Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Gatling

Don't know what's worse the constant Kiev are idiots ,Americans are psychos
Nazis every second post .
All hail Vlad .

The Azov Battalion constantly been referred to is made up of less than 600 men and women all Ukrainian defending there country .
600 out of a population of 49 million and yet it's constant Kiev sent nazis Kiev did this .

Sooner or later minsk 2 will be smashed then what minsk 3 russia demands more land .

WakeUp

gandalf wrote: »

Again using the same language as a Kremlin press release WakeUp. I am actually surprised at you because I have found throughout this whole engagement that you have swayed away from that type of language and normally are far more elegant with your points.

I would counter who would have though that the modern Russia from a few years ago would have gotten involved in a grubby land grab reminiscent of events in Europe from over 75 years ago. I certainly didn't. Whilst I didn't like Putin I saw that Russia was making some progress under him. Now he has thrown all that progress away and is making the country a pariah in a very short time frame. What the hell did he expect to achieve from these actions. Maybe the fact that nothing happened to them from the Georgia "adventure" emboldened them.

Leaving the US out of this as a European and based on our history we have to respond to this kind of aggressive nationalism. We have seen the outcome when we haven't stood up to it.

You and I do disagree fundamentally on how we do that. You still believe that a softly softly approach is the one to be taken, I think that at this stage it would be as useful as a chocolate teapot. I have already laid out how I would deal with this situation in an earlier post today so I won't go over them again.

Ive watched and seen the leadership in Ukraine make mistake after mistake and get all the big decisions wrong, at one stage they were threatening to turn off the gas to Europe the very people who are trying to help them. that is what youre dealing with. I realise they are under pressure and between a rock and a hard place but thats exactly the time you need leaders with their heads screwed on and they need step up. they are and did the opposite. I dont rate them at all nor do I want anything to do with them which Ive stated since day one. nothing personal or against ordinary Ukrainian people and nothing to do with the Kremlin ( they gave me a few days off ) I just want nothing to do with them or their leaders. and of course that doesnt mean I think Russia annexing Crimea is right. you cant say leaving the US out of this because they are involved in it. they have their own agenda whilst the Germans and French who represent our interests do not agree with the approach many in Washington would like to take. In my opinion Russia and American whatever relationship they had its over they will never trust each other again thats a situation we cant afford with Russia and we are borderline. Nato and the Americans should never have gotten involved in Ukraine you could also ask what they expected would happen by doing so it should never have happened doesnt matter what the Ukrainian people want. harsh perhaps but just how it is. and now the situation is what it is with two nuclear superpowers already involved in an economic war and on the road to actual war. one follows the other. this is where its leading if a diplomatic solution isnt found. that isnt appeasement its avoiding chaos on a scale so bad it doesnt bear thinking about softly softly doesnt come into it. Russia will not attack a Nato member because that would mean thermonuclear war guaranteed so this premise that Putin is going to invade Europe or whatever just doesnt stand up. may cooler heads prevail. for all our sakes.

Lemming

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Lemming warned for straying off topic. WakeUp for taking it a step further into the realm of personal abuse gets an infraction. But both of you need to play nice from now on or it will be a ban.

With apologies to the mods and other posters; my last post was poorly worded in that it was not meant for WakeUp but for anyone else reading and thinking I was indeed "running off" any time he said something I disagreed with.

gandalf

TBH WakeUp when a country has a nuclear armed regional power with a far larger, better armed and more modern military than it interfering with its politics, blackmailing it with energy supplies and then pouring funds, arms, mercenaries and then even troops over its borders I think you can see why they are making errors. The pressures that the Ukrainian government are under are immense.

I certainly do not believe that today in Europe a sovereign nation should be at the mercy of another the way the Ukraine is to Russia. We should certainly strive to eradicate that sort of 1930's mentality totally from the continent.

Again we will agree to disagree I certainly believe not only is there merit in standing up against an aggressive bully on our doorsteps in Europe, it is something we have to do or we will face a far greater problem down the line.

