events. The largest country in the world with some of the largest amounts of resources in the world and one of the largest nuclear arsenals in the world will never be at the mercy of anyone. Russia's resources and China's bank balance it's a potent combination. Old scores are being settled between the two and together they are looking toward the future. and all of it without so much as a cursory glance toward Washington or Brussels. they are forging ahead with their own gig it's blatantly obvious and apparent and has been for a while.

No imho you are reading the whole situation desperately trying to get it to match your biases. The Chinese see an opportunity to get their hands on Russia's resources at bargain basement prices because Russia is being rightly ostracised by the international community because of their illegal and immoral actions against the Ukraine.

China are in reality the biggest threat to Russia in the long term. They share a border and they have a massive military infrastructure that is growing all the time and unlike the Americans or NATO can be in Russian territory in a very short space of time.

robindch · 11-04-2015 6:01pm

WakeUp wrote: »

he might be on RT payroll. that doesn't mean he isn't right. or is that what you're saying? what are you saying actually...

As Gandalf has wisely pointed out, it should not be enormously surprising to see a guy who's paid to produce political opinions for a state-controlled media organization, produce opinions which broadly support the political policy of the state which controls the media organization.

In fact, I'd have thought it was bordering on the "obvious".

WakeUp · 11-04-2015 6:02pm

gandalf wrote: »

No imho you are reading the whole situation desperately trying to get it to match your biases. The Chinese see an opportunity to get their hands on Russia's resources at bargain basement prices because Russia is being rightly ostracised by the international community because of their illegal and immoral actions against the Ukraine.

China are in reality the biggest threat to Russia in the long term. They share a border and they have a massive military infrastructure that is growing all the time and unlike the Americans or NATO can be in Russian territory in a very short space of time.

the lack of "reality" in this post something you allude to a lot is astounding. for someone who states as such quite a bit you dont appear to know much about it. "desperately" and "biases"?? give it a phuckin break will you I could just as much level the same accusations at you because of your position but ya know such things are a really weak form of argument so I wont. according to you China is the biggest threat to Russia because why??.. they share a land border and can hypothetically roll into Russia easier than Nato? because Russia would just let that happen right...China could just roll in and Russia wouldnt light their asses up with their theater nuclear missiles. nope instead they would let China just roll over them.. what do you know about realism?? tell me about it....

WakeUp · 11-04-2015 6:05pm

robindch wrote: »

As Gandalf has wisely pointed out, it should not be enormously surprising to see a guy who's paid to produce political opinions for a state-controlled media organization, produce opinions which broadly support the political policy of the state which controls the media organization.

In fact, I'd have thought it was bordering on the "obvious".

thats nice and all...so what are you saying though? that this guys opinion is incorrect and the Americans through Nato dont dominate the continent of Europe? or to put it another way Nato vis a vis the US is their sphere of influence over the continent..or are you just having a whine because the guy is writing for RT?...

WakeUp · 11-04-2015 6:11pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

No, actually, you said Europe wants war with Russia.

You are either a) lying about your stance to not look like an idiot. b) an idiot. c) all of the above.

eh, no I didnt say Europe wants war . so not only am I stupid Im now and idiot?? quite the debating skills you have there... where have I stated categorically that "Europe wants war"? show me please.....

WakeUp · 11-04-2015 6:22pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

How in the hell does Europe want war? If the EU wanted war, they'd let the Polish send in a couple tank divisions to join the Ukrainians and let the French and British carry out amphibious assaults on Crimea. If they wanted war, they'd let the Polish smash the Russians at Kaliningrad. They'd let the Scandinavians burn St. Petersburg to the ground. You are insane if you think that Europe wants a war with the State who have the most nuclear weapons in the world, and a doctrine that dictates they use them.

"We (EU) will kick them out", oh, really? Did you know that the European countries have actually sided with the US more often as part of the EU, than before it? You are assuming a zero-sum game where both sides want all the power. That isn't true. The European Union and the United States complement each other rather than oppose.

Why on earth would the EU choose Russia and China over the US? Why on earth would the EU choose two regimes with deplorable human rights issues and even bloodier histories than the US? Why on earth would the EU choose to alienate its largest partner and ally, in favour of two lesser powers who even together wouldn't match the US in economic or military size? Why on earth would the EU, who has been the historic counterweight to the USSR, choose the Russians over the Americans?

