Church Marriage - Post Marriage Referendum

MrWalsh · 09-04-2015 02:06PM

arayess wrote: »

I don't disagree but i disagree with your methods on this whether your ceremony is religious or civil - the full legal aspect should be cover imo.
It's just bureaucracy (more of it) otherwise.

While I agree in some ways, I must admit to a bit of a snigger at this thread because the Church would be cutting off its own nose to follow through on such a threat.

I dont feel compelled to campaign to stop catholic priests from performing the legal part but if the Church got its knickers in a twist over same sex marriage and refused to do the civil bit of ANY marriage I would enjoy it

fits · 09-04-2015 02:13PM

Me too!

CelticRambler · 09-04-2015 02:23PM

MrWalsh wrote: »

No, but people who were getting married in a church will still have the day out and the religious blessing (which presumably was important to them in the first place otherwise they wouldnt have booked a church wedding right?) and they can just get the legal bit sorted in due course.

It'd have to be the other way 'round: book your civil ceremony first then tack the church wedding on afterwards. The Church won't marry people who aren't legally married, same way as they won't grant an annulment to people who aren't already divorced.

It's an interesting suggestion though - would cause enormous chaos, because everyone planning to get married in the next two years would be competing for appointments with a handful of registrars. They wouldn't be able to plan a big white church wedding until they had confirmation of the civil date, and it'd play havoc with all those hotel reservations ...

Mind you, it would open up a whole new market for overseas weddings.

MrWalsh · 09-04-2015 02:37PM

CelticRambler wrote: »

It'd have to be the other way 'round: book your civil ceremony first then tack the church wedding on afterwards. The Church won't marry people who aren't legally married, same way as they won't grant an annulment to people who aren't already divorced.

The Church already do perform marriage ceremonies for those not already legally married. The civil bit comes after the catholic marriage ceremony bit in a normal standard wedding.

Wasnt there a bishop exposed in recent years who was marrying travellers who were underage for legal marriage (under 16 AFAIR) but who reckoned that it was better to have them married in the eyes of the church anyway and they could sort the civil bit later.

Ive a pal who lives in the UK who got married here and only realised 10 years or so later that the priest hadnt done the civil bit - he assumed theyd done it in the UK before coming over for the Irish wedding - so she isnt legally married at all.

09-04-2015 02:53PM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Not permitted to carry out ceremonies in Ireland.
Yet anyway.

What's to stop a couple getting married in a registry office, say during their lunch break, and then have a wedding ceremony the following Saturday with the celebrant of their choice "performing"?

PhoenixParker · 09-04-2015 02:56PM

Deleted User wrote: »

What's to stop a couple getting married in a registry office, say during their lunch break, and then have a wedding ceremony the following Saturday with the celebrant of their choice "performing"?

Nothing, many people do it that way now, but there are 107 civil registrars, many of whom spend half their day on the road to venues to marry a single couple.

Getting an appointment in the registry office is where the difficulty will be. It's already fairly tricky, doubly so if you want a specific time or slot. Double the numbers they need to cater to and there'll be a big problem at least until more are hired and trained.

TheDuchess · 09-04-2015 02:59PM

If the referendum is passed, how soon after does it come into effect in law. Is it immediate?

MrWalsh · 09-04-2015 03:06PM

TheDuchess wrote: »

If the referendum is passed, how soon after does it come into effect in law. Is it immediate?

I dont know actually. I also dont know what the outcome will mean for currently civil partnered couples - will they be able to get an "upgrade" or will they have to have a completely separate marriage ceremony? I asked a TD recently but he didnt know.

Toots · 09-04-2015 03:21PM

CelticRambler wrote: »

The Church won't marry people who aren't legally married, same way as they won't grant an annulment to people who aren't already divorced.

Yes they will; my brother in law's marriage has been annulled by the church, but the divorce hasn't been finalised yet, and most likely won't be for another couple of years because it costs a bloody fortune for the solicitor and barrister.

daithi84 · 09-04-2015 03:27PM

In most countries the religious and civil are separate. Its the way it should be done here! The Catholic Church should not have responsibility over the legal end, only the religious.

pwurple · 09-04-2015 03:33PM

Toots wrote: »

Yes they will; my brother in law's marriage has been annulled by the church, but the divorce hasn't been finalised yet, and most likely won't be for another couple of years because it costs a bloody fortune for the solicitor and barrister.

