Virgin Mary

oldozer · 12-03-2015 10:56PM

homer911 wrote: »

Four men—James, Joses, Simon, and Judas—are mentioned as the brothers or siblings of Jesus

Matthew 13:55
Mark 6:3

We also have
Matthew 1:25 - Consummation
Luke 2:7 - First born (not only)
John 2:12 - Brothers
In Matthew 12:46-50; Mark 3:31-35; Luke 8:19-21 We have Mary and the brothers seeking to talk with Jesus

Its also possible that Mary had daughters, but there role in society was different at the time and they could easily not have been mentioned (but that's just guessing)

Thank you for that........

Four men—James, Joses, Simon, and Judas—are mentioned as the brothers or siblings of Jesus

Matthew 13:55
Mark 6:3

Never heard of Joses.

If you will ? Will I find those in Douay Rheims ?

Does it use the word siblings ?

Regards, Dozer.

Cen taurus · 12-03-2015 11:05PM

homer911 wrote: »

Not if they are already dead, only God can hear our prayer (and those people on earth who overhear us of course..)

Only if you edit scripture.

keano_afc · 12-03-2015 11:40PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Only if you edit scripture.

What, like splitting a commandment in two?

Cen taurus · 13-03-2015 12:03AM

keano_afc wrote: »

What, like splitting a commandment in two?

No like cutting out books that don't suit your agenda, changing words, and inserting new ones.

hinault · 13-03-2015 12:12AM

homer911 wrote: »

Hi Cen taurus

I think there are two points being made here rather than one

1) The saying of repeated prayers in community, sometimes in front of an uninvolved audience - the Bible tells us to pray in private

2) The thoughtless repetition of prayer - often, in the minds of protestants at least, associated with catholics doing "laps of the rosary" at the fastest possible speed.

Prayer is about spending time with God, its not the repeated delivery of a telegram. If prayer doesn't come from the heart, what's the point? Conversely, if it comes from the heart then I'm sure all prayer is acceptable to God, if directed to Him.

I know nothing of your prayer life, so I'm not having a go at you. There are many protestants who would not even pray the Lord's Prayer/Our Father because they associate it with thoughtless repetition.

In the Catholic tradition, prayer can take several form.
The spoken/uttered prayer is only means to express prayer.

Other forms of prayer in the catholic tradition include contemplative prayer.
The Eucharistic Adoration, where one sits or kneels in the presence of the Eucharist, can be a suitable location for contemplative prayer.

Meditative prayer is another form of prayer in the Catholic tradition.

In respect of the Rosary, when one prays the Rosary one should meditate upon the mystery of the whichever part of the Rosary is being prayed.
The mysteries are the biblical accounts that pertain to the life of Jesus.

Each mystery will form the basis for saying the prayers of the Rosary.
For example, the Glorius Mystery includes the descent of the Holy Spirit in to the Upper Room in Jerusalem and the anointment of the apostles.

In praying the rosary for that mystery, the worshiper should meditate upon how the apostles were transformed by the Holy Ghost, how their faculties were improved, how their courage and wisdom increased, how their fears were allayed, etc, as they repeat the prayers of the Rosary.

keano_afc · 13-03-2015 08:47AM

Cen taurus wrote: »

No like cutting out books that don't suit your agenda, changing words, and inserting new ones.

So that's a yes then.

homer911 · 13-03-2015 08:52AM

Cen taurus wrote: »

No like cutting out books that don't suit your agenda, changing words, and inserting new ones.

Oh please! We all know that the Catholic bible contains books in the Old Testament that even the Jews have rejected, this is not something we have done personally - perhaps you should research the topic for yourself

As regards changing words and inserting new ones, well thats simply the retort of someone who has nothing better to say - the most scholarly Bible translations always go back to the oldest sources and any Christian with any sense will always compare translations for confirmation/insight

If you have actual examples of your claims pertinent to this discussion then by all means share them, unless of course you are referring to edits on your side of the debate..

homer911 · 13-03-2015 08:56AM

hinault wrote: »

In the Catholic tradition, prayer can take several form.
The spoken/uttered prayer is only means to express prayer.

Other forms of prayer in the catholic tradition include contemplative prayer.
The Eucharistic Adoration, where one sits or kneels in the presence of the Eucharist, can be a suitable location for contemplative prayer.

Meditative prayer is another form of prayer in the Catholic tradition.

