Church Marriage - Post Marriage Referendum

hardCopy · 09-04-2015 09:46AM #1

Hi Folks,

I head mention on the radio this morning that the RC Church have apparently said they will no longer facilitate civil registration of marriage in the church if the referendum passes.

I've tried googling it but couldn't find anything to back it up.

We're due to be married in September and planning to head off on honeymoon pretty much straight away. I'm wondering now if we should be trying to book a registry office for the civil registration.

Did I pick this up correctly on the radio? Has anyone else thought about planning around this?

fits · 09-04-2015 09:49AM

Lol. I hope they carry out that threat. But they wont bite the hand that feeds them.

MrWalsh · 09-04-2015 09:49AM

Wow - that would be an excellent result!

Manach · 09-04-2015 10:01AM

Just another win in the PC Brigades campaign to re-shape society.

PhoenixParker · 09-04-2015 10:15AM

It'd cause a disaster with marriages in this country.
Catholic priests account for 4429 of the 5789 individuals permitted to carry out marriages in this country. I think catholic marriages account for something like 60% of the 20,000 marriages in this country annually.

It's already tough enough to line up a non-religious wedding without adding those on top of it.

MrWalsh · 09-04-2015 10:17AM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

It'd cause a disaster with marriages in this country.
Catholic priests account for 4429 of the 5789 individuals permitted to carry out marriages in this country. I think catholic marriages account for something like 60% of the 20,000 marriages in this country annually.

It's already tough enough to line up a non-religious wedding without adding those on top of it.

It doesnt cause a disaster in all those other countries where Catholic priests do not also carry out the civil part of the marriage.

Actually itd be great for Enda and co, Get Ireland Working - 4429 jobs automatically created for celebrants! Its not like the priests would be made redundant.

Daith · 09-04-2015 10:23AM

Well The Association of Catholic Priests aren't actually taking a position on the referendum.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholic-priests-group-won-t-take-stance-on-referendum-1.2151414

I'm curious what station it was on as I'm surprised it wasn't reported anywhere.

pwurple · 09-04-2015 10:24AM

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Was that some tabloid interpretation of something?

lazygal · 09-04-2015 10:28AM

I'd love a system where everyone has to have a state ceremony and can then do whatever they want after that. We did this ourselves when we got married.

lazygal · 09-04-2015 10:29AM

Manach wrote: »

Just another win in the PC Brigades campaign to re-shape society.

It's brilliant, isn't it.

MrWalsh · 09-04-2015 10:36AM

Manach wrote: »

Just another win in the PC Brigades campaign to re-shape society.

Yes, I would be delighted too!

hardCopy · 09-04-2015 10:38AM

Daith wrote: »

Well The Association of Catholic Priests aren't actually taking a position on the referendum.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholic-priests-group-won-t-take-stance-on-referendum-1.2151414

I'm curious what station it was on as I'm surprised it wasn't reported anywhere.

It was on Newstalk Breakfast. I'm going through the listen back on their website to see if I heard it right.

Please don't take me as a source for this, I came hear hoping someone else would know more. It's entirely possible I just heard wrong.

EDIT: It was from an article by Bruce Arnold based on his interpretation of the Same Sex Marriage Bill and the Conference of Bishops submission to the Constitutional Convention - so nothing set in stone

http://www.brucearnold.ie/files/unforseen-unintended-consequences.html
https://www.constitution.ie/AttachmentDownload.ashx?aid=30ff9f60-ab94-e211-a5a0-005056a32ee4 - Section 29

PhoenixParker · 09-04-2015 10:47AM

MrWalsh wrote: »

It doesnt cause a disaster in all those other countries where Catholic priests do not also carry out the civil part of the marriage.

Actually itd be great for Enda and co, Get Ireland Working - 4429 jobs automatically created for celebrants! Its not like the priests would be made redundant.

It doesn't cause disaster in other countries because they have different systems.
It needn't cause disaster here if we change our system, but until we do there's going to be a problem if the priests withdraw suddenly.

MrWalsh · 09-04-2015 10:49AM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

It doesn't cause disaster in other countries because they have different systems.
It needn't cause disaster here if we change our system, but until we do there's going to be a problem if the priests withdraw suddenly.

Well people can still go ahead with their religious marriage and just have the civil bit handled later on.