OT, but tell him to check out a DIY divorce... don't need a solicitor or a barrister if it's straightforward. Loads of people do it that way.

Neyite · 09-04-2015 04:19PM

daithi84 wrote: »

In most countries the religious and civil are separate. Its the way it should be done here! The Catholic Church should not have responsibility over the legal end, only the religious.

It's not just the RCC though I think? My understanding is that all religions in this country are allowed to do the civil bit in their ceremonies, most notably the humanists getting the accreditation. Before this they could do your wedding, but you had to do the legal bit yourselves another day.

MrWalsh · 09-04-2015 04:26PM

Neyite wrote: »

It's not just the RCC though I think? My understanding is that all religions in this country are allowed to do the civil bit in their ceremonies, most notably the humanists getting the accreditation. Before this they could do your wedding, but you had to do the legal bit yourselves another day.

It should all be separated.

Neyite · 09-04-2015 04:35PM

MrWalsh wrote: »

It should all be separated.

Meh. I don't see the harm in letting the religions stick the civil bit into their services for their congregation. Couples still pay the HSE for it regardless.

I'm more disgusted that it costs a whopping €200 to register for a wedding in this country. Its £45 in the UK to register, with a ceremony cost on top of that for another £45.

pwurple · 09-04-2015 04:35PM

MrWalsh wrote: »

It should all be separated.

Makes no sense. Anyone can already do it separately if they want. Plenty do so...

Current system is straightforward, fair and convenient, as all options are available.

MrWalsh · 09-04-2015 04:43PM

pwurple wrote: »

Makes no sense. Anyone can already do it separately if they want. Plenty do so...

Current system is straightforward, fair and convenient, as all options are available.

Cant agree with this (although as previously mentioned I am not out campaigning for the separation of it) - I just dont think religious matters and state matters should go hand in hand at all.

It gives a false air of authority to holy men when they act on behalf of the state.

And actually the current system is not fair, but may be fair after the referendum.

Its not straighforward either. And with such a low number of civil registrars its actually easier to organise a church wedding - which gives the church yet another hook.

No - I really cant see any good reason for religious orders to perform the civil part of a marriage at all.

pwurple · 09-04-2015 04:53PM

MrWalsh wrote: »

Cant agree with this (although as previously mentioned I am not out campaigning for the separation of it) - I just dont think religious matters and state matters should go hand in hand at all.

It gives a false air of authority to holy men when they act on behalf of the state.

Which bit don't you agree with? It is certainly possible, I've been to at least three wedding ceremonies where people have been legally married separately, and done their own thing in a restaurant, back garden, and on a set of cliffs with their dogs as witnesses.

Rabbis, Priests, Vicars, Shamans, whatever, they already have an air of authority. Why would that make any jot of difference to their air of authority?

MrWalsh wrote: »

Its not straighforward either. And with such a low number of civil registrars its actually easier to organise a church wedding - which gives the church yet another hook.

It's perfectly straightforward. Any fresh-faced 18 year old can manage it...

Sheesh, and if the low numbers of registrars is a problem now, I don't think that would improve after you ban 90% of the current registrars. :pac:

MrWalsh · 09-04-2015 04:59PM

pwurple wrote: »

Which bit don't you agree with?

I dont agree that it makes no sense. It makes a lot of sense.

pwurple wrote: »

Rabbis, Priests, Vicars, Shamans, whatever, they already have an air of authority. Why would that make any jot of difference to their air of authority?

Couldnt care less about their religious authority, dont want to see them behaving as though they have some say over state matters.

pwurple wrote: »

It's perfectly straightforward. Any fresh-faced 18 year old can manage it...

Clearly you know more capable fresh faced 18 year olds than me!

It most certainly is not straightforward and I can tell you that having organised a civil marriage for myself in Ireland and then ditching plans last minute to go do it elsewhere.

pwurple wrote: »

Sheesh, and if the low numbers of registrars is a problem now, I don't think that would improve after you ban 90% of the current registrars. :pac:

Well it would force the HSE to get more registrars on the books and create more jobs. oooh oooh change is bad - nonsense.

Church and State - bad to have the two intermingled, thats how we have the current problems we have the school system.

