Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

Delirium · 13-03-2015 01:39PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Can you explain that for me, quoting the posts that lead up to it ?

no, as it would be off-topic for this thread.

If you have any questions about my post, feel free to drop me a PM.

orubiru · 13-03-2015 01:57PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Sure is, if you are able to post anything civil, or present a single argument for atheism, or against theism, without having to resort to logical fallacies and false premises and ad hominem each and every time.

Looking forward to the day you present arguments, answer questions, and reply to posts, by not attacking posters instead of the post, or delivering useless drive-by one liners.

Really? Please let's not start this again.

How can someone possibly make an argument FOR Atheism?

Are you saying that it is impossible for someone to lack belief in God?

The "argument for Atheism" would be if you lack belief in God then you are, by definition, an Atheist.

The only argument against Atheism would be that everyone has belief in God and so nobody can possibly be an Atheist. That's it.

What do you imagine the "argument for Atheism" might be?

TheLurker · 13-03-2015 02:19PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

You didn't give any bits, you just gave a one liner.

This is not a one liner

TheLurker wrote: »

Sure. Zeus. Or practically any of the Greek Gods. Though technically they didn't create the universe, though given they could create a new universe that makes it hard to tell if they created this universe.

As for the trinity, all the trinity means from a practical sense is that God can split himself off into different parts, some of them human. Zeus did that all the time, normally to have sex with human women.

So again I'm unaware of any ability the Christian God is supposed to have that various other deities are not supposed to have. If you can name one I'm all ears.

Cen taurus wrote: »

If you didn't put the work in to examining your own claim for accuracy and errors before you threw it out there, I can't reassure you of anything.

What?

You asked who could also fit the Christian description of God? I said Zeus, and (in the post above) explain how.

I know this to be case because I'm pretty familiar with Greek mythology. Zeus came to mind straight away.

You apparently aren't as familiar and are asking for more detail that this is actually the case. Fair enough. But your query was particularly vague and as such I could easily explain a whole range of Greek history unnecessarily, wasting both our time.

So I'm asking you what specifically do you not accept or not understand?

TheLurker · 13-03-2015 02:21PM

orubiru wrote: »

Really? Please let's not start this again.

Actually if he wants to respond to my argument for atheism, linking to the post where he apparently tore it apart, I would be grateful. :pac:

Cen taurus · 13-03-2015 02:48PM

TheLurker wrote: »

This is not a one liner

What?

You asked who could also fit the Christian description of God? I said Zeus, and (in the post above) explain how.

I know this to be case because I'm pretty familiar with Greek mythology. Zeus came to mind straight away.

You apparently aren't as familiar and are asking for more detail that this is actually the case. Fair enough. But your query was particularly vague and as such I could easily explain a whole range of Greek history unnecessarily, wasting both our time.

So I'm asking you what specifically do you not accept or not understand?

Here's what I asked (again)

Cen taurus wrote: »

Thanks. I've already asked for this, and was wondering when you were going to address it.

The forum charter defines Christian belief as the contents of the apostles creed.

Your claim was that Zeus matches the definition of the Christian God, therefore, you should be able to go through the apostles creed point by point, compare it with sources from Greek mythology, and demonstrate this pretty easily if your claim is true.

In case you are not familiat with it, here is the apostles creed :

1. I believe in God the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
4. Under Pontius Pilate, He was crucified, died, and was buried.
5. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again.
6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
10. the forgiveness of sins,
11. the resurrection of the body,
12. and the life everlasting.

Can you, point by point provide the sources of greek mythology confirming that Zeus has also done the above, and belief in Zeus is one and the same.

orubiru · 13-03-2015 02:50PM

hinault wrote: »

From this link http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-the-earliest-new-testament-manuscripts.htm

There are over 25,000 texts found of the New Testament after the 2nd century to 16th century (16th century being the time when mass produced Bibles became viable)

I did read up on a lot of this stuff but I am still of the same opinion.

Jesus probably did exist historically. I think quite a lot of people hold this view.

However, I find it extremely difficult to find the uniqueness between the Jesus "back story" and the story of other figures from mythology or stories. This, for me, casts significant doubt on the "supernatural" aspects of Jesus life.

I found a list of 22 items that occur regularly in myths of all cultures. The more points a character scores the more "formulaic" they are, I suppose.

