Dublin Bus - can anyone be happy with the price and service?

cdebru · 12-03-2015 08:51PM

VG31 wrote: »

cdebru,

Fair enough but a lot of the time I find drivers don't bring the front door near the kerb either even though they could if they wanted. So not all drivers must be that safety conscious. I've seen drivers numerous times open the centre doors in the middle of the road away from the kerb.

Drivers in the rest of Europe don't seem to care if they can't get the centre door close to the kerb.

It depends on the street and the circumstances and the road markings as to what, or where you should stop if the stop is inacessible.
As for you seen this or that, I have seen loads of people doing all kinds of things in various occupations including a guy who was an electrician cutting a live wire with a pliers, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone else as a sensible or safe thing to do.

As for the rest of Europe we don't live in the rest of Europe , and they do not have our court system or compensation culture, I doubt very much you could find another country in Europe that would award someone €9.5 million when they ran out in front of a bus that was 20% below the maximum speed limit for that road. So apples and oranges and all that.

cdebru · 12-03-2015 08:54PM

VG31 wrote: »

I didn't say only Eastern Europe. I know the bus stops are better in London and Germany but if the driver can't fit into a stop properly there due to parked cars or whatever, they still open the centre doors.

How much do you think you would get in court if you brought a claim because a bicycle or motorbike hit you while exiting ? Or would they just laugh at you for thinking you should be compensated?

ITV2 · 12-03-2015 09:49PM

VG31 wrote: »

if the driver can't fit into a stop properly there due to parked cars or whatever, they still open the centre doors.

I certainly don't !

devnull · 12-03-2015 10:05PM

end of the road wrote: »

thats up to them. we should not do the same here. the stops should be audited to ensure they are fully safe for multiple door operation. parked cars should not be allowed in a bus stop

So I suppose that you are also going to demand that Connolly Platform 5 be closed?

Since on Platform 5 heaading south right at the front of the train, there is a far bigger gap and any drop than there will be from any centre door on a bus.

end of the road · 12-03-2015 10:14PM

devnull wrote: »

So I suppose that you are also going to demand that Tara Street Platform 5 be closed?

Since on Platform 5 heaading south right at the front of the train, there is a far bigger gap and any drop than there will be from any centre door on a bus.

tara street has 2 platforms. the NTA clearly agree with dublin bus in relation to use of centre doors hence it isn't wide spread. comparing a train to a bus is ridiculous. why would one be in front of the train anyway, your supposed to stand behind the yellow line

devnull · 12-03-2015 10:15PM

end of the road wrote: »

tara street has 2 platforms. the NTA clearly agree with dublin bus in relation to use of centre doors hence it isn't wide spread. comparing a train to a bus is ridiculous. why would one be in front of the train anyway, your supposed to stand behind the yellow line

I mean Connolly and the gap between the train and the platform.

Mahogany · 12-03-2015 11:11PM

cdebru wrote: »

Yeah in response to you complaining about drivers insisting passengers pay their correct fare, if you had your way everyone would pay what they felt like and presumably the magic money tree would pay the actual cost of providing the service.
Providing the best service also means trying to ensure that everyone pays what they are supposed to otherwise those willing to pay end up paying more to cover the cost for those unwilling to pay.

People have issues paying the correct fare because the fares are so high!

end of the road · 12-03-2015 11:15PM

Mahogany wrote: »

People have issues paying the correct fare because the fares are so high!

get a leap card

cdebru · 12-03-2015 11:16PM

Mahogany wrote: »

People have issues paying the correct fare because the fares are so high!

The fares are so high because people don't pay their fair share, it doesn't matter what rate the fares are people will try to avoid paying them that just pushes up the fares for the decent honest customers who pay their way.

magentis · 12-03-2015 11:18PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I live in near Donnybrook and I go into Dublin (around 15 mins by bus) once a week. I'm sometimes waiting up to half an hour for a bus that charges me 2.80 for the pleasure of a 15 minute journey. Now I know people will say Leap card is cheaper blah blah but still the fact remains is that Dublin Bus offers and appalling service. I live on the main road into the country's capital and it's a struggle getting in and out of town for a return journey costing me over 5 euro!!