In respect of the Rosary, when one prays the Rosary one should meditate upon the mystery of the whichever part of the Rosary is being prayed.
The mysteries are the biblical accounts that pertain to the life of Jesus.

Each mystery will form the basis for saying the prayers of the Rosary.
For example, the Glorius Mystery includes the descent of the Holy Spirit in to the Upper Room in Jerusalem and the anointment of the apostles.

In praying the rosary for that mystery, the worshiper should meditate upon how the apostles were transformed by the Holy Ghost, how their faculties were improved, how their courage and wisdom increased, how their fears were allayed, etc, as they repeat the prayers of the Rosary.

Not exactly addressing the point of thoughtless repetition - its a bit hard to pray one thing while meditating about another without the prayer becoming thoughtless repetition..

homer911 · 13-03-2015 09:02AM

oldozer wrote: »

If you will ? Will I find those in Douay Rheims ?

Does it use the word siblings ?

Regards, Dozer.

Joses is from the King James translation, otherwise translated as Joseph

Yes to the Douay Rheims - eg http://biblehub.com/matthew/13-55.htm
(This refers to Judas as Jude, but still lists four brothers)

No, the word sibling is not used, just the word brother

Cen taurus · 13-03-2015 10:08AM

keano_afc wrote: »

So that's a yes then.

Read the first two letter again, and tell the truth.

hinault · 13-03-2015 11:30AM

homer911 wrote: »

Not exactly addressing the point of thoughtless repetition - its a bit hard to pray one thing while meditating about another without the prayer becoming thoughtless repetition..

I don't know the point that you're attempting to make.

Each mystery of the Rosary pertains to an event in the life of Jesus. The worshiper is urged to contemplate an event as part of praying the Rosary (each mystery of the Rosary).

Let me make this as simplistic for you so that you may be able to understand.

I decide to pray the Luminous mysteries of the Rosary.
There are 5 Luminous mysteries : The Lord's Baptism, The Wedding Feast at Cana, The Proclamation of the Kingdom, The Transfiguration, The Institution of the Eucharist.

In order to pray the Luminous mysteries Rosary, I read a passage of the gospel about each mystery, before saying the Rosary for each mystery.

So I read the gospel passage about the Lord's baptism, meditate in silence upon the words of that gospel passage, I try to visualise Jesus going to the river Jordan and I try to visualise the discussion between Jesus and John the Baptist and about how John feels and how Jesus affirms John, I try to visualise John ministering to Jesus, I try to visualise the dove descending from the heavens, I try to visualise the proclamation from God about Jesus.
Then having meditated upon all of that, I recite the prayers that are the Rosary for that mystery.

homer911 · 13-03-2015 12:01PM

hinault wrote: »

I don't know the point that you're attempting to make.

Each mystery of the Rosary pertains to an event in the life of Jesus. The worshiper is urged to contemplate an event as part of praying the Rosary (each mystery of the Rosary).

Let me make this as simplistic for you so that you may be able to understand.

I decide to pray the Luminous mysteries of the Rosary.
There are 5 Luminous mysteries : The Lord's Baptism, The Wedding Feast at Cana, The Proclamation of the Kingdom, The Transfiguration, The Institution of the Eucharist.

In order to pray the Luminous mysteries Rosary, I read a passage of the gospel about each mystery, before saying the Rosary for each mystery.

So I read the gospel passage about the Lord's baptism, meditate in silence upon the words of that gospel passage, I try to visualise Jesus going to the river Jordan and I try to visualise the discussion between Jesus and John the Baptist and about how John feels and how Jesus affirms John, I try to visualise John ministering to Jesus, I try to visualise the dove descending from the heavens, I try to visualise the proclamation from God about Jesus.
Then having meditated upon all of that, I recite the prayers that are the Rosary for that mystery.

Your previous post implied you did both at the same time. Again I cant comment on your personal prayer life but there is a genuine concern that both Catholics and Protestants engage in thoughtless repetition of prayers, partly by praying the same thing all the time and partly by praying at great speed. Dont priests often decree things at confession such as "..say 5 hail marys and 3 our fathers..."
(open to correction..)

Coming back on topic, doesnt the "hail mary" involve petitioning Mary to pray for the pray-er?

hinault · 13-03-2015 12:29PM

homer911 wrote: »

Your previous post implied you did both at the same time. Again I cant comment on your personal prayer life but there is a genuine concern that both Catholics and Protestants engage in thoughtless repetition of prayers, partly by praying the same thing all the time and partly by praying at great speed.