PhoenixParker · 09-04-2015 05:07PM

I'd love to see it going the other way.
Rather than saying religious orders can't do it to take away their "power" (for want of a better word), take away their power by making it far more of a free for all.

Let almost anyone sign themselves up to be a solemniser. Get rid of all the bottle necks. Priests, pastafarians, your Uncle Bob and anyone else who wants to have a go.

autumnrain · 09-04-2015 05:11PM

There will be no close down over the referendum but if someone tries to legally force a priest/pastor to carry out a same sex marriage in a church, there might be. Not just Catholics would object.
In Germany civil marriage must proceed any other marriage - that's seems simple and clear to me. Then specific religions can have their own rules and people can be members by choice. (Instead of fear of upsetting mammy!)

pwurple · 09-04-2015 05:14PM

Clearly you know more capable fresh faced 18 year olds than me!

It most certainly is not straightforward and I can tell you that having organised a civil marriage for myself in Ireland and then ditching plans last minute to go do it elsewhere.

Ah come on now... you register, you ask for a list of available dates from the civil registrar. You pick one, and off you go. What were you trying to do, get them to travel to outer mongolia or something?

Well it would force the HSE to get more registrars on the books and create more jobs. oooh oooh change is bad - nonsense.

Errrr, Employ a bunch to people to do the same job twice? I take it you don't work anywhere that requires lean production anyway.

Church and State - bad to have the two intermingled, thats how we have the current problems we have the school system.

I think our school system is pretty good (not perfect mind). It has produced one of the best educated populations in the world.

lazygal · 09-04-2015 05:17PM

pwurple wrote: »

I think our school system is pretty good (not perfect mind). It has produced one of the best educated populations in the world.

Lolz. You're not still buying that line peddled by the churches are you?! 20% illiteracy rate anyone? The education system here is pretty average, and the teachers and patronage system don't help.

MrWalsh · 09-04-2015 05:21PM

pwurple wrote: »

Ah come on now... you register, you ask for a list of available dates from the civil registrar. You pick one, and off you go. What were you trying to do, get them to travel to outer mongolia or something?

Nope, it aint that simple. You apply for an appointment to register. In writing mind because apparently email doesnt cut it. Nor does a phone call. Nor can anyone tell you when that appointment might happen because the mysterious calender is not available when you ring, 4 times. Then you wait 3 months for the appointment. The appointment to make the appointment to get married. Which guess what, requires 3 months notice. So now youre at 6 months and all you wanted was a quick and simple civil ceremony!

pwurple wrote: »

Errrr, Employ a bunch to people to do the same job twice? I take it you don't work anywhere that requires lean production anyway.

hahahahaha - you think the HSE does lean production - now that IS funny!

Who would be doing the same job twice? Each register performs the same job every time they perform a marriage ceremony so they perform the same job multiple times. The HSE dont employ priests, the Catholic Church does.

pwurple wrote: »

I think our school system is pretty good (not perfect mind). It has produced one of the best educated populations in the world.

Its excellent im sure, if you can get your kid in. Although I do think you might be deluded on that.

But unless you baptise them you might have a problem getting a kid in in the first place. Lots of recent media and tv coverage of same issue recently. It comes back down to Church and State being intermingled being a bad thing.

Neyite · 09-04-2015 05:24PM

autumnrain wrote: »

There will be no close down over the referendum but if someone tries to legally force a priest/pastor to carry out a same sex marriage in a church, there might be. Not just Catholics would object.
In Germany civil marriage must proceed any other marriage - that's seems simple and clear to me. Then specific religions can have their own rules and people can be members by choice. (Instead of fear of upsetting mammy!)

This is the second time I've read this today on boards. I honestly wonder what hyperbole the church are coming up with to try and get their congregation to vote no on the day.

NOBODY is trying to force priests or pastors to perform same sex weddings! The referendum is about CIVIL weddings. You know, the ones you get in a registry office. Those ones. Nothing to do with the sodding church.

If a church of any denomination decides to choose to perform a same sex wedding, and there are some religions that have no problem with that, then they can choose to do that.

Besides, Priests up and down the country routinely refuse to marry people. They refuse because they are fully booked, or because couples are not from the parish or are not regular mass-goers, or refuse to give blessings to civil marriages because one of them was divorced. Refusing a same sex couple a church wedding should come quite easy to them.