We also subsidise Dublin bus in taxes. We're paying too much for a rubbish service.

Edit: I also forgot some of the rudest bus drivers going who act like they're doing you a favour instead of providing a service.

Fair play.
If the current government get their way,you might have no service at all.
Its at the point where all they are short is to invite the big players in and ask them which routes they would like.

woodrow wyatt · 12-03-2015 11:30PM

With the route tendering what would happen if no one applied for these routes including Dublin Bus, would the government force Dublin Bus to operate the routes even if they did not want to?

devnull · 12-03-2015 11:47PM

magentis wrote: »

Fair play.
If the current government get their way,you might have no service at all.
Its at the point where all they are short is to invite the big players in and ask them which routes they would like.

No it's not like that at all, since the operators will have no control over the service level or the timetable.

magentis · 13-03-2015 12:15AM

devnull wrote: »

No it's not like that at all, since the operators will have no control over the service level or the timetable.

Have you seen what has happened in the uk?
With the rail and the bus services?

Of course its like that.

Multinational operators came in and cherry picked the routes that were profitable.Often taking bundles of routes with profitable and loss making routes,they operate the loss making routes for a while then discontinue them.The uk government didnt stop them,are you telling me this government of ours will?
All in all a nice easy way out for enda,and his cronies,shure he can give the cash saved to his pals in the form of some makey up advisor role.

cdebru · 13-03-2015 12:32AM

devnull wrote: »

I mean Connolly and the gap between the train and the platform.

Again apples and oranges IE could hardly accuse a train driver of not pulling in close enough, nor is a motorbike or cyclist likely to come up the gap between train and platform.

devnull · 13-03-2015 09:38AM

magentis wrote: »

Have you seen what has happened in the uk?
With the rail and the bus services?

Multinational operators came in and cherry picked the routes that were profitable.Often taking bundles of routes with profitable and loss making routes,they operate the loss making routes for a while then discontinue them.The uk government didnt stop them,are you telling me this government of ours will?

What happened in the UK on the bus service outside London was de-regulation where it became a free for all and operators could do pretty much what they like as you say. For most of the UK this has not been a positive development in regards to bus services however some urban areas have seen better services, but I agree that rural areas and those in villages etc have seen worse services.

That is not being proposed for this country. What is being proposed is that the regulator will specify the timetables, fares and similar aspects. The operator will have no control over this and will have to do what they are told, and will be the operator, and nothing more. The idea behind tendering is to ensure that no operator, be they public or private, can use their position against the greater good.

Therefore none of the situations you talk about can happen.

cdebru wrote: »

Again apples and oranges IE could hardly accuse a train driver of not pulling in close enough, nor is a motorbike or cyclist likely to come up the gap between train and platform.

Of course, since it is completely outside the control of an IE driver, but the fact is, there still is a rather large gap, that nobody can do anything about that passengers must overcome on some doors, on some platforms of some Irish Rail trains. However in this situation all the doors open, despite the fact that some would be more dangerous than others.

I notice you do not use the word safety anywhere in your reply, despite the fact this is said to be the primary concern. The fact is that safety, not just in Ireland, is often used as a smokescreen for the real issues. That the drivers do not want to get held responsible for any possible accidents. If there is a situation where they would not be held liable, it seems they would be more open to use the middle doors, that they claimed were unsafe.

If safety was so important, then surely staff would be worried about the safety of passengers, regardless of whether they could be held liable or not?

cdebru · 13-03-2015 10:11AM

devnull wrote: »

What happened in the UK on the bus service outside London was de-regulation where it became a free for all and operators could do pretty much what they like as you say. For most of the UK this has not been a positive development in regards to bus services however some urban areas have seen better services, but I agree that rural areas and those in villages etc have seen worse services.

That is not being proposed for this country. What is being proposed is that the regulator will specify the timetables, fares and similar aspects. The operator will have no control over this and will have to do what they are told, and will be the operator, and nothing more. The idea behind tendering is to ensure that no operator, be they public or private, can use their position against the greater good.

Therefore none of the situations you talk about can happen.

Of course, since it is completely outside the control of an IE driver, but the fact is, there still is a rather large gap, that nobody can do anything about that passengers must overcome on some doors, on some platforms of some Irish Rail trains. However in this situation all the doors open, despite the fact that some would be more dangerous than others.

