Laws Question? Ask here!

Quin_Dub · 25-03-2015 10:26AM

desertcircus wrote: »

Landing a player on his head from a high ball is a card regardless of intent. Landing a player on his head from a tackle is a card regardless of intent. Landing a player on his head from a late tackle is...apparently completely okay. The onus is on the tackler to make sure the opponent doesn't go beyond the horizontal, and I don't see what's different about Lawes' case.

My issue with Lawes is that his reputation as a "big hitter" is entirely based on these marginal late hits , Samu Manoa, another Northampton player is the same.

They both seem to target players just the the ball leaves them either kicked or passed.

I don't think I've ever seen Lawes make a big hit on someone fully in posession running at him.

He always catches them with these "almost" late hits , which are frankly cheap-shots in my view.

Where are the video clips of Lawes smashing a back-row forward on the charge or of a massive clear-out at a breakdown???

sydthebeat · 25-03-2015 10:45AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Always? It's why you're not allowed tackle players without the ball for instance. You tackle a player in possession of the ball with a view to turning over possession.

The player does not have possession of the ball when Lawes 'hits' him. He's got no intention of competing for a ball. A cynic might easily argue that given the previous instances of this 'hit', Lawes is actively looking to time his connection to occur after the ball has been released.

Agreed about the legality issues, that's what I'd said a few times already. It's not illegal, but it's not on imo.

The goal of the tackle is to bring the ball carrier to ground.
The ensuing ruck is the competition for the ball.

I would disagree that there is an element of 'competition' around the tackle... the ball is not available for opposing players to compete.
A ruck is a competition, a line out, a scrum, a maul, a kick, a jackle... but a tackle isnt.

25-03-2015 10:48AM

sydthebeat wrote: »

The goal of the tackle is to bring the ball carrier to ground.
The ensuing ruck is the competition for the ball.

I would disagree that there is an element of 'competition' around the tackle... the ball is not available for opposing players to compete.
A ruck is a competition, a line out, a scrum, a maul, a kick, a jackle... but a tackle isnt.

There's a very important and common element to all of the above though! And that is the presence of the ball.

Once the ball isn't involved, all of the above become illegal.

sydthebeat · 25-03-2015 11:04AM

Deleted User wrote: »

There's a very important and common element to all of the above though! And that is the presence of the ball.

Once the ball isn't involved, all of the above become illegal.

so your basically arguing the interpretation of a late tackle.

25-03-2015 11:10AM

sydthebeat wrote: »

so your basically arguing the interpretation of a late tackle.

Yes. I said that a cynic might note that this particular 'challenge' has featured several times in Lawes' highlight reel, and that one might consider that he has 'perfected' it to be late (in terms of the ball no longer being in the possession of the carrier) but not late by the rule book by committing himself during possession.

It's not a late tackle by virtue of the 'committing himself', but a cynic might suggest that Lawes is committing himself to a challenge early in order to stay within the rules of the game, with the goal of 'hitting' a player who's just released the ball.

I don't believe that Lawes has any intention of trying to bring the ball carrier to ground in this scenario.

How to legislate for it though? I don't really know tbh

edit to add the clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3QDOWk1qIo

shuffol · 25-03-2015 11:32AM

total former wrote: »

I don't agree it was 100% legal but it's already been discussed.

The second part is my major objection, the onus is on the tackled player not to get hit? That's the complete opposite of the interpretation of every other rule. Why?

Because Lawes isn't doing anything outside of the law as far as I can see, he's a hugely destructive tackler and that's why this is an issue. If your playing against a guy who's lightning fast you have to be aware of it and not give him space, likewise don't run off with no support if you see a player who specialises at poaching in front of you, if your facing a team with a destructive tackler like Lawes you have to watch out for him.

Yeah_Right · 25-03-2015 11:34AM

I think its a great tackle. As another poster said, what if Plisson threw a dummy and Lawes pulled out of the tackle? Then Lawes misses the tackle and France makes a break. He was well within his rights to complete the tackle.