SamHarris

https://news.vice.com/article/russian-soldiers-have-given-up-pretending-they-are-not-fighting-in-ukraine?utm_source=vicenewsfb what a surprise...

"Tanks and Russian units came through the LPR," Sapozhnikov said, referring to the self-declared Luhansk People's Republic on the border with Russia. "But I don't think that this is a secret anymore, everyone admits it, and the Russians admit it.…

Clearly they don't go on boards much.

So now we have basically everyone except the Russian government saying it.

SamHarris

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32114522 though I'm sure this will be dismissed as "propaganda" (what isn't to a certain type?) it should be interesting for those who want to know more about the conflict.

Playboy

SamHarris wrote: »

https://news.vice.com/article/russian-soldiers-have-given-up-pretending-they-are-not-fighting-in-ukraine?utm_source=vicenewsfb what a surprise...

"Tanks and Russian units came through the LPR," Sapozhnikov said, referring to the self-declared Luhansk People's Republic on the border with Russia. "But I don't think that this is a secret anymore, everyone admits it, and the Russians admit it.…

Clearly they don't go on boards much.

So now we have basically everyone except the Russian government saying it.

SamHarris wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32114522 though I'm sure this will be dismissed as "propaganda" (what isn't to a certain type?) it should be interesting for those who want to know more about the conflict.

I havent seen anyone deny on this thread recently that the Russian Military is active in Ukraine?

gandalf

And the ethnic cleansing is continuing in Crimea.

Media serving the ethnic Tatar minority in Russian-occupied Crimea have shut down after failing to register with the new pro-Moscow authorities.

There are accusations that the Kremlin is silencing a group often critical of its actions.

........

Most of the local media in Crimea strongly support the Russian annexation, and most have been registered by Russia's media regulator Roskomnadzor. But it appears that ATR's fate was sealed well before the deadline.

Other media owned by the channel's founder, Crimean Tatar businessman Lenur Islyamov, also failed to obtain Russian licences and suspended their operations on 1 April. They include Meydan radio and Russian-language Lider FM, the 15 Minut news website, and even the children's entertainment TV channel Lale.

Well-established Crimean Tatar news agency QHA did not receive a licence either, and Avdet newspaper had its application refused, after almost 25 years of publication. The paper's chief editor, Shevket Kaybullayev, is defiant and says that he will try to continue publishing the paper despite risking arrest.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32145218

It's not surprising that polls are showing that there is overwhelming support of the Crimea land grab given that there is no alternative being allowed by the media and people are in all probability afraid to express their true feelings as it will effect their business and personal lives as evidenced by the above actions of the Russian state.

robindch

BBC wrote:

Media serving the ethnic Tatar minority in Russian-occupied Crimea have shut down after failing to register with the new pro-Moscow authorities.

Can't immediately find the report, but I recall reading a couple of weeks ago that it wasn't so much "failing to register" as "repeatedly having their registration documents rejected" - with one of the Crimean Tatars claiming that the reasons given were ridiculous - the application documents repeatedly returned for missing commas, incorrect capitalization etc until the return deadline expired.

It's just one more part of Putin's multi-media approach to removing access to cultural and historical perspectives which suggest that Russia had a troubled past:

2007 - http://www.economist.com/node/10102921
2010 - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jun/17/united-russia-uniform-history-textbook
2013 - http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2013-06-18/russian-schools-to-teach-putin-s-version-of-history

robindch

Playboy wrote: »

I havent seen anyone deny on this thread recently that the Russian Military is active in Ukraine?

Not in this thread, but certainly in this one where denials are/were as shrill and continuous as they were implacable.

robindch

SamHarris wrote: »

So now we have basically everyone except the Russian government saying it.

In that recent documentary, Putin admitted that Russian troops under the direct Kremlin control did invade Crimea - after many months of claiming that only locally-organized "self-defence" units existed.

At the moment, Kremlin policy is for Putin, and the Russian government more generally, to admit that Russian troops are fighting in East Ukraine, but deny that they're under Kremlin control - the troops being there "on holiday" with weapons "bought in a shop".

