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A discussion on the rules.

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Comments

  • #2102
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    K-9 wrote: »
    The, I don't see any particular reason why it shouldn't be there.

    I would add some consistency from users with horses in the race would help mods greatly and improve the forum experience.

    A good point.

    The Cafe will only work if people evolve two styles of posting/responding/debating, one for the Cafe and one for the main forum. Then, if people want a thread moved to the main forum, they should start posting in it as if it was the main forum.

    I agree with Permabear that the SF threads to attract a lower level of posting, mainly because of the current inability of anyone on either side to make sense out of the SF policy positions - the health service thread on the pay of doctors being one. There may well be an argument around how lowering the pay of consultants but increasing the numbers while reducing the number of nurses may improve the health service but it is one that nobody representing SF appears to be able to make in a coherent manner. Perhaps, as SF refines its policies in the run-up to the general election, they will get the message out and their supporters will be able to repeat the arguments on here.


  • #2103
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    K-9 wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Leave political beliefs, consistency of arguments and even the fact that SF was the subject aside for a moment (it could happen on any topic) it seems to me that the reason the thread was posted in Cafe was to enable people to be able to make comments like these,(otherwise there must be a valid reason why it wasn't posted in the main forum, it is a serious and legitimate OP) there are other examples in that thread where this type of comment was resorted to.
    I think it wouldn't be too hard for a mod to assess an OP and make a decision about motive, and move a thread the other way-into the main forum where this kind of comment would be moderated.
    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Oddly enough, in spite of direct contact with the Army Council Sinn Fein HQ, it seems that the premise of the first post is true.

    We are still waiting for any Shinner to explain why fewer doctors and consultants will make for a better health system.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.


  • #2104
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Godge wrote: »
    A good point.

    The Cafe will only work if people evolve two styles of posting/responding/debating, one for the Cafe and one for the main forum. Then, if people want a thread moved to the main forum, they should start posting in it as if it was the main forum.

    I agree with Permabear that the SF threads to attract a lower level of posting, mainly because of the current inability of anyone on either side to make sense out of the SF policy positions - the health service thread on the pay of doctors being one. There may well be an argument around how lowering the pay of consultants but increasing the numbers while reducing the number of nurses may improve the health service but it is one that nobody representing SF appears to be able to make in a coherent manner. Perhaps, as SF refines its policies in the run-up to the general election, they will get the message out and their supporters will be able to repeat the arguments on here.


    And again, dragging that mentality into a feedback thread about the forum general helps not a jot.


  • #2105
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    As long as threads like this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057393382
    are allowed to be posted in Politics Café without questions as to the motive, then there is going to be problems.
    If you look at the thread, there is clearly only one reason why it was posted there, that being that the OP wanted to be able and wanted others to able to rant un-moderated or with lax moderation, when it suited them.

    If I am wrong, could somebody give a good reason why it wasn't posted in the main forum, as it is a serious and good question? (as the OP is contributing here, maybe they can chip in too?)
    I was wrong to post it in Politics Cafe? And I have to be accountable to you? :confused:

    And can you explain what is wrong with posting something with 'an agenda'? Of course I have an agenda - I want to air what I think is a dangerous policy.

    Do you not have an agenda, spending 18 hours a day posting in support of Sinn Fein, even though you are not even a member according to yourself?

    Why is your agenda of cheerleading Sinn Fein acceptable, while my agenda of cheerleading nobody but pointing out holes in dangerous policies is not acceptable?


  • #2106
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    I suppose anyone who thinks a thread should be in the main forum should report the OP and ask for it to be moved. Having said that, it could take some work to sanitise a thread to move it over and maybe starting a second thread for more formal debate may work better.


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  • #2107
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    I was wrong to post it in Politics Cafe? And I have to be accountable to you? :confused:

    And can you explain what is wrong with posting something with 'an agenda'? Of course I have an agenda - I want to air what I think is a dangerous policy.

    Do you not have an agenda, spending 18 hours a day posting in support of Sinn Fein, even though you are not even a member according to yourself?

    Why is your agenda of cheerleading Sinn Fein acceptable, while my agenda of cheerleading nobody but pointing out holes in dangerous policies is not acceptable?

    Instead of going on the attack, can you give us a 'credible' reason for not posting in the main forum? You made a choice, plainly, I just want to tease out the reasons for that choice.


  • #2108
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Nodin wrote: »
    And again, dragging that mentality into a feedback thread about the forum general helps not a jot.


    I am not dragging a mentality into a feedback forum, I made supporting arguments for those points.

    It is a reality that not one post in that thread has been able to demonstrate a causal link between reducing consultant pay and improving the health service. There is not a single empirical example of how such a strategy worked elsewhere there isn't even a theoretical mechanism set out for how it would work.

    On the other hand, there have been numerous links to articles and research showing how difficult it has been to retain consultants in Ireland and how the government increased pay in the last year to deal with it. These show clearly the inherent dangers in the SF policy.

    Now there are actually intelligent arguments out there as to how it might work - it would involve far wider changes to the system of delivery of health care - but there is nobody on the SF side making those arguments.

    So when I argue that there isn't anybody capable of explaining SF policy in detail as to how it would work, I am making a point of fact.


  • #2109
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    I am not dragging a mentality into a feedback forum, I made supporting arguments for those points.

    It is a reality that not one post in that thread has been able to demonstrate a causal link between reducing consultant pay and improving the health service. There is not a single empirical example of how such a strategy worked elsewhere there isn't even a theoretical mechanism set out for how it would work.

    On the other hand, there have been numerous links to articles and research showing how difficult it has been to retain consultants in Ireland and how the government increased pay in the last year to deal with it. These show clearly the inherent dangers in the SF policy.

