The popularity and ethics of PUAs and similar communities

ancapailldorcha · 03-03-2015 05:36PM

Ok guys, let's get back on topic please. Evolutionary Psychology might well be a fascinating field but it's not within the scope of this forum.

Thanks.

Pug160 · 12-03-2015 07:08PM

In my opinion, if someone has all of the basics nailed down, everything else will usually fall into place. Once you go past the fundamentals and delve deeper into human psychology, and try to dissect everything, you run the risk of becoming overly cynical, which can lead to less enjoyment of human interactions. Whether it's genuine science, pseudo science, half truths or whatever, you have to accept that you risk following a rigid dogma and veering into a kind of unhealthy mindset, where there could be a tendency to look at people as slaves to their own biology/psychology. Ignorance is not bliss by any means, but I think it's healthy to sometimes set aside a lot of information you have accumulated and go into more of an autopilot mode - especially when you're out trying to enjoy yourself. Most of us who are here talking about this subject have things in common. Some of us have logical minds or have had difficulty with the opposite sex, while others are simply interested in how humans think and behave. I can relate to a lot of what the likes of RedJoker say, but I think people like him have gone down the path I have just mentioned, and I do fear it will have negative consequences, even if there are also positive ones too.

Once you have the social skills, confidence, passion, aesthetics and the willingness to push your own boundaries, you will almost certainly see results. Everything else is overkill and mental masturbation. Even a lot of men who have gone from zero to hero have admitted as much. Even many of the so called gurus give the obvious advice. You learn a lot by simply immersing yourself in social situations. The good advice is the simple advice. I think the Toastmasters idea, which I've heard mentioned a couple of times is a great idea, as is applying for certain types of social jobs. I'll be doing both in the very near future, and while it scares me, there is no doubt in my mind that I'll be a better person for it. It's my belief that once the confidence kicks in, everything else does too - it's automatic.

ancapailldorcha · 12-03-2015 11:28PM

Pug160 wrote: »

In my opinion, if someone has all of the basics nailed down, everything else will usually fall into place. Once you go past the fundamentals and delve deeper into human psychology, and try to dissect everything, you run the risk of becoming overly cynical, which can lead to less enjoyment of human interactions. Whether it's genuine science, pseudo science, half truths or whatever, you have to accept that you risk following a rigid dogma and veering into a kind of unhealthy mindset, where there could be a tendency to look at people as slaves to their own biology/psychology. Ignorance is not bliss by any means, but I think it's healthy to sometimes set aside a lot of information you have accumulated and go into more of an autopilot mode - especially when you're out trying to enjoy yourself. Most of us who are here talking about this subject have things in common. Some of us have logical minds or have had difficulty with the opposite sex, while others are simply interested in how humans think and behave. I can relate to a lot of what the likes of RedJoker say, but I think people like him have gone down the path I have just mentioned, and I do fear it will have negative consequences, even if there are also positive ones too.

Once you have the social skills, confidence, passion, aesthetics and the willingness to push your own boundaries, you will almost certainly see results. Everything else is overkill and mental masturbation. Even a lot of men who have gone from zero to hero have admitted as much. Even many of the so called gurus give the obvious advice. You learn a lot by simply immersing yourself in social situations. The good advice is the simple advice. I think the Toastmasters idea, which I've heard mentioned a couple of times is a great idea, as is applying for certain types of social jobs. I'll be doing both in the very near future, and while it scares me, there is no doubt in my mind that I'll be a better person for it. It's my belief that once the confidence kicks in, everything else does too - it's automatic.

The problem is gaining said social skills, especially when you fall towards the introvert end of the spectrum. I'm on something of a self-improvement kick myself at the moment. I'm trying to force one night out a month on myself, travel every so often and up my reading. There's nothing I find more stressful than chatting to strangers over and over again as it feels like I'm interviewing people.

Where these "gurus" get results IMO is when they push guys into interactions. Some of the feedback they give can be constructive regarding body language, speech mannerisms and the like. I don't doubt that some of these "bootcamps" can be beneficial, I just see it as being somewhat opportunistic in nature.

KomradeBishop · 13-03-2015 02:20AM

I'd also class myself as engaging in 'self-improvement' in that manner (due to long-term difficulties there - definitely tending towards introverted), and getting out as regular as I can at the moment - and so I can see how that side of advice would be useful (and to be honest, is something that is very much missing - where do you get proper help for social stuff like that? there is nowhere really - so there is a huge gap to be filled there, with little-to-no professional help).

