Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

pauldla wrote: »

I don't know. Biblical scholars date the books of the New Testament as being written during the second half of the first century and into the second century, if I'm not mistaken. Your guess is as good as mine, I suppose, as to why they omitted it; especially if it was an event prophesied directly by Jesus. Perhaps it was a later addition by an over-zealous scribe?

The other interesting thing is that no where in the New Testament, is there any mention of the occurrence great Roman-Judean war, from 66-70 A.D. (resulting in the complete levelling of Jerusalem, the death of up to 1.1 million Jews and the enslavement of 90,000 survivors. [according to Josephus] ) Paul's letter were written between 50-60 A.D, but I would have expected to have seen at least some mention of it elsewhere.

MaxWig wrote: »

I think it would make more sense to say we have no purpose, and therefore we have (in the broad sense) faith

We have faith with regards to lots of things. We have faith in things because we like to think the future will hold an outcome favourable to us.

MaxWig wrote: »

People have faith that things will be ok, on a day to day basis. They have faith that they and their family will not be struck down by a dreadful disease, or die in a horrific accident. They'll soon find out.

Nate Silver has a great piece in his book "Signal & Noise" about claims made by pundits on news shows. Since there are no consequences to their claims about who will win the next election for example, they will often greatly over state how much confidence they have.

He thinks you should always ask someone how much money they are prepared to put on any prediction. You will find that confidence in any particular prediction plummets once stakes are placed on it.

There is nothing like a consequence for being wrong to make someone seriously evaluate why they believe something.

And I don't mean just a bad outcome. You might hope that the bank won't foreclose on your house. But it is a different matter to bet 100,000 euro that the bank won't foreclose on your house. You could lose your house (out of your control) but also lose the 100,000 you put up with confidence that the bank won't foreclose.

I wonder how much Tommy would be prepared to bet that God exists. It is a bit of a pointless question since we have no way of verifying this.

It is funny though that religious followers who actually do put up stakes for their faith (such as selling everything because the apocalypse is just around the corner) are often laughed at or dismissed by other more ‘reasonable’ believers as being fool hardy. I think the majority of believers understand that faith is only valuable as wish fulfilment, you aren’t supposed to actually be that confidence in your own faith to actually risk anything.

To use an analogy, it is considered ok to put 2 euro on the lottery and dream that you might win. But if you are so confidence that you might win that you burn your house and possessions people will think you are nuts.

MaxWig wrote: »

But that you and everyone you know will die, that the doctors and scientists will die, the priests and preachers etc. There's nothing safe about it.

You are going to die anyway. You lose nothing extra by having faith in the Bible or Quran. It is a risk free indulgence.

If on the other hand your faith was supposed to tell you if your plane would or wouldn’t fly the vast majority of people would reject faith and settle for “I don’t know”. And the few that would continue would be considered nut cases, even by fellow believers (such as the Christians who refuse medical treatment for their children based on faith)

MaxWig wrote: »

Indulge? Or maintain?

Indulge and maintain. We maintain our egos by indulging in the belief that we are special and everything will work out for us.

MaxWig wrote: »

The fact that we can assess traditional notions of faith and identify empirical weaknesses in their claims should not blind you to the fact that you engage in the same wishful thinking as do the faithful.

I probably do. Everyone likes to think that things will work out for them, specifically. It beats worrying all the time.

It doesn’t change the future though, and you have to be very careful indulging to much. We should always remind ourselves what is actually happening here. I might think about playing the lottery for fun every once and a while, but I always remind myself of the actual odds of winning and ask myself would I rather just have the 2 euro

MaxWig wrote: »

I'm lost in trying to follow how you imagine science has provided anything like a solution to the problem (not problems) of life and death. At best it has improved palliative care!

If you are asking has science made us immoral, the answer is no. But then neither has faith. Hoping you will live forever is not the same as making you live forever.

Science has though vastly improved the quality of life on Earth. Faith hasn’t. The most faith manages is to make people not care about the crappy life they have now because they think they are going to live forever.

So Science 1 Faith 0

A Letter from God to Man

Hey There, how, how's it going?
Long time no see

I know I haven't been around much lately
But… it didn't seem like you wanted me to be
The last time I sent down a message
You nailed it to the cross
So I figured I'd just leave you to it
Let you be your own boss

But I've been keeping an eye on you, I have
And it's amazing how you've grown
With your technological advances
And the problems you've overthrown
And all the beautiful art you've created
With such grace and such finesse
But I admit there are a few things I'm afraid
Have impressed me less

So I'm writing to apologize
For all the horrors committed in my name
Although it was never what I intended
I feel I should take my share of the blame
All the good I tried to do was corrupted
When organized religion got into full swing
What I thought were quite clear messages
Were taken to unusual extremes
My teachings taken out of context
To meet the agendas of others
Interpretations taken to many different ways
And hidden meanings discovered