Quin_Dub · 25-03-2015 11:42AM

shuffol wrote: »

Because Lawes isn't doing anything outside of the law as far as I can see, he's a hugely destructive tackler and that's why this is an issue. If your playing against a guy who's lightning fast you have to be aware of it and not give him space, likewise don't run off with no support if you see a player who specialises at poaching in front of you, if your facing a team with a destructive tackler like Lawes you have to watch out for him.

Only when he's blind-siding inside backs that are 3 or 4 stone lighter than him...

He specifically targets these opportunities.

As I said - Where are the video clips of him trying that flying torpedo tackle on someone like SOB or Vunipola or the like at Club level...?

They may not be exactly illegal , but they are definitely cheap shots..

Podge_irl · 25-03-2015 11:48AM

You could make a pretty easy argument that Plisson leaves the ground and then is forced to land on his head so its a dangerous tackle.

total former · 25-03-2015 11:56AM

The more I look at that, the more convinced I am the ref got it wrong. Penalty and card IMO.

fitz · 25-03-2015 12:08PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes. I said that a cynic might note that this particular 'challenge' has featured several times in Lawes' highlight reel, and that one might consider that he has 'perfected' it to be late (in terms of the ball no longer being in the possession of the carrier) but not late by the rule book by committing himself during possession.

It's not a late tackle by virtue of the 'committing himself', but a cynic might suggest that Lawes is committing himself to a challenge early in order to stay within the rules of the game, with the goal of 'hitting' a player who's just released the ball.

I don't believe that Lawes has any intention of trying to bring the ball carrier to ground in this scenario.

How to legislate for it though? I don't really know tbh

edit to add the clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3QDOWk1qIo

You call it what it is, a dangerous tackle.
If Nigel had penalised that as a dangerous tackle, would anyone have complained?

molloyjh · 25-03-2015 12:42PM

Having looked at it again it's actually a tip tackle. Legs go above the hips and the player is driven head first into the ground. At the time I thought it was a good, strong hit. But it actually isn't. Look at the screen grab below and you can see Plisson hits the ground head first with his legs in the air. 100% a dangerous tip tackle.

BoardsMember · 25-03-2015 12:49PM

molloyjh wrote: »

Having looked at it again it's actually a tip tackle. Legs go above the hips and the player is driven head first into the ground. At the time I thought it was a good, strong hit. But it actually isn't. Look at the screen grab below and you can see Plisson hits the ground head first with his legs in the air. 100% a dangerous tip tackle.

Finally!!

sydthebeat · 25-03-2015 12:56PM

well just to play devils advocate here... but surely for it to be a tip tackle, there has to be a 'tipping' by the tackler... which there wasnt in this case? in my view there has to be a lifting by the tackler to be a tip tackle.

ok, the tackled player ended up in a position similar to that which is caused by a tip tackle, but thats cause by the force of the hit, not by a lifting

fitz · 25-03-2015 12:59PM

May not be a tip tackle by that definition syd, but it's still dangerous.

sydthebeat · 25-03-2015 01:01PM

fitz wrote: »

May not be a tip tackle by that definition syd, but it's still dangerous.

yes completely agreed.

I totally agree its a 'dangerous' tackle, but its not a 'tip tackle' as we commonly perceive it.

rrpc · 25-03-2015 01:09PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

well just to play devils advocate here... but surely for it to be a tip tackle, there has to be a 'tipping' by the tackler... which there wasnt in this case? in my view there has to be a lifting by the tackler to be a tip tackle.

ok, the tackled player ended up in a position similar to that which is caused by a tip tackle, but thats cause by the force of the hit, not by a lifting

For me it's exactly the tackle you get when you don't tip tackle. A lot of tip tackles occur when the tackler basically stops driving into the player and allows the momentum shift to tip the tackled player before [dropping/driving/releasing/placing] them on the ground.

