Virgin Mary

Cen taurus

It's spirtual practice for me not theory, but whatever you find funny, I'm more a live and let live person myself.

katydid

Cen taurus wrote: »

It's spirtual practice for me not theory, but whatever you find funny, I'm more a live and let live person myself.

No, I have no problem with your practice. I think it's good. I just think it's abused. I have been to funerals where there would have been more meaning in reading a shopping list.

I get the idea of the rosary, even if it's not my thing. But it has become an empty ritual in many cases.

Safehands

Cen taurus wrote: »

I've found the Rosary to be a most powerful prayer.
I for one am very glad that unlike Eve, Our Lady trusted God and and siad :
"Let it be"

I don't understand why repeating the same prayer does anything for anyone. I regard it as a spiritual placebo.

Cen taurus

I use it while meditating on the mysteries, as recomended.
About 5 years ago when life my life was at rock bottom, I happened to find my grandfathers old rosary beads, and I prayed the rosary with true sincerity for the first time in my life. From that day on my life has turned around, so I'm forever greatful for the rosary and it brings me a great sense of peace every time I pray it.

oldozer

katydid wrote: »

The theory of it is interesting. The reality is that it has just become a joke, in public worship, at least.

I like this idea of contemplation of Scripture as you say The Rosary. Not something which would be in this old mind though as The Bible would not be on my list of reading. I would like to understand it I suppose but most of what I have seen on forums as to Scripture. Most people who quote Scripture on forums I have visited seem to firmly believe in what they quote. Most who quote such are really drive by preachers as they seem to neglect they believe what it is they believe in basic one liners.

I have a different way of meditating on Those Mysteries. I wonder in The Joyful if Jesus wore shoes ? Did Joseph or Mary correct Him at mealtimes ? Did He know as He preached to His superiors as a child, did He know of His journey ? There are many questions as to all the other Mysteries of a like manner, just a matter of contemplation of the life and times of a poor family who gave away most of what They had in their journey. Their flight into Egypt had them Give away most of the gifts of The Wise Men who visited Their Nativity. I just wonder of This Family as They set out on Their journey. An ass with all Their belongings, an ass to carry a young girl and her child. A father who may well have doubted his faith.

Quite the thoughtful post really which could be regarded as funny. I often wonder as to how a silly woman and her husband could travel for Three days before remembering they forgot their only child. Much more human as I smile there rather than listening to Jo Brand tell me of her toilet humour. I do study Locutions of sorts as I have been doing for many a long year. One woman in the Americas had a bit to say on irreverence as to This Holy Mother as we perciever in modernity. Her Father is in the audience as is Her Son. I assure those who care to joke. Someone is not laughing.

A placebo or a shopping list are not things I may have though of as I try to read all the different doomers and naysayers of those times we are born to. I do wish I were able to reason a lot more. I did catch out our Doctor one time though, so I would wish discernment were such an easy target. A shopping list is really a human interpretation though as we are so used to thinking we could have so much more for that bit of extra cash. A mindset better left to serious meditation to mortality perhaps. A thought often comes to mind as I read on here. So many prophets, so many questions. We really have but one question to all the generations, all the prophets, all the questions ? We need but two of the latter to realize. If we believe in any sort of god. There will be one generation in our humanity. One of those prophets may have got it right.

Dozer.

oldozer

oldozer wrote: »

I like this idea of contemplation of Scripture as you say The Rosary. Not something which would be in this old mind though as The Bible would not be on my list of reading. I would like to understand it I suppose but most of what I have seen on forums as to Scripture. Most people who quote Scripture on forums I have visited seem to firmly believe in what they quote. Most who quote such are really drive by preachers as they seem to neglect they believe what it is they believe in basic one liners.

I have a different way of meditating on Those Mysteries. I wonder in The Joyful if Jesus wore shoes ? Did Joseph or Mary correct Him at mealtimes ? Did He know as He preached to His superiors as a child, did He know of His journey ? There are many questions as to all the other Mysteries of a like manner, just a matter of contemplation of the life and times of a poor family who gave away most of what They had in their journey. Their flight into Egypt had them Give away most of the gifts of The Wise Men who visited Their Nativity. I just wonder of This Family as They set out on Their journey. An ass with all Their belongings, an ass to carry a young girl and her child. A father who may well have doubted his faith.

Quite the thoughtful post really which could be regarded as funny. I often wonder as to how a silly woman and her husband could travel for Three days before remembering they forgot their only child. Much more human as I smile there rather than listening to Jo Brand tell me of her toilet humour. I do study Locutions of sorts as I have been doing for many a long year. One woman in the Americas had a bit to say on irreverence as to This Holy Mother as we perciever in modernity. Her Father is in the audience as is Her Son. I assure those who care to joke. Someone is not laughing.

