1000 year old cure for MRSA

renegademaster · 31-03-2015 11:05AM

househero wrote: »

St Js causes anxiety and has been linked to suicide. Although if Irish authorities were really concerned about suicide, alcahol would be banned.

Your not going to eat an onion garlic and cow guts to get better, unless you are a retarded hippy.

The Irish "authorities" need to read up on the possible side effects of taking prescribed anti-depressants

Retarded hippy wtf?

ohnonotgmail · 31-03-2015 11:11AM

renegademaster wrote: »

The Irish "authorities" need to read up on the possible side effects of taking prescribed anti-depressants

Retarded hippy wtf?

but at least these anti-depressants would be taken under the supervision of a doctor. Not sold over the counter of a "health" shop or bough online.

dr.fuzzenstein · 31-03-2015 11:31AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

well if they cant make money from it they wont produce it.

Which is exactly the point.
My wife worked for 10 years in a pharmaceutical. There where meetings upon meetings on production, output, streamlining, increasing productivity, profitability and everything else you can think of.
What was the one thing no pharmaceutical has ever had a single meeting about?
The end user.
If something does something and can be sold for a profit and enough of the pill-dumpsters (sorry, patients) survive, it's go. If that something is medicine number 56462782734564 for staying slim, it doesn't matter.
If there was a €5 cure for AIDS, it would either be ignored or bought up and buried in the deepest vault on Earth.
That's fine if you're an investment banker, we're used to them being vermin, but when you're producing life saving medicine for people, a little bit of altruism should intrude into your value system.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

but at least these anti-depressants would be taken under the supervision of a doctor. Not sold over the counter of a "health" shop or bough online.

Point in case is the outlawing of herbal remedies that have worked for thousands of years and are harmless over pharmaceutical, chemical remedies that we KNOW kill thousands of people with side effects and I include anti-depressants that will drive you to suicide. Oh yes, that is MUCH better than St John's Wort. And of course now the doctor gets his €60 and pharma get their cut on the pills.
We in ireland have fallon over ourselves to just use patients as pill-dumpsters over natural remedies and counseling. it's a case of "I don't wanna hear it, here's some pills" We're supposed to worship the men in white coats as Gods and never question what they give us.

ohnonotgmail · 31-03-2015 11:45AM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Which is exactly the point.
My wife worked for 10 years in a pharmaceutical. There where meetings upon meetings on production, output, streamlining, increasing productivity, profitability and everything else you can think of.
What was the one thing no pharmaceutical has ever had a single meeting about?
The end user.
If something does something and can be sold for a profit and enough of the pill-dumpsters (sorry, patients) survive, it's go. If that something is medicine number 56462782734564 for staying slim, it doesn't matter.
If there was a €5 cure for AIDS, it would either be ignored or bought up and buried in the deepest vault on Earth.
That's fine if you're an investment banker, we're used to them being vermin, but when you're producing life saving medicine for people, a little bit of altruism should intrude into your value system.

Point in case is the outlawing of herbal remedies that have worked for thousands of years and are harmless over pharmaceutical, chemical remedies that we KNOW kill thousands of people with side effects and I include anti-depressants that will drive you to suicide. Oh yes, that is MUCH better than St John's Wort. And of course now the doctor gets his €60 and pharma get their cut on the pills.
We in ireland have fallon over ourselves to just use patients as pill-dumpsters over natural remedies and counseling. it's a case of "I don't wanna hear it, here's some pills" We're supposed to worship the men in white coats as Gods and never question what they give us.

If that is how your doctor treats you then find another doctor.

Herbal, natural <> safe. What about the side-affects of St Johns Wort? Who decides what dose to take or for how long? Who monitors the side-affects? who makes the diagnosis that St Johns Wort would be effective? Who determines that there are no interactions that with other drugs you may be taking?

Taking St. John’s wort extracts improves mood, and decreases anxiety and insomnia related to depression. It seems to be about as effective in treating depression as many prescription drugs. In fact, clinical guidelines from the American College of Physicians-American Society of Internal Medicine suggest that St. John’s wort can be considered an option along with antidepressant medications for short-term treatment of mild depression. However, since St. John’s wort does not appear to be more effective or significantly better tolerated than antidepressant medications, and since St. John’s wort causes many drug interactions, the guidelines suggest it might not be an appropriate choice for many people, particularly those who take other medications. St. John’s wort might not be as effective for more severe cases of depression.