I can't comment on the meditative prayers that others say because those prayers are usually prayed in silence.

Nor can I comment on the contemplative prayers that others say because those prayers are usually prayed in silence also.

The uttered prayer being repetition? Well I've outlined the preparation taken to say the Rosary. That preparation is not standardised. People are free to pray the Rosary in their own way.

You could argue that text of the prayers offered at Mass, the text of the prayers offered at services, are the same week in and week out. As a counterpoint the need to standardise forms of uttered prayer makes sense in order to maintain cohesion during those respective gatherings of woshipers.

homer911 wrote: »

Coming back on topic, doesnt the "hail mary" involve petitioning Mary to pray for the pray-er?

Catholics pray the Hail Mary because Catholicism acknowledges the role that Blessed Virgin had in the life and ministry of Jesus Christ.

Catholics ask Mary to pray for us sinners.
Catholics pray to the Archangel Michael.
Catholics pray a prayer to many saints.

Catholics pray for other members of the congregation every day at Mass.

If someone else asks me to pray for them, in their asking me are they praying to me?

oldozer · 13-03-2015 05:07PM

homer911 wrote: »

Joses is from the King James translation, otherwise translated as Joseph

Yes to the Douay Rheims - eg
(This refers to Judas as Jude, but still lists four brothers)

No, the word sibling is not used, just the word brother

First result on giggle as I looked after last reply.

Oh Noes........More stuff to read.

Regards, Dozer.

oldozer · 13-03-2015 05:45PM

hinault wrote: »

I don't know the point that you're attempting to make.

Each mystery of the Rosary pertains to an event in the life of Jesus. The worshiper is urged to contemplate an event as part of praying the Rosary (each mystery of the Rosary).

Let me make this as simplistic for you so that you may be able to understand.

I decide to pray the Luminous mysteries of the Rosary.
There are 5 Luminous mysteries : The Lord's Baptism, The Wedding Feast at Cana, The Proclamation of the Kingdom, The Transfiguration, The Institution of the Eucharist.

In order to pray the Luminous mysteries Rosary, I read a passage of the gospel about each mystery, before saying the Rosary for each mystery.

So I read the gospel passage about the Lord's baptism, meditate in silence upon the words of that gospel passage, I try to visualise Jesus going to the river Jordan and I try to visualise the discussion between Jesus and John the Baptist and about how John feels and how Jesus affirms John, I try to visualise John ministering to Jesus, I try to visualise the dove descending from the heavens, I try to visualise the proclamation from God about Jesus.
Then having meditated upon all of that, I recite the prayers that are the Rosary for that mystery.

You do seem to over complicate such a simple gift given by Our Holy Mother. Maybe that is why I tend to steer clear of Bible people. I have only ever known one man I can recall who was of a Biblical nature. I have met and talked to a lot of people on religious subjects, but that man was different. He was an old Navvie I once worked with who would use words from The Bible in daily discourse...........Yes, even digging holes in the ground.

Our Holy Mother gave to a simple man This gift. We could of course and most likely are supposed to be contemplative of The Mysteries. There is a much simpler way though I have found. We could offer a rose (different colours for each Mystery), as we say our prayer. Those roses would then be bound at the end of The Rosary with one Hail Mary.

Gospel passages I have always thought to be The Word of God given through His Son Jesus via The Chalice of The Mother of God. It is really in essence (The Rosary), a simple gift as one would give a gift to a child. Makes me think of Jesus on The River Jordan. He just stood there and called to simple fishermen. He chose as per The Word of His Father to seek simple folk to pass on His Massages. There were any number of priests, thinkers, and so called holy men, but He in His wisdom chose simple people.

JP ll gave us The Luminous Mysteries which I think was a bit of a stretch on his part. To ask someone of an old faith to try to contemplate The Transfiguration, The Proclamation of The Kingdom, not such an easy task. Maybe just old age. But from Vatican ll which had us loose so much reverence. This Sacrifice seems to have been lost along the way.

Regards, Dozer.

hinault · 13-03-2015 07:56PM

oldozer wrote: »

You do seem to over complicate such a simple gift given by Our Holy Mother. Maybe that is why I tend to steer clear of Bible people. I have only ever known one man I can recall who was of a Biblical nature. I have met and talked to a lot of people on religious subjects, but that man was different. He was an old Navvie I once worked with who would use words from The Bible in daily discourse...........Yes, even digging holes in the ground.