Driving through the player like Lawes does, can often take the player's feet off the ground, but the momentum carries through and they generally come down more safely than a tip tackle.

It wasn't late though; too little time between the pass and the tackle. As ibf said, it could well have been a dummy and trying to stop the tackle could do as much harm.

Pudsy33 · 25-03-2015 01:12PM

I've changed my mind on it too. Plisson gets flipped and lands on his head. Dangerous and warranted a penalty imo.

padser · 25-03-2015 01:31PM

Pudsy33 wrote: »

I've changed my mind on it too. Plisson gets flipped and lands on his head. Dangerous and warranted a penalty imo.

I think it's open and shut really.

Plisson is taken past the horizontal and lands with the upper part of his body hitting the ground first. Lawes has a responsibility as he takes Plisson off his feet (albeit by force of tackle but nonetheless) to ensure he gets back to ground safely. He doesn't do that. (He can't do so because he launched himself, but that's no defence)

It's dangerous play and it's a yellow card.

Had Plisson not landed on his head then I think Owens is technically correct, but we should find a way to prevent this type of tackle constantly reoccurring

molloyjh · 25-03-2015 02:37PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

well just to play devils advocate here... but surely for it to be a tip tackle, there has to be a 'tipping' by the tackler... which there wasnt in this case? in my view there has to be a lifting by the tackler to be a tip tackle.

ok, the tackled player ended up in a position similar to that which is caused by a tip tackle, but thats cause by the force of the hit, not by a lifting

We're in danger of getting lost in semantics here so I'll just state this:

The whole point of the laws regarding tip/spear tackles is to prevent situations where players land or are driven head first into the ground due to the severe consequences such an impact could have. In this example Plisson was driven head first into the ground and so IMO it was this kind of result that the laws were looking to prevent. Whether it was because Plisson was actively picked up or because the force of the tackle was such that it led to this is fairly irrelevant. Either the point was to protect players welfare or it wasn't. We could get into a debate over what qualifies as a lift and what doesn't, but I don't think that changes anything. We're agreed it was a dangerous tackle. What we call it beyond that doesn't really matter.

cython · 25-03-2015 02:45PM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

My issue with Lawes is that his reputation as a "big hitter" is entirely based on these marginal late hits , Samu Manoa, another Northampton player is the same.

They both seem to target players just the the ball leaves them either kicked or passed.

I don't think I've ever seen Lawes make a big hit on someone fully in posession running at him.

He always catches them with these "almost" late hits , which are frankly cheap-shots in my view.

Where are the video clips of Lawes smashing a back-row forward on the charge or of a massive clear-out at a breakdown???

Cos this is what happens when he tries

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqvOBZgBw_c

.ak · 25-03-2015 02:49PM

molloyjh wrote: »

Having looked at it again it's actually a tip tackle. Legs go above the hips and the player is driven head first into the ground. At the time I thought it was a good, strong hit. But it actually isn't. Look at the screen grab below and you can see Plisson hits the ground head first with his legs in the air. 100% a dangerous tip tackle.

No, for me that's a level of pedant-ism I don't want seen in the game. Most tackles end up like that. What we want to be looking out for is TIP tackles where players are being lifted past the horizontal and driven or dropped into the ground.

Zzippy · 25-03-2015 02:56PM

I don't think it should be treated like a tip tackle, but IMO it is a late cheap shot and should have been a penalty

molloyjh · 25-03-2015 03:07PM

.ak wrote: »

No, for me that's a level of pedant-ism I don't want seen in the game. Most tackles end up like that. What we want to be looking out for is TIP tackles where players are being lifted past the horizontal and driven or dropped into the ground.

Most tackles most certainly do not end up like that. Very few tackles have the kind of force required to flip a guy 120 or so degrees and then proceed to drive him head first into the ground. If they did you'd have nobody left playing the game. Players generally end up on their arses or on their backs.