I notice you do not use the word safety anywhere in your reply, despite the fact this is said to be the primary concern. The fact is that safety, not just in Ireland, is often used as a smokescreen for the real issues. That the drivers do not want to get held responsible for any possible accidents. If there is a situation where they would not be held liable, it seems they would be more open to use the middle doors, that they claimed were unsafe.

If safety was so important, then surely staff would be worried about the safety of passengers, regardless of whether they could be held liable or not?

Of course it is about being held responsible, in the IE case it is impossible to hold staff responsible as the gap between train and platform is completely outside of the employees control. That is not the case in DB, management put the responsibility on drivers. I'll give you a recent example a driver approached a stop it was inacessible, so he pulled up to the footpath after the stop allowed passengers to alight directly on to the footpath, having left the bus one passenger tripped on the footpath, not getting off the bus but on the footpath on few feet from the bus a manager found the driver responsible for the incident on the basis that it was up to the driver to find a safe place if the stop wasn't accessible and since this person had fallen this clearly wasn't a safe place as such the driver had broken the rules. That's the kind of nonsense you are dealing with. It was thrown out on appeal but who needs that stress?

strandroad · 13-03-2015 10:50AM

cdebru wrote: »

Of course it is about being held responsible, in the IE case it is impossible to hold staff responsible as the gap between train and platform is completely outside of the employees control. That is not the case in DB, management put the responsibility on drivers. I'll give you a recent example a driver approached a stop it was inacessible, so he pulled up to the footpath after the stop allowed passengers to alight directly on to the footpath, having left the bus one passenger tripped on the footpath, not getting off the bus but on the footpath on few feet from the bus a manager found the driver responsible for the incident on the basis that it was up to the driver to find a safe place if the stop wasn't accessible and since this person had fallen this clearly wasn't a safe place as such the driver had broken the rules. That's the kind of nonsense you are dealing with. It was thrown out on appeal but who needs that stress?

Wondering if such nonsense would still be in place if the route was tendered out to someone else than DB.

Dyr · 13-03-2015 11:31AM

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

Got on the 15 to town today. Went upstairs and sat down amidst about 12 Italian students. In Rathgar they all stood up and proceeded to stand the whole way down the stairs, with about 3 left on the top deck. And the bus stops, but they don't get off. And again. And the whole stairs is blocked. Next I hear a voice going "if you're not getting off then sit back down because no one else can get on or off. There are people out there in the rain who want to get on this bus".

So all 12 traipse back upstairs. Only they don't all sit down. And the next minutes the bus driver on on the tannoy going "you can't stand upstairs on the bus. I appreciate there is a language barrier but you need to either sit down or come downstairs". So the man beside me asks where they were going. Portobello, it turns out. They are were standing up in Rathgar to get off the bus in Portobello! On a rainy morning that is a 20 minute journey!

So we eventually reach Portobello and the bus driver is back on going "On behalf of Dublin Bus I would like to welcome our new Italian visitors to Dublin. We hope you enjoy yourselves as you learn to get around our city". And everybody smiled.

Anyway I thought it was quite well handled considering what a pain they were being!!

Actually this highlights a problem which dublin bus, by and large, are not wholly to blame for. Large groups who think public transport is private hire. I personally think they shouldn't be entertained but I'm probably in the minority on that

strandroad · 13-03-2015 01:38PM

Bambi wrote: »

Actually this highlights a problem which dublin bus, by and large, are not wholly to blame for. Large groups who think public transport is private hire. I personally think they shouldn't be entertained but I'm probably in the minority on that

Or... their problem would never arise if a a route display was ticking off named stops as you pass them... as they do it in that mythical land of continental Europe.

NCD · 13-03-2015 01:58PM

[I no longer have any problems with Dublin Bus from Lusk as I now use the Private coach from Lusk at 7.30 every morning on which I am guaranteed a seat and can commute in comfort, It is really great to see some competition I hope this private service continues as they treat people as valued customers rather than as Cattle.

bk · 13-03-2015 01:58PM

Bambi wrote: »

Actually this highlights a problem which dublin bus, by and large, are not wholly to blame for. Large groups who think public transport is private hire. I personally think they shouldn't be entertained but I'm probably in the minority on that

Actually the big groups of foreign students seem to be relatively little trouble. They normally use a flat fare leap card, so they board the bus very quickly, far quicker then your average Irish passenger.