I think of it as how a standard "Hollywood Blockbuster" (like Fast and Furious, for example) is intentionally formulaic to avoid the risk of "flopping" and to bring in a decent amount of cash. See also the endless stream of Liam Neeson movies!

It's called Raglan's Hero Pattern...

1. Hero's mother is a royal virgin;
2. His father is a king, and
3. Often a near relative of his mother, but
4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grand father to kill him, but
7. he is spirited away, and
8. Reared by foster -parents in a far country.
9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom.
11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
13. And becomes king.
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
15. Prescribes laws, but
16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and
17. Is driven from the throne and city, after which
18. He meets with a mysterious death,
19. Often at the top of a hill,
20. His children, if any do not succeed him.
21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
22. He has one or more holy sepulchres.

Moses gets 20. Krishna 21. King Arthur 19. Mohammad 17. Buddha 15. Beowulf 15. Zeus 14. Achilles 10. Odysseus 8.

Now doesn't Jesus score quite highly here?*

This link suggests 20 points. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa4.htm

This is why I find it almost impossible to accept the stories about Jesus to be anything more than fictional stories. Or, at least, no less fictional than King Arthur etc.

Does that not seem a little suspicious to you?

*His mother, Mary, is (1) a royal virgin (descendant of King David), and his father is (2) Joseph, who is (3) her close relative. He is reported to be (5) the son of God, who (4) sends his Holy Spirit to Mary. At his birth King Herod (6) tries to kill him, but he and his parents (7) flee to Egypt. We are told (9) almost nothing of his childhood, but on reaching manhood he begins to enter (10) his future kingdom. He teaches successfully (14) for some time, prescribing (15) ways of behavior and belief. His enemies (16) persecute him, and he is executed (18) on top of a hill (19). He defeats the forces of evil (11) and eventually returns (10) to his heavenly kingdom. He has (20) no children to succeed him. His body is (21) not buried, but he has a sepulchre (22) in Jerusalem.

18 points

robinph · 13-03-2015 02:55PM

The only bit of that which your unlikely to find rewritten as part of other religions is the bit about Pontius Pilate, but I don't think you can claim that Pontius Pilate crucifying someone is a valid bit of evidence for god.

Cen taurus · 13-03-2015 03:01PM

TheLurker wrote: »

Actually if he wants to respond to my argument for atheism, linking to the post where he apparently tore it apart, I would be grateful. :pac:

First of all 'tear apart' is your own emotional straw man.
Nowhere did I use this terminology.

I identified the problem with it (and from memory it had at least one Non sequitur in the middle of it), and posted it at least once, and you can use the search function. I'm not going to keep re-posting it, while you pretend otherwise.

I've already replied here as well, so I'd advise you to have a look at your argument before re posting it verbatim again :

Cen taurus wrote: »

If you reformulate your argument, and have a go at removing the fallacies or false premises already identifed for you, I'll take a look at it again, and I'll even help you reformulate it so that it doesn't contain any fallacies or false premises I can identify, if I can think of a way of doing so.

It's good advice to check the premises of your argument, and check it against any of the lists of common fallacies are out there before you post it, that way you'll save yourself a lot of time and make a better argument.

Cen taurus · 13-03-2015 03:03PM

orubiru wrote: »

I did read up on a lot of this stuff but I am still of the same opinion.

Jesus probably did exist historically. I think quite a lot of people hold this view.

However, I find it extremely difficult to find the uniqueness between the Jesus "back story" and the story of other figures from mythology or stories. This, for me, casts significant doubt on the "supernatural" aspects of Jesus life.

I found a list of 22 items that occur regularly in myths of all cultures. The more points a character scores the more "formulaic" they are, I suppose.

I think of it as how a standard "Hollywood Blockbuster" (like Fast and Furious, for example) is intentionally formulaic to avoid the risk of "flopping" and to bring in a decent amount of cash. See also the endless stream of Liam Neeson movies!

It's called Raglan's Hero Pattern...

1. Hero's mother is a royal virgin;
2. His father is a king, and
3. Often a near relative of his mother, but
4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grand father to kill him, but
7. he is spirited away, and
8. Reared by foster -parents in a far country.
9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom.
11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
13. And becomes king.
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
15. Prescribes laws, but
16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and
17. Is driven from the throne and city, after which
18. He meets with a mysterious death,
19. Often at the top of a hill,
20. His children, if any do not succeed him.
21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
22. He has one or more holy sepulchres.