The problem though is that I think there is huge opportunity for preying upon people who are vulnerable in this way, by promoting PUA stuff, and exploiting them - as well as the possibility to slant any useful advice with ideological baggage that can be harmful, such as (in extreme cases) misogynist attitudes to women, and more typically (but still quite harmfully) chockloads of generalizations about either gender, which promote very unhealthy ways of thinking in people.

The closest I've come to finding a more balanced outlet for helping people in this regard, I saw posted on another subforum recently, was Alain De Botton's 'School of Life', which is quite interesting - I know someone who is thinking of doing something that 'might' be similar (but with an unrelated focus) here - there is also the 'Book of Life', which also seems quite interesting.

Pug160 · 13-03-2015 02:22AM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The problem is gaining said social skills, especially when you fall towards the introvert end of the spectrum. I'm on something of a self-improvement kick myself at the moment. I'm trying to force one night out a month on myself, travel every so often and up my reading. There's nothing I find more stressful than chatting to strangers over and over again as it feels like I'm interviewing people.

Where these "gurus" get results IMO is when they push guys into interactions. Some of the feedback they give can be constructive regarding body language, speech mannerisms and the like. I don't doubt that some of these "bootcamps" can be beneficial, I just see it as being somewhat opportunistic in nature.

I don't doubt that they can be beneficial either. But I do think there are healthier ways of building up your confidence and improving your social skills. Do I think approaching random women is a good idea? Yeah I think it can be. But I also think many men get burned because they dive right into the chatting to random women part of it, without building their lives (or a part of their lives) around general social interaction first. For a person who has very little experience socially, or has a fragile mindset, I don't recommend the bootcamp method. I think you absolutely have to challenge yourself. But I think it's much better for certain people to do it in a more well rounded, gradual way. The benefits of doing it that way are obvious: you're dealing with all sorts of people in many different environments, and you're not stuck with some (potentially) myopic view of the world (which does happen, especially to people who don't actually interact with other people very often). If you take an isolated guy, and tell him to constantly approach strangers in bars, clubs and cold approach people during the day, it could very well help him come out of his shell. But as I sad, it can also blow up in the guy's face and give him a warped view of the world - and of women especially.

I sometimes get the impression that a few of you guys think I'm being patronising or contrary, which is certainly not the case as I've been trying to overcome a lot of my own, similar problems. All I'm saying is, is that there are men out there who are at various stages of development. I just don't think the bootcamp method is advisable for everyone. I think it could actually be quite dangerous if the wrong person were to go on one and not get the desired success after it. It could actually make them worse. We have seen examples of such men online.

Would you not consider something like Toastmasters yourself? Or doing a little bit of voluntary work where you'd have to talk to lots of strangers? Make no mistake about it, I'll be bricking it. But I think I'm doing the right thing.

ancapailldorcha · 13-03-2015 09:13AM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

I'd also class myself as engaging in 'self-improvement' in that manner (due to long-term difficulties there - definitely tending towards introverted), and getting out as regular as I can at the moment - and so I can see how that side of advice would be useful (and to be honest, is something that is very much missing - where do you get proper help for social stuff like that? there is nowhere really - so there is a huge gap to be filled there, with little-to-no professional help).

The problem though is that I think there is huge opportunity for preying upon people who are vulnerable in this way, by promoting PUA stuff, and exploiting them - as well as the possibility to slant any useful advice with ideological baggage that can be harmful, such as (in extreme cases) misogynist attitudes to women, and more typically (but still quite harmfully) chockloads of generalizations about either gender, which promote very unhealthy ways of thinking in people.

That's the thing. There are loads of simple ways to improve yourself physically and mentally such as travelling, reading, weightlifting, etc... As I said before, there's not too many things I find more stressful that chucking myself at strangers in a pub and asking them what they do, where they're from and other pointless nonsense when I could be at home reading, gaming or watching a film.

Pug160 wrote: »

I sometimes get the impression that a few of you guys think I'm being patronising or contrary, which is certainly not the case as I've been trying to overcome a lot of my own, similar problems. All I'm saying is, is that there are men out there who are at various stages of development. I just don't think the bootcamp method is advisable for everyone. I think it could actually be quite dangerous if the wrong person were to go on one and not get the desired success after it. It could actually make them worse. We have seen examples of such men online.