Religion became a tool
For the weak to control the strong
With all these new morals and ethics
Survival of the fittest was gone
No longer could the biggest man
Simply take whatever he needed
Cause damnation was the price
If certain rules were not heeded

Some of the deeds committed in my name
Made me wonder were I went wrong
Back at the start when I created this
The foundation seemed so strong
See all the elements were already here
Long before I began
I just kind of put it all together
I didn't really think out a long-term plan

I made the sun an appropriate distance
And laid the stars across the sky
So you could navigate the globe
Or simply watch the sun rise
I covered the earth with plants and fruits
Some for sustenance and some for beauty
I made the sun shine and the clouds rain
So their maintenance wasn't your duty

I tried to give each creature its own attributes
Without making them enveloped
I gave you all you all your own space to grow
And in your own way space to develop
I didn't know such development
Would cause rifts and jealousy
Cause you to war against each other
And leave marks on this planet indelibly

You see, I wasn't really the creator
I was more the curator of nature
And I want to set things straight with homosexuals right now:
I don't hate ya
I was a simple being
That happened to be the first to yield such powers
I just laid the ground
It was you that built the towers

It was you that invented bombs
And the fear that comes with them
And it was you that invented money
And the corrupt economic systems
You invented terms like "just war"
And terms like "friendly fire"
And it was you that didn't know when to stop digging deeper
When to stop building higher

It was you that exhausted the resources
I carefully laid out on this earth
And it was you that even saw these problems coming
But accredited them little worth
It was you that used my teachings
For your own personal gain
And it was You that committed such tragedies
Even if they were in my name

So I apologize for any mistakes I made
And when my words misconstrued
But this apology's to Mother Nature
Cause I created you

MaxWig wrote: »

And that our present means something

"means something" tends to translate to "an external authority told me I was being good"

If I said my life means something to me most believers would find that unsatisfactory.

Something else in authority has to tell you that your life means something. But then why do we care if this authority likes what we are doing?

MaxWig wrote: »

Makes sense. But it only serves to illustrate what a powerful force faith is.
If you ask anyone to explain and elaborate on the reasons they do what they do, you don't have to go very far to realise the whole thing is built on shaky foundations.
But the point is that they know too. We all do.
And like the stakes you mention, I guess focusing the mind on it too keenly is a fool's errand.
Blind Faith, bias, repression, delusion - call it whatever you like - it is the default position for everyone! Not just the faithful.

Yes but the faithful consider it a virtue

MaxWig wrote: »

You say that as though the faith is an easy thing to come across. Surely genuine faith is either hard won, or a 'gift' for want of a better word.

What do you mean "genuine faith"? Do you mean someone who really truly believes something they cannot support, to the point they will risk a lot on that?

That is rare. Though I could not call that a 'gift'.

MaxWig wrote: »

Wise approach. So I wonder is it possible to use a similar approach with broader questions.

Yes. The problem is that most people ask "broader questions" in order to arrive at a psychologically satisfying answer. What is a satisfying answer will depend on the psychological need of the person asking the question.

MaxWig wrote: »

No I'm not asking that. I just wasn't sure how an appreciation of technology and science is any different for an appreciation of theology or myth.

Science does useful things and stops us from dying. Theology and myth doesn't.

MaxWig wrote: »

I find that statement pretty dodgy. You describe science as though it is being wielded neutrally.

The fact that man has used science to wage war on his fellow man surely drops a spanner in the works. The fact that you have benefited from science, or believe you have, should not skew your perception of it.

Science is in the hands of the same people who brought you the Reformation, the Spanish Inquisition, Hiroshima and the KKK.

They eradicated Small Pox and created Agent Orange.

Which is still a massive net gain.

For every 1 new inventive way to harm someone science gives us it also gives us a million saved lives.

Faith does neither. I'll take science any day. I would be dead many times over if it wasn't for science. Faith has never discovered anything that has improved anyone's chances of living another day.

byrneg28 wrote: »

A Letter from God to Man

Hey There, how, how's it going?
Long time no see

I know I haven't been around much lately
But… it didn't seem like you wanted me to be
The last time I sent down a message
You nailed it to the cross
So I figured I'd just leave you to it
Let you be your own boss

But I've been keeping an eye on you, I have
And it's amazing how you've grown
With your technological advances
And the problems you've overthrown
And all the beautiful art you've created
With such grace and such finesse
But I admit there are a few things I'm afraid
Have impressed me less

So I'm writing to apologize
For all the horrors committed in my name
Although it was never what I intended
I feel I should take my share of the blame
All the good I tried to do was corrupted
When organized religion got into full swing
What I thought were quite clear messages
Were taken to unusual extremes
My teachings taken out of context
To meet the agendas of others
Interpretations taken to many different ways
And hidden meanings discovered