In the below clip there are a lot of big hit,s a lot of illegal hits, a bit of lifting in the tackle etc. How many of them land head first at the kind of angle Plisson did on Saturday?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1A06stpydY

BoardsMember · 25-03-2015 03:11PM

.ak wrote: »

No, for me that's a level of pedant-ism I don't want seen in the game. Most tackles end up like that. What we want to be looking out for is TIP tackles where players are being lifted past the horizontal and driven or dropped into the ground.

This just is not the case. If most tackles ended up with the tackled player having his head driven into the ground with their legs in the air we'd be seeing a lot more spinal injuries in rugby.

It's not pedantism. The reason tip tackles are outlawed is because they result in the player arriving at force head first into the ground. This was the effect of the Lawes tackle.

sydthebeat · 25-03-2015 03:16PM

so is Lawes expected to change his tackling style based on the size of the player hes tackling ? .... as its simple physics that causes the resultant.

Does Plissons in-actions (not readying himself for the hit) warrant any mentioning as being partially responsible as well?

BoardsMember · 25-03-2015 03:20PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

so is Lawes expected to change his tackling style based on the size of the player hes tackling ? .... as its simple physics that causes the resultant.

Does Plissons in-actions (not readying himself for the hit) warrant any mentioning as being partially responsible as well?

Yes. Just like in the tip tackle the tackler is responsible for the player arriving safely back down, or the catcher in the air not being interfered with beyond a fair contest for the ball.

I really cant grasp how Plisson could have done anything about it, he never saw it coming.

Yeah_Right · 25-03-2015 03:23PM

molloyjh wrote: »

Most tackles most certainly do not end up like that. Very few tackles have the kind of force required to flip a guy 120 or so degrees and then proceed to drive him head first into the ground. If they did you'd have nobody left playing the game. Players generally end up on their arses or on their backs.

In the below clip there are a lot of big hit,s a lot of illegal hits, a bit of lifting in the tackle etc. How many of them land head first at the kind of angle Plisson did on Saturday?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1A06stpydY

Just watched that clip. Yes some very illegal tackles but also a lot of legal ones there that were very similar to Lawes' tackle. One that jumped out at me was the Bismark tackle on Dan Carter. Does anyone think that was illegal? Did it deserve a yellow?

sydthebeat · 25-03-2015 03:31PM

BoardsMember wrote: »

1. Yes. Just like in the tip tackle the tackler is responsible for the player arriving safely back down, or the catcher in the air not being interfered with beyond a fair contest for the ball.

2. I really cant grasp how Plisson could have done anything about it, he never saw it coming.

1. as lawes did not lift plisson, but rather the force at which he hit him took him off his feet, is it reasonable to expect a tackler, who themselves are horizontal, to somehow guide the tackled player to ground safely?

2. Rubbish. Lawes was directly ahead of plisson taking the ball. Plisson was at least 10 meters away when the pass was thrown. It was impossible for Plisson NOT to see Lawes. He simply didnt expect him to get caught so quickly. Plisson didnt take sufficient actions to lessen the hit... ie better foot movement or readying for the hit.

its a harsh lesson for the young out half

Dave_The_Sheep · 25-03-2015 03:38PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

1. as lawes did not lift plisson, but rather the force at which he hit him took him off his feet, is it reasonable to expect a tackler, who themselves are horizontal, to somehow guide the tackled player to ground safely?

Yes.

Both in the case of a drive (in this case) and a lift (in the case of the traditional tip tackle); if they result in the tackled player coming off their feet, the tackler should be responsible for their landing position.

I initially thought it was fine (it certainly wasn't late, or high) - and I can see both sides here in that size difference and momentum/positioning were the main culprits - but player welfare does sometimes have to take precedence. If you tackle a player and they're unable to control it themselves being off their feet, you should be responsible for what happens to him/her. Just my thoughts - though as someone who hasn't played since I was about 12.

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