Moses gets 20. Krishna 21. King Arthur 19. Mohammad 17. Buddha 15. Beowulf 15. Zeus 14. Achilles 10. Odysseus 8.

Now doesn't Jesus score quite highly here?*

This is why I find it almost impossible to accept the stories about Jesus to be anything more than fictional stories. Or, at least, no less fictional than King Arthur etc.

Does that not seem a little suspicious to you?

*His mother, Mary, is (1) a royal virgin (descendant of King David), and his father is (2) Joseph, who is (3) her close relative. He is reported to be (5) the son of God, who (4) sends his Holy Spirit to Mary. At his birth King Herod (6) tries to kill him, but he and his parents (7) flee to Egypt. We are told (9) almost nothing of his childhood, but on reaching manhood he begins to enter (10) his future kingdom. He teaches successfully (14) for some time, prescribing (15) ways of behavior and belief. His enemies (16) persecute him, and he is executed (18) on top of a hill (19). He defeats the forces of evil (11) and eventually returns (10) to his heavenly kingdom. He has (20) no children to succeed him. His body is (21) not buried, but he has a sepulchre (22) in Jerusalem.

18 points

Time for this video again . . . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0-EgjUhRqA

orubiru · 13-03-2015 03:08PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Time for this video again . . . . .

Well, I am pretty glad that I didn't mention Horus at all.

Nick Park · 13-03-2015 03:09PM

orubiru wrote: »

I did read up on a lot of this stuff but I am still of the same opinion.

Jesus probably did exist historically. I think quite a lot of people hold this view.

However, I find it extremely difficult to find the uniqueness between the Jesus "back story" and the story of other figures from mythology or stories. This, for me, casts significant doubt on the "supernatural" aspects of Jesus life.

I found a list of 22 items that occur regularly in myths of all cultures. The more points a character scores the more "formulaic" they are, I suppose.

I think of it as how a standard "Hollywood Blockbuster" (like Fast and Furious, for example) is intentionally formulaic to avoid the risk of "flopping" and to bring in a decent amount of cash. See also the endless stream of Liam Neeson movies!

It's called Raglan's Hero Pattern...

1. Hero's mother is a royal virgin;
2. His father is a king, and
3. Often a near relative of his mother, but
4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grand father to kill him, but
7. he is spirited away, and
8. Reared by foster -parents in a far country.
9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom.
11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
13. And becomes king.
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
15. Prescribes laws, but
16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and
17. Is driven from the throne and city, after which
18. He meets with a mysterious death,
19. Often at the top of a hill,
20. His children, if any do not succeed him.
21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
22. He has one or more holy sepulchres.

Moses gets 20. Krishna 21. King Arthur 19. Mohammad 17. Buddha 15. Beowulf 15. Zeus 14. Achilles 10. Odysseus 8.

Now doesn't Jesus score quite highly here?*

This link suggests 20 points. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa4.htm

This is why I find it almost impossible to accept the stories about Jesus to be anything more than fictional stories. Or, at least, no less fictional than King Arthur etc.

Does that not seem a little suspicious to you?

*His mother, Mary, is (1) a royal virgin (descendant of King David), and his father is (2) Joseph, who is (3) her close relative. He is reported to be (5) the son of God, who (4) sends his Holy Spirit to Mary. At his birth King Herod (6) tries to kill him, but he and his parents (7) flee to Egypt. We are told (9) almost nothing of his childhood, but on reaching manhood he begins to enter (10) his future kingdom. He teaches successfully (14) for some time, prescribing (15) ways of behavior and belief. His enemies (16) persecute him, and he is executed (18) on top of a hill (19). He defeats the forces of evil (11) and eventually returns (10) to his heavenly kingdom. He has (20) no children to succeed him. His body is (21) not buried, but he has a sepulchre (22) in Jerusalem.

18 points

So, would you like to explain how Moses scores 20?

