Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

MaxWig wrote: »

Again, the point can't be stressed enough. Religion is not a form of manipulation. The idea that you can differentiate yourself from those around you, be better than them is what separate us. Cultural heroism, or whatever you wish to call it is the issue. That is, 'I am right, more right. Mine is the right way. Ours is the right way.' This is the crux of the problem . It really makes very little difference what the 'right way' is.

but imagine or even if you do accept that Christianity and Judaism are false. Then it would be insanity to look to them for moral guides as it would be to base a society on any primitive society. Again I will revert to the blow back that homosexual people have had to suffer for the last several hundred years.

silverharp wrote: »

but imagine or even if you do accept that Christianity and Judaism are false. Then it would be insanity to look to them for moral guides as it would be to base a society on any primitive society. Again I will revert to the blow back that homosexual people have had to suffer for the last several hundred years.

And women, and black people, and Jews, and gypsies etc. etc.

Religion did not create our mistrust of difference. We reflected that mistrust in what we created. But the idea that by removing religion, you remove the mistrust is a fallacy.

We have no moral guides. We create them. And by creating them, we imbue them with the folly intrinsic to our view of the world.

For me, atheism in it's pure sense is a valid, and justifiable stance. But as soon as you start looking at religion, and blaming it for this or that - you're back in the same loop that you are trying in vain to escape/eradicate.

An awful lot of the writings in religious texts make sense. An awful lot are insane. What does that remind you of? The human condition!

Our minds are unlimited in their scope of investigation, but our ability to pursue those unlimited horizons are hopelessly betrayed by our mortality, fears and weakness.

MaxWig wrote: »

Religion doesn't demand anything. It's leader's do.





Religion doesn't convict people of anything. Sorry to be pedantic, but the language is important here. Religion is if anything a framework - a system of belief that aims to guide people through the difficulties associated with being alive. The variations that you are talking about are circumstantial.

Saying that we are born sinners, is akin to saying that we are born with the potential for great evil. I don't go along with the idea of sin, as I'm sure you don't, but if I read that language as a representation of the human condition in a novel or secular text, I wouldn't object on the grounds of inaccuracy.



If religion caused people to live only lives of misery, it would have died out long ago. People seem quite happy to be religious.



Quoting the bible, and taking it literally is - I don't know - I don't have words for it. What is your point? "The books says 'I demand your obedience' - so there. Religion is bad"

That's worse than the lads you see with the sandwich boards going on about the end of days.

'Thou shalt have no other gods before me' the first commandment demands complete obedience above other (which apparently there are many) gods.

Then you have the "Thou shall not covets.........."

The very act of thinking can convict a person of committing a sin even though god commanded the Israelites to covet the lands of its neighbors!

I'm sure you should be familiar with the Original Sin we are all guilty off? Well then, we are all unworthy of god, he then commanded us to make ourselves worthy by giving him total love and total obedience in return for him allowing us obtain eternal life! If not we are reward with eternal damnation!

I cannot see how you can defend religion if you reject its basic concepts and scriptures?

MaxWig wrote: »

And women, and black people, and Jews, and gypsies etc. etc.

Religion did not create our mistrust of difference. We reflected that mistrust in what we created. But the idea that by removing religion, you remove the mistrust is a fallacy.

We have no moral guides. We create them. And by creating them, we imbue them with the folly intrinsic to our view of the world.

For me, atheism in it's pure sense is a valid, and justifiable stance. But as soon as you start looking at religion, and blaming it for this or that - you're back in the same loop that you are trying in vain to escape/eradicate.

An awful lot of the writings in religious texts make sense. An awful lot are insane. What does that remind you of? The human condition!

Our minds are unlimited in their scope of investigation, but our ability to pursue those unlimited horizons are hopelessly betrayed by our mortality, fears and weakness.

But an atheist is able to adapt to reality abased on science in a more natural way, religious people not so much. For instance back to my gay teacher example from yesterday. Science and reserach tell me that a gay teacher is no more of a moral or physical threat to my kids than a straight teacher, yet religious schools will go out of their way not to hire them.