Religion became a tool
For the weak to control the strong
With all these new morals and ethics
Survival of the fittest was gone
No longer could the biggest man
Simply take whatever he needed
Cause damnation was the price
If certain rules were not heeded

Some of the deeds committed in my name
Made me wonder were I went wrong
Back at the start when I created this
The foundation seemed so strong
See all the elements were already here
Long before I began
I just kind of put it all together
I didn't really think out a long-term plan

I made the sun an appropriate distance
And laid the stars across the sky
So you could navigate the globe
Or simply watch the sun rise
I covered the earth with plants and fruits
Some for sustenance and some for beauty
I made the sun shine and the clouds rain
So their maintenance wasn't your duty

I tried to give each creature its own attributes
Without making them enveloped
I gave you all you all your own space to grow
And in your own way space to develop
I didn't know such development
Would cause rifts and jealousy
Cause you to war against each other
And leave marks on this planet indelibly

You see, I wasn't really the creator
I was more the curator of nature
And I want to set things straight with homosexuals right now:
I don't hate ya
I was a simple being
That happened to be the first to yield such powers
I just laid the ground
It was you that built the towers

It was you that invented bombs
And the fear that comes with them
And it was you that invented money
And the corrupt economic systems
You invented terms like "just war"
And terms like "friendly fire"
And it was you that didn't know when to stop digging deeper
When to stop building higher

It was you that exhausted the resources
I carefully laid out on this earth
And it was you that even saw these problems coming
But accredited them little worth
It was you that used my teachings
For your own personal gain
And it was You that committed such tragedies
Even if they were in my name

So I apologize for any mistakes I made
And when my words misconstrued
But this apology's to Mother Nature
Cause I created you

It would be more useful if God had actually written this - we might have a firmer idea of who he is supposed to be.
It usually comes down to "The world I made is screwed but it's nothing to do with me."
If existence as we experience it now is the result of the "Fall" then we are somehow responsible for the mechanics of the whole universe - in some way we have created our present existence by our fall from grace.
In the symbolic story of the garden of Eden Adam is tempted by Eve who is seduced into acting by the serpent. You have the apple and the Tree of Knowledge.
OK so far. But you can't have Eve offering the apple until the apple exists.
You can't have the transgression concerning the Tree of Knowledge until the tree exists.
As has been pointed out this thread is about the existence of God.
As has also been pointed out, it may be more pertinent to ask "What kind of God?" - if any.

TheLurker wrote: »

As soon as faith becomes something that has consequences we abandon it. Not just me Tommy, all of us. We all abandon faith as soon as it matters.



It is precisely because none of these religious claims matter to you, it will have no effect on your life what so ever, that allows you to indulge in what ever supernatural faith system you like, which ever one brings you the most comfort without any possibility of harm.




Anyway, weren't we talking about the most likely explanation for Jesus was that he wasn't a real miracle worker?

Apologies if editing your post offends you, I needed to cut it to the point I'll adress.

What are you smoking? We abandon faith as soon as it matters? Go read a history book! People have placed themselves in mortal danger for faith, they have paid the ultimate price for their faith and you without a shred of evidence dismiss them!
Grow up!

And yes that's what we were talking about, the whole thread is about evidence for the existence of god. I think at this stage both sides admit their is no empirical evidence. Which only leaves us believers to explain why even without evidence we still believe.
The puzzling part is why non believers are so determined to seek evidence, as if evidence would convince them.

katydid wrote: »

I'd hardly call 1st century Palestine "prehistoric". It was actually a very interesting time, with the influence of Rome at its height, and a ready made "communications system" (common tongue, common currency, trade routes etc.) in the Eastern Mediterranean.

Actually, Christianity was very pro-woman. Jesus himself treated women with respect and equality, and the new church considered all humans equal under God. Women often played leading roles in the early church.

I understand what you mean, but I meant prehistoric in terms of modern science for instance and our current understanding of that, not perceiving technological advances as some kind of magic or wizadry or dare I say, miracle. When we think of people that lived in that age, in as many ways as we were alike, we were also quite far apart because we live(d) in very different worlds, ruled by very different ideals. "Interesting times" as you describe them, were few and far between, globally speaking, different cultures separated from others, founded their own philosophies and religions.. as we can still see quite clearly today. I was simply trying to point this out.

I don't know if you've read the bible or its counterparts, but generally speaking, it treats women as a subservient species. It seems like everyone can speak for Jesus these days, sure everyone can quote Gandhi too, few know how horribly he treated his own family and that wasn't even a lifetime ago.