The 18 points for Jesus are pretty laughable too.
Mary was hardly royal - no more so than thousands of other Jews who were descendants of David.
How were Joseph and Mary close relatives?
How did Jesus 'enter His Kingdom'?
His body was buried.
He left no sepulchre in Jerusalem. The NT, after the Resurrection, is totally disinterested in His temporary tomb.

Does that not seem a little suspicious to you?

Yes, it makes me extremely suspicious that somebody, rather than accurately list common characteristics of religious figures, applied a lot of ingenuity to listing things in such a way, sometimes by massive stretches, as to try to wind up his Christian friends.

Cen taurus · 13-03-2015 03:10PM

orubiru wrote: »

Well, I am pretty glad that I didn't mention Horus at all.

If you watched it you'd know it deals with other myth claims as well.

robinph · 13-03-2015 03:16PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

If you watched it you'd know it deals with other myth claims as well.

That video just shows that humans have liked making up stories about supernatural beings.

orubiru · 13-03-2015 03:16PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

If you watched it you'd know it deals with other myth claims as well.

Let's be honest here. It doesn't do anything to promote the idea that Jesus story is anything more than mythology.

The point I was making is that there is nothing all that unique about Jesus back story and there is nothing to make it any more "real" or believable than the story of many other mythological characters.

Unless you have some compelling evidence that Jesus did indeed exist and is indeed the Son of God (or God himself, that "trinity" stuff wrecks my head)?

TheLurker · 13-03-2015 03:26PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Can you, point by point provide the sources of greek mythology confirming that Zeus has also done the above, and belief in Zeus is one and the same.

I have gone through it already without providing sources.

You have now asked for sources.

I'm asking for what specifically you do not accept. Sources for this could range from a single description of a myth you are not familiar with or a 40000 word summary of the entire Greek mythology.

Frankly I am suspicious of how genuinely interested you are. And the fact that you seem to be refusing to clarify which part you are having a problem with continues to raise my suspicions.

To avoid repeating myself here is my post that dealt with the creed.

TheLurker wrote: »

Created universe - many religions claim exists of gods or beings who did this
Resurrected the dead - many religions claim beings with this power
Conceived human babies - again common in Greek, Roman, African religions
Travelled to heaven - dito
Ever lasting life - dito

So nope, sorry nothing there that if a being demonstrated those powers I could tell it was the Christian God over any other of the countless claimed beings with same power

and my post that dealt with Zeus

TheLurker wrote: »

Sure. Zeus. Or practically any of the Greek Gods. Though technically they didn't create the universe, though given they could create a new universe that makes it hard to tell if they created this universe.

As for the trinity, all the trinity means from a practical sense is that God can split himself off into different parts, some of them human. Zeus did that all the time, normally to have sex with human women.

So again I'm unaware of any ability the Christian God is supposed to have that various other deities are not supposed to have. If you can name one I'm all ears.

orubiru · 13-03-2015 03:28PM

Nick Park wrote: »

So, would you like to explain how Moses scores 20?

The 18 points for Jesus are pretty laughable too.
Mary was hardly royal - no more so than thousands of other Jews who were descendants of David.
How were Joseph and Mary close relatives?
How did Jesus 'enter His Kingdom'?
His body was buried.
He left no sepulchre in Jerusalem. The NT, after the Resurrection, is totally disinterested in His temporary tomb.

Yes, it makes me extremely suspicious that somebody, rather than accurately list common characteristics of religious figures, applied a lot of ingenuity to listing things in such a way, sometimes by massive stretches, as to try to wind up his Christian friends.

I don't think anything you've said takes anything away from the issue raised.

What is it about Jesus specifically that allows us to draw a line and say "OK, Gilgamesh, King Arthur, Zeus, Thor, Mohammad, Buddha, Horus, Achilles, Xenu and Harry Potter! You guys are over here with the Mythological Characters! Jesus, you stand over there as the one and only real deal"?

That's my problem here. I can't make the distinction.

Can you? How?

Cen taurus · 13-03-2015 03:34PM

TheLurker wrote: »

I have gone through it already without providing sources.

You have now asked for sources.

I'm asking for what specifically you do not accept. Sources for this could range from a single description of a myth you are not familiar with or a 40000 word summary of the entire Greek mythology.

Frankly I am suspicious of how genuinely interested you are. And the fact that you seem to be refusing to clarify which part you are having a problem with continues to raise my suspicions.