So no better than any other medication for mild depression.

Big list of side-effects, contra-indications and interactions. http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-329-st%20john%27s%20wort.aspx?activeingredientid=329&activeingredientname=st%20john%27s%20wort

dr.fuzzenstein · 31-03-2015 11:56AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

If that is how your doctor treats you then find another doctor.

Herbal, natural <> safe. What about the side-affects of St Johns Wort? Who decides what dose to take or for how long? Who monitors the side-affects? who makes the diagnosis that St Johns Wort would be effective? Who determines that there are no interactions that with other drugs you may be taking?

So no better than any other medication for mild depression.

Big list of side-effects, contra-indications and interactions. http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-329-st%20john%27s%20wort.aspx?activeingredientid=329&activeingredientname=st%20john%27s%20wort

Haven't taken it, was just listing it as an example. Most of what I take, I can't pronounce, my Chinese is lousy. I leave that up to my herbalist.
As for changing my doctor, I haven't been one in over 10 or even 15 years. never had the need.

As for all those wonderful and safe prescription drugs:
http://www.alternet.org/story/147318/100,000_americans_die_each_year_from_prescription_drugs,_while_pharma_companies_get_rich
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/05/07/death-by-prescription-drugs-is-a-growing-problem/
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/11/20/how-pharmaceuticals-came-to-be-the-4th-leading-cause-of-death-in-america/

No thanks, I can die without the help of prescription medicine.

ohnonotgmail · 31-03-2015 12:07PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Haven't taken it, was just listing it as an example. Most of what I take, I can't pronounce, my Chinese is lousy. I leave that up to my herbalist.
As for changing my doctor, I haven't been one in over 10 or even 15 years. never had the need.

As for all those wonderful and safe prescription drugs:
http://www.alternet.org/story/147318/100,000_americans_die_each_year_from_prescription_drugs,_while_pharma_companies_get_rich
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/05/07/death-by-prescription-drugs-is-a-growing-problem/
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/11/20/how-pharmaceuticals-came-to-be-the-4th-leading-cause-of-death-in-america/

No thanks, I can die without the help of prescription medicine.

so you havent been to a doctor in 10-15 years but seem to be an expert on how they work. brilliant.

So you take drugs ( and they are drugs, forget the herbal bit ) but you dont know what they are? You dont even know what they are called. based on recommendations from a herbalist. What qualifications does this herbalist have? I bet you dont know. What blind studies have been done to confirm the efficacy of what you are taking? have there been any at all. Again, i bet you dont know. Your post reeks of ignorance.

and your links are irrelevant. There are risks with taking any medication. The benefits of prescription medication far outweigh the risks.

jimgoose · 31-03-2015 12:10PM

It seems to me the sooner all these blasted Chemicals are outlawed the better. We'll have to evolve into ethereal pan-galactic beings consisting of pure intellect first, what with there being no longer any such thing as Matter, but at least that means there'll be no more politicians.

More seriously, a hell of a lot of modern pharmaceuticals have their origin in naturally-occurring, often plant-derived, substances. The Big Pharma trick is usually mainly to do with pure synthesis of the active substances and packaging.

ohnonotgmail · 31-03-2015 12:19PM

jimgoose wrote: »

It seems to me the sooner all these blasted Chemicals are outlawed the better. We'll have to evolve into ethereal pan-galactic beings consisting of pure intellect first, what with there being no longer any such thing as Matter, but at least that means there'll be no more politicians.

More seriously, a hell of a lot of modern pharmaceuticals have their origin in naturally-occurring, often plant-derived, substances. The Big Pharma trick is usually mainly to do with pure synthesis of the active substances and packaging.

Its not a trick. It is hard, expensive work.well first of all you have find the active substance. The you isolate it. Then you figure out how to synthetise it. then you have to perform double-blind trials that conform to regulations. All of which is very expensive.

jimgoose · 31-03-2015 12:20PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Its not a trick. It is hard, expensive work.well first of all you have find the active substance. The you isolate it. Then you figure out how to synthetise it. then you have to perform double-blind trials that conform to regulations. All of which is very expensive.

Yes, I know that. Most tricks worth doing are hard and expensive.

ohnonotgmail · 31-03-2015 12:21PM

jimgoose wrote: »

Yes, I know that. Most tricks worth doing are hard and expensive.