I don't see any immediate reason why Putin, as he did with his implausible denials concerning Russian troops under Kremlin control in Crimea, won't subsequently change his story and admit that Russian troops under Kremlin control are/were indeed fighting in East Ukraine.

And, of course, there was the famous Amnesia Brigade which the Kremlin didn't deny, even at the time.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28934213

Gatling

robindch wrote: »

Not in this thread, but certainly in this one where denials are/were as shrill and continuous as they were implacable.

There's been one of two in here but for most part many even pro russians have admitted russian involment in Crimea and eastern Ukraine .

WakeUp

robindch wrote: »

In that recent documentary, Putin admitted that Russian troops under the direct Kremlin control did invade Crimea - after many months of claiming that only locally-organized "self-defence" units existed.

At the moment, Kremlin policy is for Putin, and the Russian government more generally, to admit that Russian troops are fighting in East Ukraine, but deny that they're under Kremlin control - the troops being there "on holiday" with weapons "bought in a shop".

I don't see any immediate reason why Putin, as he did with his implausible denials concerning Russian troops under Kremlin control in Crimea, won't subsequently change his story and admit that Russian troops under Kremlin control are/were indeed fighting in East Ukraine.

And, of course, there was the famous Amnesia Brigade which the Kremlin didn't deny, even at the time.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28934213

Robin Im curious as to what your position is with regard to Crimea?? I think Ive asked you a couple of times but you are yet to give me an answer...do you believe Ukraine should forcibly attempt to take Crimea back from the Russians with or without western involvement?? what is your position on Crimea??....

Vladimir Putin threatens NUCLEAR showdown over the West's interference in Ukraine

VLADIMIR Putin has warned Nato to back off from interfering with Crimea or face a nuclear response.

In a secret meeting with Washington officials, Russia said it was looking at a range of actions over the threat of the West supplying weapons to Ukraine.

They also threatened civil disturbance by Russian nationals in the former Soviet states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, who are feeling increasingly threatened by their powerful neighbour.

A report of last month's meeting, seen by The Times newspaper, said attempts by Nato to return the Crimean Peninsula to Ukraine would be met "forcefully including through the use of nuclear force".

And it said the supply of weapons to Kiev would be seen as "further encroachment by Nato to the Russian border".

Putin's generals at the high-level gathering in Germany told the Americans they spoke with the approval of their president.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/567879/Vladimir-Putin-threatens-nuclear-attack-against-the-West

Ready for Nuclear War over Ukraine?

By Robert Parry

A senior Ukrainian official is urging the West to risk a nuclear conflagration in support of a “full-scale war” with Russia that he says authorities in Kiev are now seeking, another sign of the extremism that pervades the year-old, U.S.-backed regime in Kiev.

In a recent interview with Canada’s CBC Radio, Ukraine’s Deputy Foreign Minister Vadym Prystaiko said, “Everybody is afraid of fighting with a nuclear state. We are not anymore, in Ukraine — we’ve lost so many people of ours, we’ve lost so much of our territory.”

Prystaiko added, “However dangerous it sounds, we have to stop [Russian President Vladimir Putin] somehow. For the sake of the Russian nation as well, not just for the Ukrainians and Europe.” The deputy foreign minister announced that Kiev is preparing for “full-scale war” against Russia and wants the West to supply lethal weapons and training so the fight can be taken to Russia.

“What we expect from the world is that the world will stiffen up in the spine a little,” Prystaiko said.

Yet, what is perhaps most remarkable about Prystaiko’s “Dr. Strangelove” moment is that it produced almost no reaction in the West. You have a senior Ukrainian official saying that the world should risk nuclear war over a civil conflict in Ukraine between its west, which favors closer ties to Europe, and its east, which wants to maintain its historic relationship with Russia.

Why should such a pedestrian dispute justify the possibility of vaporizing millions of human beings and conceivably ending life on the planet? Yet, instead of working out a plan for a federalized structure in Ukraine or even allowing people in the east to vote on whether they want to remain under the control of the Kiev regime, the world is supposed to risk nuclear annihilation.