I do agree with the German set up though. They have tax deducted from their income which goes towards their professed faith. So you dont claim to be a Catholic unless you want to hand over some of your wages each month to the RCC. Ditto for the protestant and other religions. If that was introduced here, you'd see a hell of a lot of the a-la-carte Catholics vanish overnight. The next census would be hilarious.

qt3.14 · 09-04-2015 07:08PM

Should just be included in the duties of commissioners for oaths. Every town has a a dozen or more of them.

Toots · 09-04-2015 07:35PM

I think it would be a bad idea to have to do the civil bit and the church bit separately. It makes things needlessly complicated; if you want to get married in a church, that's great, and if that's your choice then I don't see why the priest (who is a registered solemniser) should be able to do the legal bit too. What needs to change is the lack of alternative options. At the moment, it's easy to see why a lot of people choose a church wedding even if they wouldn't be religious - because if they want to have a civil ceremony they're stuck with monday to friday, and if you choose a humanist/spiritualist you'll be waiting ages because there's such a shortage.

They should have a system where you can get a temporary solemniser permit, so say for example you had a family member getting married, you'd be licensed to preform their ceremony for them, but if you wanted to do another one, you'd need to apply again.

blackbird 49 · 09-04-2015 07:55PM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

The problem is then all 20,000 marriages will be down to 107 civil registrants + assorted humanists, unitarians & spirtualists.

More civil registrants won't be employed and trained in overnight.

Very true, I know someone who is a civil registrar and as she has said herself they are working under a tight belt as it is, with not enough registrars as it is

fannymagee · 09-04-2015 09:45PM

As someone currently in training to become a solemniser, I would LOVE this to be true!! But I doubt it. They know which side their bread is buttered ;-)

hardCopy · 09-04-2015 09:45PM

Toots wrote: »

I think it would be a bad idea to have to do the civil bit and the church bit separately. It makes things needlessly complicated; if you want to get married in a church, that's great, and if that's your choice then I don't see why the priest (who is a registered solemniser) should be able to do the legal bit too. What needs to change is the lack of alternative options. At the moment, it's easy to see why a lot of people choose a church wedding even if they wouldn't be religious - because if they want to have a civil ceremony they're stuck with monday to friday, and if you choose a humanist/spiritualist you'll be waiting ages because there's such a shortage.

They should have a system where you can get a temporary solemniser permit, so say for example you had a family member getting married, you'd be licensed to preform their ceremony for them, but if you wanted to do another one, you'd need to apply again.

Let somebody in the hotel register as a solemniser when they register the venue.

pwurple · 10-04-2015 07:52AM

MrWalsh wrote: »

hahahahaha - you think the HSE does lean production - now that IS funny!

Who would be doing the same job twice? Each register performs the same job every time they perform a marriage ceremony so they perform the same job multiple times. The HSE dont employ priests, the Catholic Church does.

You are the one who thinks the HSE would instantly appoint registrars if there was a shortage. Which is a little odd, considering there are people dying on trolleys in HSE run hospitals for lack of nurses and doctors, yet those don't get appointed.

Its excellent im sure, if you can get your kid in. Although I do think you might be deluded on that.

But unless you baptise them you might have a problem getting a kid in in the first place. Lots of recent media and tv coverage of same issue recently. It comes back down to Church and State being intermingled being a bad thing.

My children are enrolled in a school. No baptism was asked for, probably because it's not RC. Try to consider the minority religions in this country. I understand the ex-catholics have a particular desire to get rid of everything catholic, but what would be the reason to try to stamp out the episcopalian community?

I fundamentally disagree on church run schools being a bad thing. Publically funded, with private school boards is a really superb way of running schools. It's one of the few things this country gets right. Remember when our hospitals were run the same way? A matron overseeing the wards. The places were immaculate, patients were cared for. Now, we have meals plonked in front of stroke patients who can't feed themselves and taken away again uneaten, people dying of dehydration, mrsa rampant. Run by 9to5 hse jobsworths who don't give two shlts. Compare any public hospital in this country with one of the bons secours ones. It's like night and day. And you want to shove our good quality education system into the same state? No thanks.

Church Marriage - Post Marriage Referendum

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