Indeed. Just clarifying for the sake of others.

dr.fuzzenstein · 31-03-2015 12:42PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so you havent been to a doctor in 10-15 years but seem to be an expert on how they work. brilliant.

So you take drugs ( and they are drugs, forget the herbal bit ) but you dont know what they are? You dont even know what they are called. based on recommendations from a herbalist. What qualifications does this herbalist have? I bet you dont know. What blind studies have been done to confirm the efficacy of what you are taking? have there been any at all. Again, i bet you dont know. Your post reeks of ignorance.

and your links are irrelevant. There are risks with taking any medication. The benefits of prescription medication far outweigh the risks.

I have seen how they work. They are brilliant when you need patching up. Bypass, broken bones, in fact any major surgery, absolutely brilliant.
Pain medication, antibiotics, sure thing, I've had both. Brilliant when needed.
But the problem is, going to the doctor for every ache and pain, sneeze, feeling under the weather, things you don't really need to see the doc for, or even if do you err on the side of caution, you would rather leave with a prescription. Doc and pharma industry happy to oblige.
A lot of chronic conditions that western medicine only has steroids, cortisone and pain medication for to, at best, manage symptoms whilst ignoring the underlying condition and of course the classic anti-depressent. We Irish gobble those things down like gummi bears.
It should be councelling (IMO exercise, eat well and maybe do something for others before thinking of yourself) first, before "yeah, yeah, here's a pill" and that has been well documented.
As for qualifications, acupuncture foundation of Ireland, TCM with a special course in herbalism, in conjunction with the university of Nanjing including working in a hospital over there.
It's funny how in that hemisphere both disciplines can work side by side, but in the West, which is in pharma's pocket, the mere mention of complimentary medicine causes flecks of foam to appear on most of the proponents of "Western and nothing else!".
Note, I said complimentary, not alternative. There are some good and well-qualified practitioners out there.
As for tests? They have been ongoing for 3000 years. It is by now known what will treat and and what will kill you.

The_Captain · 31-03-2015 12:43PM

it almost completely wiped out staphylococcus aureus, otherwise known as MRSA.

Oh dear.

Staphlococcus Aureus is easily treatable and simple to kill. We used to grow cultures of it in college all the time. You can literally kill off an entire infection with any antibiotic

Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus is a different story, and is extremely difficult to treat. It usually requires a combination of surgery and a range of antibiotics taken together

ohnonotgmail · 31-03-2015 12:49PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I have seen how they work. They are brilliant when you need patching up. Bypass, broken bones, in fact any major surgery, absolutely brilliant.
Pain medication, antibiotics, sure thing, I've had both. Brilliant when needed.
But the problem is, going to the doctor for every ache and pain, sneeze, feeling under the weather, things you don't really need to see the doc for, or even if do you err on the side of caution, you would rather leave with a prescription. Doc and pharma industry happy to oblige.

Again, you are going to the wrong doctor. Or you have traveled back in time 20 years. That attitude is changing.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

A lot of chronic conditions that western medicine only has steroids, cortisone and pain medication for to, at best, manage symptoms whilst ignoring the underlying condition and of course the classic anti-depressent. We Irish gobble those things down like gummi bears.

You mean anti-depressants like St Johns Wort? that is what the thread is about.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It should be councelling (IMO exercise, eat well and maybe do something for others before thinking of yourself) first, before "yeah, yeah, here's a pill" and that has been well documented.

Agreed. But not everything can be solved with a diet change and exercise.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

As for qualifications, acupuncture foundation of Ireland, TCM with a special course in herbalism, in conjunction with the university of Nanjing including working in a hospital over there.
It's funny how in that hemisphere both disciplines can work side by side, but in the West, which is in pharma's pocket, the mere mention of complimentary medicine causes flecks of foam to appear on most of the proponents of "Western and nothing else!".
Note, I said complimentary, not alternative. There are some good and well-qualified practitioners out there.
As for tests? They have been ongoing for 3000 years. It is by now known what will treat and and what will kill you.