Our Holy Mother gave to a simple man This gift. We could of course and most likely are supposed to be contemplative of The Mysteries. There is a much simpler way though I have found. We could offer a rose (different colours for each Mystery), as we say our prayer. Those roses would then be bound at the end of The Rosary with one Hail Mary.

Gospel passages I have always thought to be The Word of God given through His Son Jesus via The Chalice of The Mother of God. It is really in essence (The Rosary), a simple gift as one would give a gift to a child. Makes me think of Jesus on The River Jordan. He just stood there and called to simple fishermen. He chose as per The Word of His Father to seek simple folk to pass on His Massages. There were any number of priests, thinkers, and so called holy men, but He in His wisdom chose simple people.

JP ll gave us The Luminous Mysteries which I think was a bit of a stretch on his part. To ask someone of an old faith to try to contemplate The Transfiguration, The Proclamation of The Kingdom, not such an easy task. Maybe just old age. But from Vatican ll which had us loose so much reverence. This Sacrifice seems to have been lost along the way.

Regards, Dozer.

I agree, Dozer, the Rosary is a simple gift. When I say the Rosary I try contemplate the mystery that I'm praying and the only way I can do that is to read the gospel to which the, for example, the Joyful mystery, applies.

If folk can contemplate the mysteries without having to read the gospel, fair dues to them:)

katydid · 13-03-2015 08:49PM

hinault wrote: »

I agree, Dozer, the Rosary is a simple gift. When I say the Rosary I try contemplate the mystery that I'm praying and the only way I can do that is to read the gospel to which the, for example, the Joyful mystery, applies.

If folk can contemplate the mysteries without having to read the gospel, fair dues to them:)

How can you read the gospel and say the rosary at the same time?

hinault · 13-03-2015 09:18PM

katydid wrote: »

How can you read the gospel and say the rosary at the same time?

That's not what I said earlier.

Select the Rosary mystery that you intend to pray.
Read the gospel which recounts the mystery and contemplate the gospel account.
Then pray the Rosary.

katydid · 13-03-2015 09:25PM

hinault wrote: »

That's not what I said earlier.

Select the Rosary mystery that you intend to pray.
Read the gospel which recounts the mystery and contemplate the gospel account.
Then pray the Rosary.

Ok

oldozer · 13-03-2015 10:24PM

hinault wrote: »

I agree, Dozer, the Rosary is a simple gift. When I say the Rosary I try contemplate the mystery that I'm praying and the only way I can do that is to read the gospel to which the, for example, the Joyful mystery, applies.

If folk can contemplate the mysteries without having to read the gospel, fair dues to them:)

Thank you ( I think ).

Maybe just my old mechanical mind./ The big wheels we seem to notice, but the littlest one help....

Dozer.

justback83 · 01-03-2017 07:52PM

So.........while on holiday in Kusadasi I went to vist the house of the Virgin Mary today. What a load of absolute tripe. Paid €17 for myself and husband to enter, on my mothers orders. This place is ridiculous!!! It's based on some girls in Germany's "visions". I think we call these "notoins" in Ireland. I find myself so annoyed by this place! It's never been authenticated by the RC church, due to scientific inaccuracies (which I find hilarious!!!!). Anyone else ever been here?!

hinault · 09-03-2017 05:11PM

justback83 wrote: »

So.........while on holiday in Kusadasi I went to vist the house of the Virgin Mary today. What a load of absolute tripe. Paid €17 for myself and husband to enter, on my mothers orders. This place is ridiculous!!! It's based on some girls in Germany's "visions". I think we call these "notoins" in Ireland. I find myself so annoyed by this place! It's never been authenticated by the RC church, due to scientific inaccuracies (which I find hilarious!!!!). Anyone else ever been here?!

I visited that location almost two years ago. The location is close to the ancient city of Ephesus (Ephesians) to whom St.Paul wrote during his ministry.

The location was very interesting to visit, I found. It is a remote location with a small house and a small oratory.

It is said to be the location where Mary is said to have lived out her final years on Earth. I believe that the Church has not said one way or the other whether the location is where Mary settled after fleeing from Jerusalem.

It is interesting too that the local muslims for centuries referred to the location as the House of the Lady.