PhoenixParker · 09-04-2015 10:51AM

MrWalsh wrote: »

Well people can still go ahead with their religious marriage and just have the civil bit handled later on.

The problem is then all 20,000 marriages will be down to 107 civil registrants + assorted humanists, unitarians & spirtualists.

More civil registrants won't be employed and trained in overnight.

MrWalsh · 09-04-2015 10:56AM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

The problem is then all 20,000 marriages will be down to 107 civil registrants + assorted humanists, unitarians & spirtualists.

More civil registrants won't be employed and trained in overnight.

No, but people who were getting married in a church will still have the day out and the religious blessing (which presumably was important to them in the first place otherwise they wouldnt have booked a church wedding right?) and they can just get the legal bit sorted in due course.

Or is it that you think people with a church wedding booked would cancel unless the civil bit could be done at the same time? I guess that could happen, but I would have thought people would just carry on and do the legal bit when they can later.

And then for anyone who hasnt a wedding booked yet they would have to go on the waiting list for the earliest appointment. Itd probably result in a lot of people going away to get married somewhere that the rules are quick and easy until things settled down but I dont see why the HSE couldnt get the ball rolling and get new celebrants up and running in a matter of months.

edit - its the HSE - what am I thinking, yeah it could be years before they sort it.

pwurple · 09-04-2015 11:06AM

hardCopy wrote: »

It was on Newstalk Breakfast. I'm going through the listen back on their website to see if I heard it right.

Please don't take me as a source for this, I came hear hoping someone else would know more. It's entirely possible I just heard wrong.

EDIT: It was from an article by Bruce Arnold based on his interpretation of the Same Sex Marriage Bill and the Conference of Bishops submission to the Constitutional Convention - so nothing set in stone

http://www.brucearnold.ie/files/unforseen-unintended-consequences.html
https://www.constitution.ie/AttachmentDownload.ashx?aid=30ff9f60-ab94-e211-a5a0-005056a32ee4 - Section 29

So, the source is a newstalk interpretation of a blogger's interpretations of something else?

Yeah... I think I'd be filing this one under nonsense.

MrWalsh · 09-04-2015 11:07AM

pwurple wrote: »

Yeah... I think I'd be filing this one under nonsense.

Im going to file it under wishful thinking......

Daith · 09-04-2015 11:08AM

hardCopy wrote: »

EDIT: It was from an article by Bruce Arnold based on his interpretation of the Same Sex Marriage Bill and the Conference of Bishops submission to the Constitutional Convention - so nothing set in stone

http://www.brucearnold.ie/files/unforseen-unintended-consequences.html
https://www.constitution.ie/AttachmentDownload.ashx?aid=30ff9f60-ab94-e211-a5a0-005056a32ee4 - Section 29

Ah Bruce is basing his argument on nothing. I wouldn't worry about it.

pwurple · 09-04-2015 11:10AM

MrWalsh wrote: »

Im going to file it under wishful thinking......

Planning your divorce already?

vibe666 · 09-04-2015 11:16AM

time to get ordained as a minister for the church of the flying spaghetti monster methinks, you'll be quids in and flat out 24/7 marrying people before you know it!

http://www.venganza.org/ordination/

you get a certificate and a card for your wallet and everything. :pac:

PhoenixParker · 09-04-2015 11:27AM

vibe666 wrote: »

time to get ordained as a minister for the church of the flying spaghetti monster methinks, you'll be quids in and flat out 24/7 marrying people before you know it!

http://www.venganza.org/ordination/

you get a certificate and a card for your wallet and everything. :pac:

Not permitted to carry out ceremonies in Ireland.
Yet anyway.

MrWalsh · 09-04-2015 11:44AM

pwurple wrote: »

Planning your divorce already?

Good to be prepared

Arbiter of Good Taste · 09-04-2015 11:46AM

To those of you who are jumping up and down with joy, why? Just because you don't want a religious ceremony (though I bet some of you will have it anyway for the "day out"...), what business is it of yours if someone else does? It's a really sh1tty, intolerent attitude to be honest.

It will be a pain in the a$$ for everyone as now the civil system will be inundated with people who would otherwise have had it sorted in the church.

MrWalsh · 09-04-2015 11:50AM

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

To those of you who are jumping up and down with joy, why?