But an atheist is able to adapt to reality abased on science in a more natural way, religious people not so much.

I find that unjustifiable statement. In my experience, people in general have a hard time with reality, regardless of their belief system.
Or to put it another way, everyone sees the world in a way that best suits them. Reality has very little to do with it. And science certainly doesn't.
Violence, prejudice, jealousy, envy, hatred, mistrust, fear, insecurity, sadism, masochism, self-hatred, self criticism, low self-esteem etc, etc. all exist. They are facts of life. And they are utterly, utterly removed from religion.

They are the artifacts of our consciousness. Theist or atheist, you are scarcely built for the realities of existence. And so you shrink it - you blind yourself to what you do not want to know - about yourselves and others - you project your fears onto others, and try to create for yourself a representation of the world that makes sense - that you can handle!

For instance back to my gay teacher example from yesterday. Science and reserach tell me that a gay teacher is no more of a moral or physical threat to my kids than a straight teacher, yet religious schools will go out of their way not to hire them.

Scapegoating. Should have put that in my list above. A dreadful tendency of 'ours'. Terrible - but nothing religious about it.

MaxWig wrote: »

Scapegoating. Should have put that in my list above. A dreadful tendency of 'ours'. Terrible - but nothing religious about it.

The act of scapegoating dates back to when a community would place their sin onto a goat and drive it out or sacrifice it so absolve their sins!

Jesus was the ultimate Scapegoat apparently took on all out sins then was sacrificed to expiate us of them!

MaxWig wrote: »

I obey some of them. Been known to covet I have to say.

Never any consequences for me.

If I choose to say to myself, I am a bad person if I covet. A terrible person. I cannot blame religion for that. Only the circumstance I was in that led me to assert that about myself.

Some people hate themselves because they're fat. Some for smoking. Some for being weak.

There are never any consequences while you are alive because there is no god to enact them upon you, yet believe in religion you will need to wait for death until you find out what those consequences are!

Are you comfortable that upon death a god can convict you of thought crime/coveting something?

MaxWig wrote: »

I disagree. Its a book.



Books have no authority to give. They are paper and ink. A book alone determines no action.



I don't believe so

Is the bible the word of god or not? How can you be religious and not think the bible is just a "book"? People swear on this book in courts and people have died for it?

jaffusmax wrote: »

Is the bible the word of god or not? How can you be religious and not think the bible is just a "book"? People swear on this book in courts and people have died for it?

I'm not religious.

jaffusmax wrote: »

Praise be to god!

haha

MaxWig wrote: »

But..... I don't blame religion for war, pestilence, hatred and injustice

That like saying I don't blame National Socialism (Nazi) for war, genocide, hatred and injustice!

Some systems are inherently flawed and religion is no exception!

MaxWig wrote: »

We are inherently flawed.

The systems in which religions operate are inherently flawed.

If we weren't, who knows - it might be paradise

That is just saying <snip> happens , so what ?

jaffusmax wrote:

The act of scapegoating dates back to when a community would place their sin onto a goat and drive it out or sacrifice it so absolve their sins!

Exactly. And is hasn't changed much has it. What a lovely idea that we can place our 'sins' in Religion and then drive it out. Would we then feel less guilty for our horrid ways?
I'd hazard a guess and say No

MaxWig wrote: »

No. Its like saying "we happened.
Stop blaming religion and look closer to home"

Personally I reckon we as a species should shake off what we don't need anymore just like religion and see where evolution takes us!

Religion is no longer beneficial to the success of our species as much as our appendix is!

indioblack wrote:

I gave a bad response. Religions and people claim authority from the bible. I agree, it's a book - but this thread demonstrates that it's not just any book.

People claim authority. They say they know the correct way to live. Some look to this book or that book. Some to science, some to politics.

None of them are telling the truth. So we each follow the one that provides us the surest route to our own heroism. The one that allows us to look favourably upon ourselves.