    Now there are actually intelligent arguments out there as to how it might work - it would involve far wider changes to the system of delivery of health care - but there is nobody on the SF side making those arguments.

    So when I argue that there isn't anybody capable of explaining SF policy in detail as to how it would work, I am making a point of fact.

    I am not here to re-argue the OP, I am making a point separate to it.


  • #2110
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Instead of going on the attack, can you give us a 'credible' reason for not posting in the main forum? You made a choice, plainly, I just want to tease out the reasons for that choice.
    You can tease all you like. If you want to dictate what and where people post, I suggest you start your own site.


  • #2111
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #2112
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Godge wrote: »
    I am not dragging a mentality into a feedback forum, I made supporting arguments for those points.
    ..............

    No, you and others have dragged the attack dog mentality into the thread, as the last number of posts show. It's now just another partisan crap slinging fest. Well done.


  • #2113
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    You can tease all you like. If you want to dictate what and where people post, I suggest you start your own site.

    I am not dictating anything. I am offering an opinion/suggestion on how the site could be better moderated (which I think you will find this thread is for). And that necessitated quoting the type of topic I was talking about. It was not an invitation to re-argue the OP.


  • #2114
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Don't get me wrong, there's 2 sides at it.

    It comes back to mods not babysitting users. The Op, after everybody dug their trenches, was dealt with brilliantly, by a thing called facts and getting in contact with the relevant party to clear up confusion.

    There's potential still there to have a decent discussion yet, it's up to the users to do that.

    We give posters a fair bit of rope in the cafe, often crap sorts itself out by users copping on themselves, things calm down and people get on with it, and that's great to see.

    I accept users are just getting the feel of the place and mods have been very lenient to help that. If anybody is coming to mod attention there it's for damn good reasons.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #2115
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I am not here to re-argue the OP, I am making a point separate to it.
    Nodin wrote: »
    No, you and others have dragged the attack dog mentality into the thread, as the last number of posts show. It's now just another partisan crap slinging fest. Well done.


    An argument was made that the thread should have been in the main forum.

    In response I am pointing out, using examples from the thread, how the level of response from those supporting the SF policy, require the thread to be in the Cafe. If the thread was moved to the main forum, the only posts that would be allowed would be those showing the problems of recruitment using links to various news articles and those exposing the hypocrisy of Gerry Adams on the subject.


  • #2116
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Godge wrote: »
    An argument was made that the thread should have been in the main forum.

    In response I am pointing out, using examples from the thread, how the level of response from those supporting the SF policy, require the thread to be in the Cafe. If the thread was moved to the main forum, the only posts that would be allowed would be those showing the problems of recruitment using links to various news articles and those exposing the hypocrisy of Gerry Adams on the subject.

    Yeah my side is the Gooder one!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #2117
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #2118
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    I don't think the problem is unique to Sinn Fein supporters


  • #2119
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    An argument was made that the thread should have been in the main forum.

    In response I am pointing out, using examples from the thread, how the level of response from those supporting the SF policy, require the thread to be in the Cafe. If the thread was moved to the main forum, the only posts that would be allowed would be those showing the problems of recruitment using links to various news articles and those exposing the hypocrisy of Gerry Adams on the subject.

    Here is the most recent locked thread in the main forum on the subject of SF and the IRA. It is clear why the thread was locked and why (the type of comments that are being made and snipped by the mod)

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057385299

    It is my contention that the 'Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster' topic was posted in the Cafe to allow similar comments to be made. And this can be avoided by a quick perusal of the opening post by a mod and making a decision on the motivation for posting it there. The Cafe is being abused imo.


  • #2120
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Did you report the post?


  • #2121
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #2122
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Jep Gambardella wrote: »
    Did you report the post?

    Me, I presume?

    I have given up on reporting posts tbh. I rarely if ever get a response. I took myself out of the thread though.


  • #2123
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #2124
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Well, I am following the debate about that and I am not convinced by any side yet. I like the idea of a looser banter style area.

    I don't think it is rocket science to make a judgement call on what type of OP's are potentially going to cause problems though, without greatly increasing the workload of the mods.


  • #2125
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #2126
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Well, in my defence, I don't think it is a co-incidence that the OP was instrumental in the locking of the last IRA and SF thread in the main forum. Clearly, he/she was not allowed (snipped posts and the warning) to say certain things. Therefore deliberately opened a thread in the Cafe. That is outright abuse of the Cafe imo and could be easily and swiftly dealt with.


  • #2127
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    No...I said it should have been opened in the main forum, and if not opened there, it should have been moved to the main forum. I believe it is a legitimate and serious topic for discussion.


  • #2128
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Well, I am following the debate about that and I am not convinced by any side yet. I like the idea of a looser banter style area.

    I don't think it is rocket science to make a judgement call on what type of OP's are potentially going to cause problems though, without greatly increasing the workload of the mods.



    But it's a discussion forum and eventually it was shown the Op was based on old policy.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #2129
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #2130
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I have given up on reporting posts tbh. I rarely if ever get a response. I took myself out of the thread though.

    But you said yourself:
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    And this can be avoided by a quick perusal of the opening post by a mod and making a decision on the motivation for posting it there. The Cafe is being abused imo.

    How can you expect a mod to even read the thread if you don't report it? They're not psychic and they're not on duty 24/7, scanning threads for potential issues.


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  • #2131
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Jep Gambardella wrote: »
    But you said yourself:



    How can you expect a mod to even read the thread if you don't report it? They're not psychic and they're not on duty 24/7, scanning threads for potential issues.

    Is it that difficult to scan a half a dozen(some days it wouldn't even be that) topics opened in the course of a day?

    Maybe it is too much of an ask, I don't know the workload or what is expected of a mod.


This discussion has been closed.
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