Here is an interesting link discussing the location
http://www.catholictradition.org/Assumption/ephesus1.htm

Pope Benedict XVI on his visit to Turkey visited the location in 2006.

LordSutch · 18-03-2017 09:08PM

Virgin Mary = Jesus's earthly mother, good blessed lady to be respected & acknowledged as such, end of.

That's as far as we (Prods) take it really.

All our prayers, all our attention, and all our focus, is directly aimed towards Jesus & God.

lazybones32 · 18-03-2017 09:50PM

...and the holy Spirit? Don't forget Him because He has much to say to you too.

If it's okay to marvel at God's creation; sunrise, sunset, mountains, lakes, me, etc; then it must be okay to marvel at the people He has blessed in a singular fashion.
Praising Mary for what God has done for her and through her is a scriptural notion and when Mary was praised, she returned the praise to God threefold. Certain Catholics and Prods (and whatever Tatranska is) see it as a deification of the BVM but it's not like that at all. She is a creature, like the rest of us, but has been blessed in a way no other human ever was or ever will be.

LordSutch · 18-03-2017 10:18PM

... yes indeed, God the father, God the son, and God the Holy spirit.

The Virgin Mary is not mentioned in our prayers.

I do acknlowedge Roman Catholics & their beliefs in relation to the Virgin Mary, but that's where we on this branch of the Christian Church would differ. No disrespect to the Virgin Mary intended.

......... · 19-03-2017 07:20PM

LordSutch wrote: »

... yes indeed, God the father, God the son, and God the Holy spirit.

The Virgin Mary is not mentioned in our prayers.

I do acknlowedge Roman Catholics & their beliefs in relation to the Virgin Mary, but that's where we on this branch of the Christian Church would differ. No disrespect to the Virgin Mary intended.

So where does that leave the many Anglicans that pray the hail Mary, and the rosary, and the very popular Anglican Shrine at Walsingham ?

Jellybaby1 · 19-03-2017 07:30PM

......... wrote: »

So where does that leave the many Anglicans that pray the hail Mary, and the rosary, and the very popular Anglican Shrine at Walsingham ?

They are most likely High Church Prods, or Catholic Anglicans. I only learned of Catholic Anglicans recently, and I still can't get my head around it. They are Anglicans who tend to lean Catholic-wise, I guess. Others here will explain it properly I'm sure.

keano_afc · 20-03-2017 09:47AM

lazybones32 wrote: »

...and the holy Spirit? Don't forget Him because He has much to say to you too.

If it's okay to marvel at God's creation; sunrise, sunset, mountains, lakes, me, etc; then it must be okay to marvel at the people He has blessed in a singular fashion.
Praising Mary for what God has done for her and through her is a scriptural notion and when Mary was praised, she returned the praise to God threefold. Certain Catholics and Prods (and whatever Tatranska is) see it as a deification of the BVM but it's not like that at all. She is a creature, like the rest of us, but has been blessed in a way no other human ever was or ever will be.

And a sinner, like the rest of us too.

There's a massive difference between praising someone for their role in God's plan and directly praying to someone who cant hear you, or do anything for you.

uck51js9zml2yt · 20-03-2017 03:00PM

lazybones32 wrote: »

...and the holy Spirit? Don't forget Him because He has much to say to you too.

If it's okay to marvel at God's creation; sunrise, sunset, mountains, lakes, me, etc; then it must be okay to marvel at the people He has blessed in a singular fashion.
Praising Mary for what God has done for her and through her is a scriptural notion and when Mary was praised, she returned the praise to God threefold. Certain Catholics and Prods (and whatever Tatranska is) see it as a deification of the BVM but it's not like that at all. She is a creature, like the rest of us, but has been blessed in a way no other human ever was or ever will be.

Thanks for the special mention

I'm what the early church was ...Christian....not otherwise designated!

LordSutch · 20-03-2017 10:53PM

......... wrote: »

So where does that leave the many Anglicans that pray the hail Mary, and the rosary, and the very popular Anglican Shrine at Walsingham ?

Yes, I should have prefaced my comments in relation to the Church of Ireland (low Church) as opposed to those Anglicans who are of the 'High Church' variety of Protestants who walk a fine line between Protestantism & Catholicism (minus the Roman prefix), for although they follow many of the same practises as the RC Church, they are not in union with the Pope/Rome, hence they are not Roman Catholics!

Virgin Mary

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