To avoid repeating myself here is my post that dealt with the creed.

and my post that dealt with Zeus

One line answers with ditto, no sources, and skipped half of it ? really ? thats it ?

Have you any credible sources to back up your claim ?

TheLurker · 13-03-2015 03:36PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

I identified the problem with it (and from memory it had at least one Non sequitur in the middle of it)

There is no non-sequitur in the middle of it.

Cen taurus wrote: »

and posted it at least once, and you can use the search function.

I have. I can't find it. Considering you posted it, and have repeatably made the claim you posted it, it should really be easy for you to find it.

Repeatably dismissing an argument because you claim it has fallacies which you then do not explain how or where is poor debating.

orubiru · 13-03-2015 03:38PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

One line answers with ditto, no sources, and skipped half of it ? really ? thats it ?

Have you any credible sources to back up your claim ?

Those are some God-like powers of elusiveness, I'll give you that.

Nick Park · 13-03-2015 03:39PM

orubiru wrote: »

I don't think anything you've said takes anything away from the issue raised.

Well you posted stuff (well, cut and pasted actually) that is obviously inaccurate.

Now, in my world, when people blithely post inaccuracies and then say, "Ah it doesn't really matter anyway - I'm still right" that speaks to their credibility. And that, in turn, takes away from the issues they raise.

Now, how can Moses score 20 out of 22 when the following do not apply to him?

1. His mother was neither royal nor a virgin.
2. His father was not a king.
3. His father was not a near relative of his mother.
4. There was nothing unusual about his conception.
5. He was not reputed to be a son of god.
8. He was not reared in a far country.
12. He didn't marry a princess.
13. He didn't become king.
14. He never reigned uneventfully.
17. He was not driven from a throne or city following a loss of favour.
21. His body was buried.
22. He never had a sepulchre.

So, by even the most generous interpretation, Moses cannot have scored higher than 10.

Someone pulled that figure out of their rear, and you cut and pasted it. Then, when I point this out, you say, "Well, that doesn't take anything away from the issue raised."

Hilarious.

orubiru · 13-03-2015 03:41PM

Nick Park wrote: »

Well you posted stuff (well, cut and pasted actually) that is obviously inaccurate.

Now, in my world, when people blithely post inaccuracies and then say, "Ah it doesn't really matter anyway - I'm still right" that speaks to their credibility. And that, in turn, takes away from the issues they raise.

Now, how can Moses score 20 out of 22 when the following do not apply to him?

1. His mother was neither royal nor a virgin.
2. His father was not a king.
3. His father was not a near relative of his mother.
4. There was nothing unusual about his conception.
5. He was not reputed to be a son of god.
8. He was not reared in a far country.
12. He didn't marry a princess.
13. He didn't become king.
14. He never reigned uneventfully.
17. He was not driven from a throne or city following a loss of favour.
21. His body was buried.
22. He never had a sepulchre.

So, by even the most generous interpretation, Moses cannot have scored higher than 10.

Someone pulled that figure out of their rear, and you cut and pasted it. Then, when I point this out, you say, "Well, that doesn't take anything away from the issue raised."

Hilarious.

OK. I hold my hands up. I am wrong there. You are right.

What is it about Jesus specifically that allows us to draw a line and say "OK, Gilgamesh, King Arthur, Zeus, Thor, Mohammad, Buddha, Horus, Achilles, Xenu and Harry Potter! You guys are over here with the Mythological Characters! Jesus, you stand over there as the one and only real deal"?

That's my problem here. I can't make the distinction.

Can you? How?

Nick Park · 13-03-2015 03:48PM

orubiru wrote: »

OK. I hold my hands up. I am wrong there. You are right.

What is it about Jesus specifically that allows us to draw a line and say "OK, Gilgamesh, King Arthur, Zeus, Thor, Mohammad, Buddha, Horus, Achilles, Xenu and Harry Potter! You guys are over here with the Mythological Characters! Jesus, you stand over there as the one and only real deal"?

That's my problem here. I can't make the distinction.

Can you? How?

I'm sorry that you can't make a distinction between Harry Potter (a fictional character, clearly stated to be such by his still-living novelist creator) Xenu (a figure who no-one wrote about until 75 million years after he was supposed to have lived) and Jesus (someone who is presented as a historical figure and who attracted tens of thousands of followers within a timespan where the claimed eye-witnesses were still alive).