Flecks of foam? I think you've just described yourself. and you didnt say if you knew what you are actually taking. i presume you dont.

dr.fuzzenstein · 31-03-2015 01:09PM

I could get you a list, but whatever I take is none of yours.
What I do know is that what I take is natural, tested for thousands of years and prescribed by someone whom I trust and is qualified.
You're willing to discount and entire medical system, but I'm not. Either one.

ohnonotgmail · 31-03-2015 01:10PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I could get you a list, but whatever I take is none of yours.
What I do know is that what I take is natural, tested for thousands of years and prescribed by someone whom I trust and is qualified.
You're willing to discount and entire medical system, but I'm not. Either one.

I never asked what you take. Nor do i care. i asked if you knew. which you evidently dont.

dr.fuzzenstein · 31-03-2015 01:18PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I never asked what you take. Nor do i care. i asked if you knew. which you evidently dont.

So, you're willing to reject an entire medical system out of hand. I don't, neither one.
I can find out exactly what I'm taking, every single ingredient. I would recognise every one of them. Would a western doctor do that? Do you have an exact list of what goes into what you're taking? Would you even know what half of it is?

Tordelback · 31-03-2015 01:20PM

I sincerely wish those who believe 'traditional remedies are best' could be given a chance to live even 100 years ago, never mind 1,000. See how that goes for them. I'd give good money that they'd be pleading for 'big pharma' to come save them within the year, regardless of how much garlic and honey they smeared themselves with.

ohnonotgmail · 31-03-2015 01:22PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

So, you're willing to reject an entire medical system out of hand. I don't, neither one.

If what they are giving you works so well then put it through a proper double-blind trial. preferably multiple trials.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I can find out exactly what I'm taking, every single ingredient. I would recognise every one of them. Would a western doctor do that? Do you have an exact list of what goes into what you're taking? Would you even know what half of it is?

i do have an exact list of everything i am taking. there is a leaflet in every packet specifying what is included which also lists side-effects. So i do know what i'm taking. which is more than you can say. how do you know they are not giving you placebos?

dr.fuzzenstein · 31-03-2015 01:38PM

Tordelback wrote: »

I sincerely wish those who believe 'traditional remedies are best' could be given a chance to live even 100 years ago, never mind 1,000. See how that goes for them. I'd give good money that they'd be pleading for 'big pharma' to come save them within the year, regardless of how much garlic and honey they smeared themselves with.

It should be complimentary (as well as) and not alternative (instead of).
You've got something seriously wrong with you, get yourself to a doctor and a hospital. Western medicine is brilliant for the right things and i wouldn't want to do without it.
But there are a lot of people who will trudge to the doctor for every tiny sniffle they have, because to them western is god and nothing else counts.
Where do you think they got their ideas and ingredients from?
Especially the Irish worship at the altar of western medicine, you guys dump pills down your throat like it's going out of fashion. There is no need for at least half of it.
We scare people into thinking that all natural remedies are hokum (why are they used as the basis for medicine then?) and only a pharmaceutical remedy, prescribed by your doctor will cure you from the dreaded sniffles.
That's all I am going to say on the subject. I know what Ireland is like when it comes to authority figures (church, state, gardai, etc...) you blindly believe everything they tell you and that all they do is only with your best interest at heart. Nothing to do with exploiting people and taking them for everything they have.
You do whatever you think is right and I do likewise.
Have you ever considered that it doesn't HAVE to be one or the other?

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

If what they are giving you works so well then put it through a proper double-blind trial. preferably multiple trials.

i do have an exact list of everything i am taking. there is a leaflet in every packet specifying what is included which also lists side-effects. So i do know what i'm taking. which is more than you can say. how do you know they are not giving you placebos?

Sorry, I don't have the time for those trials right now. :P
If you know exactly what you're taking, maybe you should look it up more closely.

ohnonotgmail · 31-03-2015 01:47PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

We scare people into thinking that all natural remedies are hokum (why are they used as the basis for medicine then?) .

If they are used as the basis of a medicine then they have been put through proper regulated trials. You use this word natural like it has some magical meaning. People have been taking willow bark for headaches for hundreds if not more years. Do they still use it now? No, they take an aspirin which is the same thing. As aspirin is as natural as willow bark. On a chemical level they are pretty much the same. But with aspirin you know exactly what is in and what dose to take. that is the difference between your "natural" remedies and medicine.
Nobody here has said that all natural remedies are hokum. But the ones that arent are now incorporated in regular medicine.

ohnonotgmail · 31-03-2015 01:47PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Sorry, I don't have the time for those trials right now. :P
If you know exactly what you're taking, maybe you should look it up more closely.