They wouldn't, and they won't. I'd rather the US hegemony than Chinese or Russian, because in the West we're allowed to criticize the Government's actions. We're allowed to voice our concern over the governance of our nations. We're allowed to protest, and to have our voice heard. The EU will not turn on the US, to believe otherwise is a fairy tale for the anti-Westerners to stroke themselves off to.

your snide personal comments aside, show me where I said categorically that Europe wants war as in they are actively seeking it..show me please...as for Poland smashing Russia and Russian nukes in Kalinagrad?? I mean huh, British and French amphibious assaults lol

and you expect to be taken seriously. show me where I said Europe is actively seeking a war with Russia , the premise of your other "retorts" to me where you allude to me being stupid and an idiot. show me please...

AbusesToilets · 11-04-2015 6:36pm

WakeUp wrote: »

thats nice and all...so what are you saying though? that this guys opinion is incorrect and the Americans through Nato dont dominate the continent of Europe? or to put it another way Nato vis a vis the US is their sphere of influence over the continent..or are you just having a whine because the guy is writing for RT?...

The US's influence is leveraged far more through economic means than militarily. US forces have been drawing down in Europe for years, for example, there are no permanently based armored divisions left on the continent.

Europe gains far more out of US presence on the continent than the US does. It has allowed them to make minimal contributions to their defense forces, which frees up cash to fund spending on social programs.

The main benefit to the the US is access to airbases, which facilitates transit to other theaters around the world.

WakeUp · 11-04-2015 7:58pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

The Chinese and Russians are not working together. The Chinese are doing to Russia what they do to Iran. Prop them up for cheap oil supply and to keep the Americans distracted.

You also have no idea about how economies work. Resource-based economies will never be as profitable or as stable as tertiary-based economies. Nobody even wants to invest in Russia. Toyota were going to make Russia their base of operations for Europe... Until they realized how terrible the Russian way of doing business is, and they packed up and ran.

"Will never be the mercy of anyone". You mean, aside from OPEC, the US, EU, and China, right? Maybe back when they had the Warsaw Pact to prop their markets up, but not today. OPEC refusing to cut back on oil production has tanked the Russian economy. Which they could've survived... Had they not pissed off the Europeans and the Americans, cutting off access to financial markets. The Russian economy just took a gunshot to the stomach before alienating the medics.

"China's bank balance". Er.. You do know nominal GDP isn't how you should judge an economy's soft-power, right? GDP per capita is where your soft power comes in. China can't alienate the West. If they do, they lose access to the US and EU markets. Without the large growth from those markets, China's ethnic groups (of which there are at least 50) will begin to get antsy and the community party will be fighting insurrections. China's economy is also based on goods that the West could produce themselves if they really needed to. They don't produce essential commodities.

And they are welcome to run their "own gig". Just like Russia's "not-EU", it'll be unlikely to have any significance on the world stage. Russia and China are welcome to each other, because sooner or later, the Dragon will eat the Bear.

where to even begin though wait, what are you saying here..Russia and China have no or are unlikely to have any significance on the global stage?? well thats just plain ridiculous. or that Russia is at the mercy of the US and the EU?? but you see they arent. because its a chunk of Russia as opposed to the EU that is currently dependent on Russian energy right (gas/oil)?.. and will be for the forseeable future. not to mention the fact that the Russians have the uranium market cornered that stuff you need ya know to power nuclear power plants or will do fairly soon. they already control 40% of global enrichment capacity. Australia, Canada and Kazakhstan rely on Russia to enrich the uranium they mine. for the past say 20 years the Americans relied on Russian down blending capabilities ( decommissioned nukes ). to put that in context half of the uranium needed to power American nuclear plants or 10% of their electricity. the EU powers 1/3 of ours through Russian uranium. Rosatom builds more nuclear power plants than any other company in the world. with the contracts to supply uranium to boot .nuclear power is and has been the fastest growing major source of energy since the 60s. Russia is a global energy superpower and this gives them leverage, obviously. they dominate the worlds capacity to enrich uranium. economies arent up to much if you dont have the energy supply to power industry. but its the Russians that are at the mercy of the EU and US:rolleyes: your comment about China "alienating" or whatever that works both ways. do you really know as much about economies and future growth markets as you think you do I wonder.

Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

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