But I don't think your inability to make a distinction between them is a persuasive argument as to why theists should abandon their belief in God. If anything, your inability to make such a distinction simply informs the rest of us as to the reliability your own decision-making processes.

TheLurker · 13-03-2015 03:50PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

One line answers with ditto, no sources, and skipped half of it ? really ? thats it ?

Have you any credible sources to back up your claim ?

If you ignore this after the time it took to compile it I will be VERY VERY ANNOYED

Created universe
http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/The_Myths/Creation_of_Man_by_Prometheus/creation_of_man_by_prometheus.html
Instead, they were given the task of creating man. Prometheus shaped man out of mud, and Athena breathed life into his clay figure.

Take human form
http://www.penn.museum/sites/greek_world/religion.html
They worshipped many gods whom they believed appeared in human form and yet were endowed with superhuman strength and ageless beauty

Resurrected the dead
http://www.greekmythology.com/Other_Gods/Dionysus/dionysus.html
Dionysus became one of the most important gods in everyday life and was associated with several key concepts. One was rebirth after death; his dismemberment by the Titans and his return to life was symbolically echoed in viticulture, where the vines must be pruned back sharply, and then become dormant in winter for them to bear fruit.

Conceived human babies
https://www.awesomestories.com/asset/view/Perseus-Son-of-Zeus
Perseus, so the legends say, was a son of Zeus. In Greek mythology, there were many sons of Zeus.

Travelled to heaven
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus

Everlasting life
http://www.greekmythology.com/Other_Gods/Dionysus/dionysus.html
His birth from Zeus conferred immortality upon him.

Cen taurus · 13-03-2015 03:52PM

orubiru wrote: »

OK. I hold my hands up. I am wrong there. You are right.

What is it about Jesus specifically that allows us to draw a line and say "OK, Gilgamesh, King Arthur, Zeus, Thor, Mohammad, Buddha, Horus, Achilles, Xenu and Harry Potter! You guys are over here with the Mythological Characters! Jesus, you stand over there as the one and only real deal"?

That's my problem here. I can't make the distinction.

Can you? How?

By reading reputable sources :

The Christ Myth theories find virtually no support from scholars, in fact :

Proffessor Michael Grant, a foremost Cambridge Historan (and an atheist) sums it up :

"This sceptical way of thinking reached its culmination in the argument that Jesus as a human being never existed at all and is a myth.... But above all, if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned. Certainly, there are all those discrepancies between one Gospel and another. But we do not deny that an event ever took place just because some pagan historians such as, for example, Livy and Polybius, happen to have described it in differing terms.... To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.' In recent years, 'no serous scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary."

orubiru · 13-03-2015 04:05PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

By reading reputable sources :

The Christ Myth theories find virtually no support from scholars, in fact :

Proffessor Michael Grant, a foremost Cambridge Historan (and an atheist) sums it up :

"This sceptical way of thinking reached its culmination in the argument that Jesus as a human being never existed at all and is a myth.... But above all, if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned. Certainly, there are all those discrepancies between one Gospel and another. But we do not deny that an event ever took place just because some pagan historians such as, for example, Livy and Polybius, happen to have described it in differing terms.... To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.' In recent years, 'no serous scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary."

Sorry, I have stated multiple times on this thread that I do believe that Jesus, as a historical figure, existed.

My dispute is with the "supernatural" claims surrounding Jesus. How can we distinguish those from Mythology?

Cen taurus · 13-03-2015 04:09PM

TheLurker wrote: »

If you ignore this after the time it took to compile it I will be VERY VERY ANNOYED

If you post anything as poorly done and constructed again, I will be ignoring it.

TheLurker wrote: »

Created universe

Instead, they were given the task of creating man. Prometheus shaped man out of mud, and Athena breathed life into his clay figure.

No mention of the universe

TheLurker wrote: »

Take human form

They worshipped many gods whom they believed appeared in human form and yet were endowed with superhuman strength and ageless beauty

No mention of be born as and living as physical human being

TheLurker wrote: »

Resurrected the dead

Dionysus became one of the most important gods in everyday life and was associated with several key concepts. One was rebirth after death; his dismemberment by the Titans and his return to life was symbolically echoed in viticulture, where the vines must be pruned back sharply, and then become dormant in winter for them to bear fruit.