Because anything in this country that lessens the Churches influence is only a good thing - imo.

People can still have religious ceremonies if they choose - nothing intolerant there.

PhoenixParker · 09-04-2015 01:28PM

MrWalsh wrote: »

Because anything in this country that lessens the Churches influence is only a good thing - imo.

People can still have religious ceremonies if they choose - nothing intolerant there.

I'd love to see Ireland go down the self-certification route. I mean we already have the three months notice meeting with the registrar so why not just hand you the paperwork, let you sign it at your leisure and return it 3 - 9 months later. Have a second confirmatory interview at that point if you really want to be thorough.

Let the celebrant role be replaced by a third witness who can be anyone or if one wanted to be cautions anyone meeting a very broad range of criteria. The list of people who can witness aspects of a passport application springs to mind:

Member of the Garda Síochána
Member of clergy
Medical doctor
Lawyer
Bank manager/assistant bank manager
Elected public representative
Notary public/ commissioner for oaths
Peace commissioner
School principal/vice principal
Accountant

Feck all this registered solemnisers nonsense.

arayess · 09-04-2015 01:31PM

MrWalsh wrote: »

Wow - that would be an excellent result!

MrWalsh wrote: »

Because anything in this country that lessens the Churches influence is only a good thing - imo.

People can still have religious ceremonies if they choose - nothing intolerant there.

but why would it bother you if the church is also the civil registration - as is now.?
want civil go civil - want both religious and civil go to church.

You seem like a strange individual with your petty delights.

MrWalsh · 09-04-2015 01:46PM

arayess wrote: »

You seem like a strange individual with your petty delights.

LOL!

I do like my petty delights, oh yes I do

arayess · 09-04-2015 01:50PM

MrWalsh wrote: »

LOL!

I do like my petty delights, oh yes I do

actually fair play to you

MrWalsh · 09-04-2015 01:58PM

arayess wrote: »

actually fair play to you

But to answer your question seriously, a lot of people who get married in Churches only do so for the venue, not for the religion, but they are "cultural catholics" who then go on to tick Catholic in the census.

If people also had to have a separate civil ceremony, and the HSE had more celebrants (so the wait wasnt as long as it can be even now) and they relaxed up the rules regarding venue (ie, allowed outdoor weddings or weddings in forests etc...) which they would be more likely to do with more people putting pressure on - then we would have less of this cultural catholic nonsense.

The Catholic Church uses the census figures to influence social policy so for example we have situations where children are not given access to the local school unless they have a baptismal cert - so people get them baptised to perpetuate the myth.

The whole things feeds on itself and I dont believe the Church should have a hand in matters of the state and they currently do with Catholic priests also doing the civil bit of a marriage (as well as other areas).

Separation of Church and State is a good thing imo.

arayess · 09-04-2015 02:04PM

MrWalsh wrote: »

But to answer your question seriously, a lot of people who get married in Churches only do so for the venue, not for the religion, but they are "cultural catholics" who then go on to tick Catholic in the census.

If people also had to have a separate civil ceremony, and the HSE had more celebrants (so the wait wasnt as long as it can be even now) and they relaxed up the rules regarding venue (ie, allowed outdoor weddings or weddings in forests etc...) which they would be more likely to do with more people putting pressure on - then we would have less of this cultural catholic nonsense.

The Catholic Church uses the census figures to influence social policy so for example we have situations where children are not given access to the local school unless they have a baptismal cert - so people get them baptised to perpetuate the myth.

The whole things feeds on itself and I dont believe the Church should have a hand in matters of the state and they currently do with Catholic priests also doing the civil bit of a marriage (as well as other areas).

Separation of Church and State is a good thing imo.

I don't disagree but i disagree with your methods on this whether your ceremony is religious or civil - the full legal aspect should be cover imo.
It's just bureaucracy (more of it) otherwise.

I love seeing the pressure people are under to have a church weddings , it fills me with joy seeing some oh-so-cool militant atheist who clogs social media ranting about the church fall into line for some perceived fear of being the cause of granny's heart attack.
I've been to 5 weddings of these types (i know you were going to ask

)

The funny thing is I doubt anybody ever asked granny's opinion :pac::pac:

Church Marriage - Post Marriage Referendum

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