But therein lies one of the under-reported stories of the Ukraine crisis: There is a madness to the Kiev regime that the West doesn’t want to recognize because to do so would upend the dominant narrative of “our” good guys vs. Russia’s bad guys. If we begin to notice that the right-wing regime in Kiev is crazy and brutal, we might also start questioning the “Russian aggression” mantra.

According to the Western “group think,” the post-coup Ukrainian government “shares our values” by favoring democracy and modernity, while the rebellious ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine are “Moscow’s minions” representing dark forces of backwardness and violence, personified by Russia’s “irrational” President Putin. In this view, the conflict is a clash between the forces of good and evil where there is no space for compromise.

Yet, there is a craziness to this “group think” that is highlighted by Prystaiko’s comments. Not only does the Kiev regime display a cavalier attitude about dragging the world into a nuclear catastrophe but it also has deployed armed neo-Nazis and other right-wing extremists to wage a dirty war in the east that has involved torture and death-squad activities.

https://consortiumnews.com/2015/02/23/ready-for-nuclear-war-over-ukraine/

PopePalpatine

Hackers have leaked thousands of emails between a Kremlin official and a Russian believed to be in Marine Le Pen's inner circle. Among the emails was one asking if she would back the annexation of Crimea. Source

Gatling

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Hackers have leaked thousands of emails between a Kremlin official and a Russian believed to be in Marine Le Pen's inner circle. Among the emails was one asking if she would back the annexation of Crimea. Source

Well well isnt that that a turn up for the books

gandalf

I know that those who "support" Russia and its actions in the Ukraine maintain that the minorities in the illegally annexed territory of the Crimea are better off under Russian rule. However it appears that the UN are saying quite clearly that Russia is no place for minorities at all.

UN concerned for non-Slav persons in Russia

Report says racism and xenophobia are rampant in country that needs to act against wide range of rights abuses.

The United Nations has called on Russia to combat all acts of racism, xenophobia and Islamophobia in a report that also addressed a wide range of other human rights abuses.

.....

The report mentions physical attacks by ultra-nationalist, racist and neo-Nazi groups including skinheads as well as discriminatory language against national, ethnic, religious or other minorities. It also discusses xenophobic and racist rhetoric in the political discourse, in particular during electoral campaigns, and in the media.

.....

Cooper said the three years since Vladimir Putin's return to the presidency have been the worst for human rights in the country’s post-Soviet history.

.....

The UN report pointed out that laws signed by Putin were believed to be violating the 1976 International Convention on Civil and Political Rights, including the legislation that limited internet activity and restricted links between Russian non-governmental organisation (NGOs) from getting foreign funding.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/04/russia-human-rights-150402173821888.html

Again it appears that the one country in the region who is actively encouraging fascism and isolation and removal of minorities is not the so-called Nazi's in Kiev but the real fascists in the Kremlin.

Sobko

What has this got to do with the subject of this thread? Surely there should be a separate thread for that.

Lemming

Sobko wrote: »

What has this got to do with the subject of this thread? Surely there should be a separate thread for that.

Quite simple really; the Kremlin is very keen - and rabidly so - to try and smear anyone who opposses Putin's will as some sort of fascist demon, crushing the rights of Putin-fearing, freedom-loving Russians and preparing to carry out some sort of "final solution" in that regard, followed by the hordes banging at the gates of Russia (as oddly enough has been a message thrown out to the Russian population at large since Tzarist times ... ).

The reality is quite the opposite, if not distinctly less dramatic, than what the Kremlin & its propoganda-bots would have us all believe. As can be seen by recent events where far-right organisations (traditionally linked with fascist and/or neo-nazi ideologies) have been invited to gather and discuss alliances with the Kremlin, the regressive roll-back on human rights towards minorities within Russia within the last three years, the alleged leaking of discussions between official kremlin sources and the French "Front Nationale" to support the annexation of Crimea, etc. etc. etc.

I could go on, but you should be able to get the idea of where it's all going from that.