A placebo or a shopping list are not things I may have though of as I try to read all the different doomers and naysayers of those times we are born to. I do wish I were able to reason a lot more. I did catch out our Doctor one time though, so I would wish discernment were such an easy target. A shopping list is really a human interpretation though as we are so used to thinking we could have so much more for that bit of extra cash. A mindset better left to serious meditation to mortality perhaps. A thought often comes to mind as I read on here. So many prophets, so many questions. We really have but one question to all the generations, all the prophets, all the questions ? We need but two of the latter to realize. If we believe in any sort of god. There will be one generation in our humanity. One of those prophets may have got it right.

Dozer.

Oops. Had meant to quote Katydid...............Oh well.

Dozer.

katydid

Safehands wrote: »

I don't understand why repeating the same prayer does anything for anyone. I regard it as a spiritual placebo.

It seems to work as some kind of mantra. When it's not treated like a shopping list.

oldozer

On the subject of The Virgin Mary as I have been reading some woman in The Americas. I just thought to put it out there as Fatima was mentioned here. We do have Knock here in this country of which some believe.

Would we believe this if it was said tomorrow at Knock ?

Dozer.

With secrets given to My instruments, I have been taking My Son’s People to a patient
wait, according to the proximity of the prophecies, forewarning and announcing the
suffering that My children would have to face if they did not amend their ways so they
would not ignore the instant when perversion would have control of man, and humankind
would find itself very near the fulfillment of all My Prophecies.

At this instant:

THE SOULS ARE EASILY LOST…
The Commandments are diminished …
The Sacraments are believed to be obsolete…
The Beatitudes have been forgotten…
The Holy Mass is believed to be one more ritual…
The Consecration of My Son’s Body and Soul is not considered a Miracle but a scene within
a ritual…

MY SON IS REJECTED AND I HAVE BEEN DRIVEN AWAY FROM THE HUMAN BEINGS AND FROM THE HOMES.

Each one carries with him an interior realm that tends toward good; however, as a man
separates from My Son, the choice of good or bad belongs to each one. I call you to
conversion and I am not Heard, My Son suffers when He sees conversion slip like water
through your fingers

Human unconsciousness is the obstruction that makes it difficult for man to meet God and
makes man distance himself from his Creator, which allows man to move away from the Divine
Teachings and to open himself to a misinterpreted freedom.

Human intelligence has been substituted with the indoctrination of man by man through
ignorance.
Human thinking is centered on the oppression of the weakest, and this thought is what
causes man to move away from God and to diminish the gifts of God with which The Father
endowed man.

The ability to think, the reasoning, and the intelligence of My children have been
replaced with one unique way of acting, which nullifies the voice of the conscience so man
will live as he wishes according to the worldly demands.

Safehands

oldozer wrote: »

On the subject of The Virgin Mary as I have been reading some woman in The Americas. I just thought to put it out there as Fatima was mentioned here. We do have Knock here in this country of which some believe.

Would we believe this if it was said tomorrow at Knock ?

Dozer.

With secrets given to My instruments, I have been taking My Son’s People to a patient
wait, according to the proximity of the prophecies, forewarning and announcing the
suffering that My children would have to face if they did not amend their ways so they
would not ignore the instant when perversion would have control of man, and humankind
would find itself very near the fulfillment of all My Prophecies.

At this instant:

THE SOULS ARE EASILY LOST…
The Commandments are diminished …
The Sacraments are believed to be obsolete…
The Beatitudes have been forgotten…
The Holy Mass is believed to be one more ritual…
The Consecration of My Son’s Body and Soul is not considered a Miracle but a scene within
a ritual…

MY SON IS REJECTED AND I HAVE BEEN DRIVEN AWAY FROM THE HUMAN BEINGS AND FROM THE HOMES.

Each one carries with him an interior realm that tends toward good; however, as a man
separates from My Son, the choice of good or bad belongs to each one. I call you to
conversion and I am not Heard, My Son suffers when He sees conversion slip like water
through your fingers

Human unconsciousness is the obstruction that makes it difficult for man to meet God and
makes man distance himself from his Creator, which allows man to move away from the Divine
Teachings and to open himself to a misinterpreted freedom.

Human intelligence has been substituted with the indoctrination of man by man through
ignorance.
Human thinking is centered on the oppression of the weakest, and this thought is what
causes man to move away from God and to diminish the gifts of God with which The Father
endowed man.