Live happily in your ignorance.

dr.fuzzenstein · 31-03-2015 01:53PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Live happily in your ignorance.

You're the one that's ignorant if you happily ignore the fact that western medicine kills hundreds of thousands of people. By a conservative estimate.
It's funny how all the media and pharma screams blue murder if one person dies and there was any kind of herbal remedy involved, but all is curiously silent on the statistics of how many people die by the "correct" medicine. I wonder why...

ohnonotgmail · 31-03-2015 01:59PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

You're the one that's ignorant if you happily ignore the fact that western medicine kills hundreds of thousands of people.

As opposed to the millions who would die if all we had were "natural" remedies?

its doing a fantastic job of keeping me alive so all is well.

Akrasia · 31-03-2015 02:00PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

So, you're willing to reject an entire medical system out of hand. I don't, neither one.
I can find out exactly what I'm taking, every single ingredient.

You really really can't. Your one 'ingredient' can have dozens of chemical compounds many of which could have physiological effects. Also, the dosages would vary significanlty depending on many factors including the condition of the ingredient, the method of preparation, the growing conditions of the ingredients etc.

When we talk about medicines, a few miligrams here and there can make a big difference.

I would recognise every one of them. Would a western doctor do that? Do you have an exact list of what goes into what you're taking? Would you even know what half of it is?

Reconising ingredients is a long away from understanding the physiological effects of each of the chemical compounds, and how they co-interact inside the human body.

GPs should be familiar with the medicines they prescribe, but they don't need to be pharmacists, that's why we have pharmacists.
But even pharmacists don't need to know every chemical interaction. Most drugs are extensively tested and approved for various conditions and contra-indicated for others. If a gp is 'going off label' and prescribing medicines for conditions they are not tested for, then the GPs are taking risks and ought to be extra careful in these circumstances to ensure they are not putting their patients at unnecessary risk.

'Natural medicine' does not have any of these safety structures in place. While individuals may believe that they know how the herbal remedies work, in fact, it's impossible for one individual to keep up to date on all the latest and highest quality research in order to protect patients.

The general rule is, if a medicine is effective at treating illness, it's also likely to be toxic at the wrong dose, or when interacting with other medicines.

Duggy747 · 31-03-2015 02:27PM

Didn't take long for this article to be used as a stick to beat "western medicine" with.

ohnonotgmail · 31-03-2015 02:29PM

Duggy747 wrote: »

Didn't take long for this article to be used as a stick to beat "western medicine" with.

In fairness it did take until the second page. That must be some sort of record.

dr.fuzzenstein · 31-03-2015 02:47PM

Duggy747 wrote: »

Didn't take long for this article to be used as a stick to beat "western medicine" with.

In every single post I stressed that western medicine is great for what it does well and that I wouldn't want to do without it. It's the usual attitude of "ye all live in caves and smear toad slime in your hair whilst reciting mystical incantations" attitude that I have found more prevalent here.
Why? because I dared to suggest that maybe we shouldn't immediately run to the doctor and demand pills if we have the sniffles.

Ghost Buster · 31-03-2015 02:49PM

Suas11 wrote: »

"big pharma"

Ugh

An ism which makes me want to strangle every goat rearing German in Leitrim.

jimgoose · 31-03-2015 02:50PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

In every single post I stressed that western medicine is great for what it does well and that I wouldn't want to do without it. It's the usual attitude of "ye all live in caves and smear toad slime in your hair whilst reciting mystical incantations" attitude that I have found more prevalent here.
Why? because I dared to suggest that maybe we shouldn't immediately run to the doctor and demand pills if we have the sniffles.

I agree. I'm a fan both of modern and ancient medicines and techniques. There's a lot to be said for eating well, taking plenty of fish-oils and fruit and veg. And bear in mind the amount of qualified, professional GPs doling out the antibiotics for viral conditions, thus slowly but carefully eroding the one silver bullet we really have against a hideous, agonising, premature death.

Ghost Buster · 31-03-2015 02:51PM

[QUOTE=donegaLroad;94899401]We are catching up with ancient knowledge. The spider's web for example, was commonly used to dress wounds in ancient times, as there was a percentage of penicillin contained in the silk which would protect the wound from fungal and bacterial attack.[/QUOTE]

My 9 year old could see the daftness of that bit in bold from watching a few episodes of Horrible Histories

1000 year old cure for MRSA

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