TL;DR: Russia has been cosing up to and/or funding far-right organisations across Europe in recent times, all the while rolling back its own human rights record towards its own minorities whilst screaming about how everyone else is a wanna-be nazi as if shouting it long enough will make it true. None more so than the Ukrainians whilst pointing at the likes of Asov who number in the hundreds against the thousands of army troops, or those right wing elements in government who account for less than 3% of seats; relegating them to the fringes of political power (i.e. irrelevancy)

gandalf

Sobko wrote: »

What has this got to do with the subject of this thread? Surely there should be a separate thread for that.

It is entirely relevant to the thread given the "excuse" for Russians illegal behaviour against the Ukraine is that they are countering the so-called "fascism" in Kiev, when in reality they are perpetrating and fostering that exact behaviour throughout Europe.

Sobko

Its funny how the subect can be expanded beyond the actual Ukraine crisis when it suits but when the foreign policy of other countries in the very region are mentioned those who raise it are chastised. <snip>

Mod note: if you have a problem with moderation please report the post or raise it in the proper way

Gatling

Another one is russia demanding saudi stop there aerial bombardment in yemen and have raised the issue with the UN .
So they can annex crimea and invade east ukraine but demand the UN get involved in the middle east via iran i personally beleave

http://news.sky.com/story/1459153/yemen-set-for-vital-aid-amid-ceasefire-calls

Sobko

You don't agree that Saudi should stop bombing Yemen?

Gatling

Sobko wrote: »

You don't agree that Saudi should stop bombing Yemen?

On the orders of russia no absolutey not ,
Should russia be able to demand the UN act when it they want it

No

when they withdraw all troops from ukraine soil and stop with threats against the baltics ,denmark ,sweden and finland.
Then they should have a un say

Sobko

Gatling wrote: »

On the orders of russia no absolutey not ,
Should russia be able to demand the UN act when it they want it

No

when they withdraw all troops from ukraine soil and stop with threats against the baltics ,denmark ,sweden and finland.
Then they should have a un say

So who on the permanent council has the moral authority to call for the bombing to stop?

gandalf

Sobko wrote: »

Its funny how the subect can be expanded beyond the actual Ukraine crisis when it suits but when the foreign policy of other countries in the very region are mentioned those who raise it are chastised. <snip>.

<snip>it is pointing out the hypocrisy of Russia and their supporters in showing that their so called excuse for this grubby Ukrainian land grab has nothing to do with protecting minorities or fighting fascism given the way they treat them at home and their grooming and support of the far right all over Europe.

Sobko

Of course it's expanded. It is an internal Russian issue. Now it could be argued that it's relevant to their foreign policy. I've no real problem with the expansion. <snip>

gandalf

Sobko wrote: »

Of course it's expanded.

Again you are wrong, it is entirely relevant to the misadventure in the Ukraine by the Russian state.

It is an internal Russian issue.

No it's not. Russia's whole pretext to their illegal intervention into the Sovereign territory of the Ukraine, it's seeding of the so called rebels, financing of them, arming of them and then rescuing them with regular Russian forces was under the pretence of "protecting" minorities.

That study shows that they don't give a rats ass about minorities. It was just used as an excuse to bleed the Ukraine as punishment for daring to go against the Russians directions and puppets.

Now it could be argued that it's relevant to their foreign policy.

It certainly is when they are pretending to hate fascism yet are the major sponsor of fascists throughout the whole of Europe.

I've no real problem with the expansion. <snip>

Neither does the Kremlin

Sobko

Expansion of the topic. Don't even try to suggest otherwise with your little smilies.

gandalf

Sobko wrote: »

Expansion of the topic. Don't even try to suggest otherwise with your little smilies.

Then a question for you. In your opinion why did Russia illegally annex the Crimea and then get involved in Eastern Ukraine? Why did they do it?

Sobko

gandalf wrote: »

Then a question for you. In your opinion why did Russia illegally annex the Crimea and then get involved in Eastern Ukraine? Why did they do it?

Buffer zone from NATO and a message to Kiev to reject NATO and US advances. Also to protect their naval bases. They also believe it's part of Russia and should never have been gifted to Ukraine.