The ability to think, the reasoning, and the intelligence of My children have been
replaced with one unique way of acting, which nullifies the voice of the conscience so man
will live as he wishes according to the worldly demands.

I have absolutely no idea what ypu are talking about

keano_afc

Safehands wrote: »

I don't understand why repeating the same prayer does anything for anyone. I regard it as a spiritual placebo.

Indeed, scripture warns of such practices:

Matt 6:7 "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

noel farrell

what can you say to pilgrims who admit the do not read the bible, i guess the rely on tradition ,and what ma and da said , and get their dander up if you have any other opinion , truth or false .

Safehands

noel farrell wrote: »

what can you say to pilgrims who admit the do not read the bible, i guess the rely on tradition ,and what ma and da said , and get their dander up if you have any other opinion , truth or false .

It's amazing to think that all of this, all these 'beliefs', came from a story, told over 2000 years ago, about an angel, or a ghost, appearing to a girl.

Boy, talk about a story having legs!

galljga1

keano_afc wrote: »

Indeed, scripture warns of such practices:

Matt 6:7 "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

The rosary used to drive me nuts. Blah blah de blahdy blah over and over again. When my wife passed, the local priest asked when we would start the rosary. I said that there was not much point. He was a bit taken aback but respected my decision.

Safehands

galljga1 wrote: »

The rosary used to drive me nuts. Blah blah de blahdy blah over and over again. When my wife passed, the local priest asked when we would start the rosary. I said that there was not much point. He was a bit taken aback but respected my decision.

It does give some people comfort and that is very positive.

Cen taurus

keano_afc wrote: »

Indeed, scripture warns of such practices:

Matt 6:7 "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

Pity you don't read scripture more carefully before you go slandering the prayers of other Christians.

Just to give a few examples :

Daniel chapter 3, v. 57 onwards: "Bless the Lord, praise and exalt Him above all for ever" is repeated over 30 times.

Psalms 136, "God's love endures forever" is repeated over 25 times.

In Matt 20:31, Jesus grants the request of the blind men, who repeated their prayers to him for mercy.

Matthew 26:44: "And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words".

Mark 14:39 reads: "And again he went away, and prayed, and spoke the same words."

“Day and night they never cease to sing, ‘Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!’” (Rev 4.8).

The Hail Mary is formulated from scripture itself, scripture is not and never will be a vain repetition.

The first part “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you” is taken from the words of the Archangel Gabriel in Luke 1:28.

The second line “Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus” is taken from the words of Elizabeth in Luke 1:42.

The last line “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen” is also drawn from Elizabeth’s words to Our Lady when she calls Mary the “mother of my Lord” in verse 43.

If it were me, I would hesitate before trying to slander the Mother of Christ, and prayer drawn from scripture.

oldozer

Safehands wrote: »

I have absolutely no idea what ypu are talking about

Thank you for the comment anyway.

My regards, Dozer.

keano_afc

I slandered no prayers. A poster made a point about how repeating the same prayer didnt appeal to them. I agreed and used scripture to back that up.

As a Catholic, does it not bother you to sit in Mass and look around at people repeating the same stuff week in week out with obviously no meaning? I have been to Catholic funerals, as a non partaker obviously. To hear the dull monotone repetition over and over again is painful.

For you to compare that kind of mind numbing repetition with the scripture you have quoted is disingenuous. I think its pretty clear what type of prayers the verse in Matthew is referring to, and its not the prayers of Christ or the angels in heaven.

As for Mary, I think I have made my position on her clear and dont see any need to go over old ground.

Cen taurus

keano_afc wrote: »

I slandered no prayers. A poster made a point about how repeating the same prayer didnt appeal to them. I agreed and used scripture to back that up.

As a Catholic, does it not bother you to sit in Mass and look around at people repeating the same stuff week in week out with obviously no meaning? I have been to Catholic funerals, as a non partaker obviously. To hear the dull monotone repetition over and over again is painful.

For you to compare that kind of mind numbing repetition with the scripture you have quoted is disingenuous. I think its pretty clear what type of prayers the verse in Matthew is referring to, and its not the prayers of Christ or the angels in heaven.

As for Mary, I think I have made my position on her clear and dont see any need to go over old ground.

I'm more interested in praying than slandering the prayers of other Christians, it depends what you're into I suppose.

Nick Park

keano_afc wrote: »

I slandered no prayers. A poster made a point about how repeating the same prayer didnt appeal to them. I agreed and used scripture to back that up.

As a Catholic, does it not bother you to sit in Mass and look around at people repeating the same stuff week in week out with obviously no meaning? I have been to Catholic funerals, as a non partaker obviously. To hear the dull monotone repetition over and over again is painful.