I don't think you're being patronising or contrary at all. The whole point of this forum is to put dissenting opinions together.

Back on point, the issue I have, at least personally is if I were to approach someone in a club, coffee shop or wherever and get the knockback then it hits my self esteem. I'm sure the counsel of a PUA would be that one has to develop a thick skin and move on to the next one as it were. In 2014, I approached one person who looked at me and didn't even speak to me which didn't constitute a pleasant experience.

Pug160 · 13-03-2015 04:51PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's the thing. There are loads of simple ways to improve yourself physically and mentally such as travelling, reading, weightlifting, etc... As I said before, there's not too many things I find more stressful that chucking myself at strangers in a pub and asking them what they do, where they're from and other pointless nonsense when I could be at home reading, gaming or watching a film.

I don't think you're being patronising or contrary at all. The whole point of this forum is to put dissenting opinions together.

Back on point, the issue I have, at least personally is if I were to approach someone in a club, coffee shop or wherever and get the knockback then it hits my self esteem. I'm sure the counsel of a PUA would be that one has to develop a thick skin and move on to the next one as it were. In 2014, I approached one person who looked at me and didn't even speak to me which didn't constitute a pleasant experience.

Interacting in general helps - it's what helped me. I remember starting a new job where lots of people worked, and felt I had to at least put some sort of effort in by saying hello when I was walking past them. You sometimes encounter people who force themselves on you and start telling you their life story and all sorts. A lot of people hate that but it did me a favour, as it gave me no choice - I had to respond. I think developing a thick skin comes from the realisation that none of it is personal, and that people can behave differently depending on the situation and context. For me, working alongside women reminded me that many of them are just normal, down-to-earth people - even some of the pretty ones. I still don't have a thick skin by any means but I think I'm more rational about certain situations now.

These discussions can be difficult because none of us know each other enough to really give any more than just general advice based on our own experiences. I have in the past considered CBT, as I know it has some scientific backing and I know it has genuinely changed people's lives. But in my case I think I just needed to challenge myself and live a more varied life. I'm not absolutely certain though. Anyone who claims to have all the answers to anything is either a fool, charlatan or madman. My only advice is start of interacting with people who you know won't be rude back, or people who are less likely to become flustered. You probably know that of course - the only problem is getting started.

RedJoker · 16-03-2015 04:03PM

Good points guys, if your issue is purely social anxiety then that's a specific issue. It's usually a manifestation of shame, on some deep level you don't feel like you deserve attention from others. Toastmasters or taking a social job are great steps for fixing this. If you're feeling particularly brave then an open mic at a comedy or poetry night would help. You could take an improv or acting course that involved a show at the end.

Game will help with this as well but it also helps with sexual shame. That's a very different thing to social shame and if you don't have sexual shame then clearing up the social shame should take care of most of your issues. For me it took a month of constant practice before I felt comfortable even looking at women on the street, there was some pretty severe sexual shame I'd picked up. Somebody mentioned wanting to just have a conversation with girls to see if you hit it off, that would be a manifestation of sexual shame, on some level you're uncomfortable with your natural desires. The social anxiety methods won't be much help here. You need to get comfortable expressing your desires, one way to do this is to approach say 3 girls you think are beautiful per day for a month or two and tell them you thought they were beautiful. As you get comfortable you can attempt to continue the conversation. It doesn't have to be about getting a number, it can purely be about working through your sexual shame. I think there's a support group for people with social anxiety who get them to start conversations with strangers in the street to help with this. Same method but with a different purpose.

There are other manifestations of shame and anxiety related to honesty, work, etc. animusempire.com would probably be one of the best manosphere blogs on this topic and doesn't have the same toxic beliefs and angst that the other blogs have, which I agree is a big risk. I'd recommend therationalmale.com if you want to understand why these sexual beliefs develop in modern society and the buffers/limiting beliefs that commonly develop, just being aware is a big part of the battle. Be aware that generalisations are probabilistic, not deterministic. Plateaus and dips are a natural part of the process, it can be frustrating but take it one step at a time, it's a marathon not a race.

The popularity and ethics of PUAs and similar communities

Comments