No mention of crucifixion.

TheLurker wrote: »

Conceived human babies

Perseus, so the legends say, was a son of Zeus. In Greek mythology, there were many sons of Zeus.

The creed is very clear about only son.

TheLurker wrote: »

Travelled to heaven

Mount Olympus is in greece, its not heaven

In addition to the above errors, no mention of 3, 4, 5 (to the dead) 6, Right hand , 7, 8, 9,10

1. I believe in God the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
4. Under Pontius Pilate, He was crucified, died, and was buried.
5. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again.
6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
10. the forgiveness of sins,
11. the resurrection of the body,
12. and the life everlasting.

Cen taurus · 13-03-2015 04:17PM

orubiru wrote: »

My dispute is with the "supernatural" claims surrounding Jesus. How can we distinguish those from Mythology?

What would convince you, can you give an example and why it would convince you ?

orubiru · 13-03-2015 04:20PM

Nick Park wrote: »

I'm sorry that you can't make a distinction between Harry Potter (a fictional character, clearly stated to be such by his still-living novelist creator) Xenu (a figure who no-one wrote about until 75 million years after he was supposed to have lived) and Jesus (someone who is presented as a historical figure and who attracted tens of thousands of followers within a timespan where the claimed eye-witnesses were still alive).

But I don't think your inability to make a distinction between them is a persuasive argument as to why theists should abandon their belief in God. If anything, your inability to make such a distinction simply informs the rest of us as to the reliability your own decision-making processes.

I am not saying that Theists should abandon their belief in God. I am saying that Theists should be able to explain why their God exists and other Gods do not.

I can explain that I am an Atheist because I lack belief in all Gods.

However, you lack belief in all Gods except for one.

I have been unable to distinguish between the validity of one God when compared to others and as a result I lack belief in all of them.

However, you ARE able to see the difference and so you believe in the one God that has convinced you. (and in the process have insisted that the others do not exist, which I something I have not done as I simply lack belief)

How are you able to see the difference though?

If Jesus (the man) existed then does it follow logically that Jesus was the Son of God (or God Himself)?

TheLurker · 13-03-2015 04:28PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

No mention of the universe

No, the Greeks believed that the universe was made by Titans. So just replace Zeus with Titans, same issue

Cen taurus wrote: »

No mention of be born as and living as physical human being

Yes there is. The gods both took human form, took animal form and had human children.

No mention of crucifixion.

There is mentions of gods and demigods dying and coming back to life.

If you think dying on a cross would some how help me tell the difference between deities please enlighten me

The creed is very clear about only son.

Again how does that make me tell the difference between God and Zeus. If God can only have ONE son that is a limitation Zeus doesn't have, thus if it was Zeus he would be even more powerful that God.

Mount Olympus is in greece, its not heaven

Mount Oylmpus is heaven in Greek mythology, and Zeus is described as moving to and from it at will. Thus if I encountered a being that could move to and fro from heaven to Earth how could I tell it was God and not Zeus

In addition to the above faults, no mention of 3, 4, 5 (to the dead) 6, Right hand , 7, 8, 9,10

That is because we are talking about the POWERS the deity has. Powers that could be tested if he turned up in front of me.

You seem to have forgotten what we were even discussing.

God has no powers or abilities that Zeus does not also have. And Zeus seems to have more if you count having only one son as a restriction on God.

So again what characteristic of God would allow me to test that it is God in front of me and ONLY God in front of me rather than a more powerful deity such as Zeus pretending to be God?

I knew you would do this, I'm sorry I wasted my time. :mad:

orubiru · 13-03-2015 04:29PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

What would convince you, can you give an example and why it would convince you ?

I'm not sure it's a valid question here as anything that Jesus could do to convince me, well, Horus could also do that thing. So could Zeus. Or Thor.

The question is if these mythological figures can all convince you and they can all bring something convincing to the table. How can you tell which one is most real, or genuine or most convincing?

I know that being raised in a Catholic country means you might not even know to much about other Gods or other figures from history and by the time you are old enough to learn you might be leaning heavily one way or another.

Does it mean that the choice between, for example, Buddha and Jesus is just a personal one?

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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