For you to compare that kind of mind numbing repetition with the scripture you have quoted is disingenuous. I think its pretty clear what type of prayers the verse in Matthew is referring to, and its not the prayers of Christ or the angels in heaven.

As for Mary, I think I have made my position on her clear and dont see any need to go over old ground.

To be honest, I've been in plenty of Protestant services where 'The Lord's Prayer' was rattled off by rote so quickly that I couldn't see it as anything other than a vain repetition.

keano_afc

Cen taurus wrote: »

I'm more interested in praying than slandering the prayers of other Christians, it depends what you're into I suppose.

As I already said, I slandered no prayers. Scripture is clear about vain repetitions. I'll leave it there.

Cen taurus

keano_afc wrote: »

As I already said, I slandered no prayers. Scripture is clear about vain repetitions. I'll leave it there.

And prayers formed from scipture are not vain repetitions, and prayer is much repeated in scripture.

keano_afc

Cen taurus wrote: »

And prayers formed from scipture are not vain repetitions, and prayer is much repeated in scripture.

I think you misunderstand. Prayer is not vain. The manner in which it is uttered makes the difference.

Cen taurus

keano_afc wrote: »

I think you misunderstand. Prayer is not vain. The manner in which it is uttered makes the difference.

Well again, I would be more interested in improving the quality of my own prayer, rather than running around pontificating on other Christians attempts while in a group, we all have different abilities and levels.

keano_afc

Cen taurus wrote: »

Well again, I would be more interested in improving the quality of my own prayer,

Completely agree. My own prayer life is something that needs constant improvement.

rather than running around pontificating on other Christians attempts while in a group, we all have different abilities and levels.

I was merely pointing out the types of prayer I imagine that verse refers to.

As a matter of interest, what would your interpretation of Matthew 6:7 be?

oldozer

Safehands wrote: »

The RC church teaches that Mary and Joseph were married. However, if Mary remained a virgin throughout her life, (ever virgin) then could they have been husband and wife, given that a wedding and consummation of the marriage would have been necessary to have been considered a married couple? They were betrothed but when did they actually become man and wife? Would this fact not mean that Joseph was in no way related to Jesus and therefore Jesus was not of the house of David?

This is the original OP.

Could someone on here who would quote Scripture tell me how many times Mary is referred to in The Bible ?

Not really a smart question, but my reading of some of it would have me believe She was called Woman twice, and Mother Twice ?

Where in The Bible does it refer to consummation ?

Dozer.

santing

Cen taurus wrote: »

Pity you don't read scripture more carefully before you go slandering the prayers of other Christians.
....
The last line “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen” is also drawn from Elizabeth’s words to Our Lady when she calls Mary the “mother of my Lord” in verse 43.

Please explain how "mother of my Lord" can become "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen"

homer911

Cen taurus wrote: »

Pity you don't read scripture more carefully before you go slandering the prayers of other Christians.

Hi Cen taurus

I think there are two points being made here rather than one

1) The saying of repeated prayers in community, sometimes in front of an uninvolved audience - the Bible tells us to pray in private

2) The thoughtless repetition of prayer - often, in the minds of protestants at least, associated with catholics doing "laps of the rosary" at the fastest possible speed.

Prayer is about spending time with God, its not the repeated delivery of a telegram. If prayer doesn't come from the heart, what's the point? Conversely, if it comes from the heart then I'm sure all prayer is acceptable to God, if directed to Him.

I know nothing of your prayer life, so I'm not having a go at you. There are many protestants who would not even pray the Lord's Prayer/Our Father because they associate it with thoughtless repetition.

Cen taurus

santing wrote: »

Please explain how "mother of my Lord" can become "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen"

Anything blessed and full of grace is holy, (all nations shall call you blessed) Jesus is Lord God, and people can ask anyone to pray for them now and at the hour of their death. Pretty simple really.

homer911

oldozer wrote: »

Where in The Bible does it refer to consummation ?

Dozer.

Four men—James, Joses, Simon, and Judas—are mentioned as the brothers or siblings of Jesus

Matthew 13:55
Mark 6:3

We also have
Matthew 1:25 - Consummation
Luke 2:7 - First born (not only)
John 2:12 - Brothers
In Matthew 12:46-50; Mark 3:31-35; Luke 8:19-21 We have Mary and the brothers seeking to talk with Jesus

Its also possible that Mary had daughters, but there role in society was different at the time and they could easily not have been mentioned (but that's just guessing)

homer911

Cen taurus wrote: »

and people can ask anyone to pray for them now and at the hour of their death. Pretty simple really.

Not if they are already dead, only God can hear our prayer (and those people on earth who overhear us of course..)