Saints of old are still worshiped as idols in Christianity, steeped in myths of apparitions, stigmatas and penance. Is there a person alive today, who has been sainted on behalf of the selfless work that they've done? Maybe there are, but I haven't heard about them, and I sure didn't hear about them crying blood or speaking to God.. if they did, they'd more than likely be in a mental institution.

For me faith and religion are a bit like a placebo.. things work when you believe in them and it's easy to see why people are drawn to such things. I mean like, for instance, you can give sugar pills or real medicine to let us say, people with depression, and amazingly, the sugar pills behave much the same way in those people who "thought" they were getting the real thing.
There is something important to acknowledge in that I think. I believe, personally, that we are capable of creating and sculpting the universe however we can imagine as long as we believe and persevere, it's our belief that forges our future.. and it really, really bothers me that the world is still hinged on fairytales and politics.

We grow up and learn by what's around us, our immediate family and external environment.. but our beliefs are based on the stories handed down through the centuries, all of our ancestors trying to make sense of their struggles, their reason for being. That was their struggle, not ours, our struggle is a different one and I think living in the past and waiting for Jesus to save you from your own moral decisions is taking the easy way out to be honest.

Over the years I've been more inclined towards eastern philosophies, mainly Buddhism and it's related counterparts. In Buddhism I've found, you have to work, to meditate and become introspective, to look so deeply inside yourself to see that very thing that created you. It's not something that's given to you, it's something that you have to fight every cell in your body and your consciousness to understand. You don't need to go to church or write books about Messiahs, you don't need to debate about Mark or John or what people think Jesus meant or did not mean, all of that is just utter semantics. Life is just as unreal as it is tangible, in our hearts, in our emotions, in our actions and in our thoughts.

I have no conclusive answers, all i can say is that i try my best to love life, and to share that with those around me, whether it's my sorrow or my joy. What I can see however, is a world that is totally out of control and on a path of self destruction. I worry about THAT, and the fact that people can't see it, or don't seem to even care, while preaching.. the word of the lord.

"means something" tends to translate to "an external authority told me I was being good"

If I said my life means something to me most believers would find that unsatisfactory.

Including yourself. That's our core problem. We search for and create meaning within our lives, but are painfully aware that it's a charade. Can't go on without meaning - but know when we die, any meaning we create dies with us.

Something else in authority has to tell you that your life means something. But then why do we care if this authority likes what we are doing?

You tell yourself your life means something.

Yes but the faithful consider it a virtue

No more or less than you or I.

What do you mean "genuine faith"? Do you mean someone who really truly believes something they cannot support, to the point they will risk a lot on that?

Yes, I suppose I do.

That is rare. Though I could not call that a 'gift'.

Not that rare. Our world is full of people walking through war zones with bullets flying past their heads. Some for God, some for country. Some just because they want to save a couple of babies and not let the whole thing go to complete unbridled sh!t. All with some kind of faith that what they are doing means something - is worthwhile.

Science does useful things and stops us from dying. Theology and myth doesn't.

Hasn't stopped anyone dying yet. Again, I'm not sure where the benevolence you associate with science stems from. It's not all about Carl Sagan and Richard Dawkins day dreaming allowed. It's also reconstituted chicken and Chinese factories belting out iWatches

Which is still a massive net gain.

For every 1 new inventive way to harm someone science gives us it also gives us a million saved lives.

A million prolonged lives.
While man goes about trying to exterminate the f*** out of everyone who disagrees with him. It's a precarious position. Technology you say provides net gains - until when? What about when some goon presses the button? Still a net gain? Or would that be Science 0 - Religion 1. I mean at least faith is an empty barrel, right?

Faith does neither. I'll take science any day. I would be dead many times over if it wasn't for science. Faith has never discovered anything that has improved anyone's chances of living another day.

I take your point but I'll disagree. You have to acknowledge that faith has helped very many people face another day in unbearable circumstances. I understand that's not the exact point you were making, but I feel it's worth mentioning

MaxWig wrote: »

Soldiers do it. From all sides of the equation. Some believe God is on their side. Some believe right is on their side.

But they all believe that they will be ok. Them specifically, because they have faith that the guy next to them will get it in the neck - not them!

That's faith.

I had faith in a fart once, but that was until I crapped myself! Apologies for the crudeness :rolleyes:

MaxWig wrote: »

It's the vagueness that got me

Putting faith in anything as a chance of backfiring!

Can I please as what his opinion of Peregrinus regarding the excerpt from the Old Testament I posted regarding God and Genocide. I presented it to you before but you never responded!


15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

pauldla wrote: »

You put your question to him less than an hour ago. I presume the bauld P is engaged in some other fruitful endeavor, such as working.

For my own part, I can't really see the relevance of your question to the exchange between myself, P and Cen Taurus though; or am I being presumptive?

I also presented him, with the same quote a week ago with no response, the relevance is in Gods interaction with men in matters of war through the bible!