I remember the first time I saw this I was on a bus and I noticed about 20 Spanish students at the upcoming bus stop and I groaned thinking it would take all day for them to board. But I was very pleasantly surprised as I watched them all board in less then 30 seconds as they all used Leap card quickly against the right hand validator.

In fact it was the three, seemingly, Irish passengers who were paying by cash or leap with driver interaction who took almost twice as long to board as the 20 students!

Which just goes to show the benefits Dublin Bus could gain in reduced dwell times and reduced journey times by moving to flat fare.

As for the students in this example standing on the stairs too early, I wonder did this bus have the next bus stop notification screens? Most DB buses don't and even the ones that do, have a pretty poor implementation of it.

It is another example of DB operating to what Dublin required 30 years ago rather then what it needs today!

30 years ago, most people who took DB were Dubliners and most of them took the same journey every day, so no need for screens. The odd tourist could simply ask the friendly driver to give them a shout when they should get off.

But modern Dublin is radically different, we now have very large numbers of tourists and massive influx of foreigners working and studying here. These people now make up a very large percentage of Dublin Bus users and they simply don't know the network, which leads to difficulties like this.

This is why you have to have screens on the bus, to help people like this to know when to get off.

Unfortunately these screens are only on a very small percentage of DB's fleet. Also NTA/DB's implementation of these screens is very poor. The screens only show the next upcoming stop and it only shows it for a very brief period as it needs to also show the name in Irish, which of course almost no one, including most Irish people actually understand!

With DB's bus stops being so close together, this leads to a situation where you only see the name of the stop when you are almost on top of it, have to then rush down the stairs, squeeze by the people standing downstairs and out the single door and maybe even miss your stop. Because of this, you get this problem where people stand up too early, wait for their stop, but then block other people boarding on a stop before it.

This is why you have to carefully think about how you design and layout a bus, so that you encourage people to use it properly and as efficiently as possible. Unfortunately DB has proven itself completely incompetent at doing this, with little thought going into their bus design beyond sticking as many seats as possible in it and as slowly as possible squeezing as many people as possible through a single door and stairs!

Ideally all DB buses should have next stop screens and ideally they should be like the ones on buses in Amsterdam. The next stop screens in Amsterdam are actually full LCD screens, that show the next 4 stops. They supply you with far more info then Dublin Buses poor screens and allow you to prepare better for the next upcoming stop. By also showing the next four stops, they also give you more time to switch between English and Irish.

Beyond that, it would be great if we saw DB move to 3 door, dual stairs buses like the new London Bus or double decker buses in Berlin.

The idea being to maximise passenger flow and efficiency. You board via the front door, straight up the front stairs, sit upstairs, and then exit via the rear stairs and straight out the rear door. A very efficient passenger flow that stops embarking and disembarking passengers from mixing and blocking each other.

bk · 13-03-2015 02:31PM

Here are some images of these awesome Berlin, triple door, dual stairs buses I'm talking about:

Note how the front stairs is directly behind the driver and naturally leads and encourages you to go up the front stairs, after you have stepped in the front door and paid your fare.

The rear stairs leads directly down and out the rear door, so again people are encouraged to exit via the rear door.

Also note that the center door is specifically marked for wheelchair and buggy users. This door leads directly to a large wheelchair/buggy/standing area. This is vastly easier to access then DB's design and thus reduces the delay that such users might cause.

View of upstairs, where you can see both the front and rear stairs.

If only we could have such awesome buses here. In-conjunction with flat fare zero driver interaction, we would see massive reductions in journey times with such buses.

end of the road · 13-03-2015 03:30PM

mhge wrote: »

Wondering if such nonsense would still be in place if the route was tendered out to someone else than DB.

why wouldn't it be. you think tendering is going to stop idiot managers from making idiot decisians in terms of staff? your deluded if you do. the NTA won't have control over that

end of the road · 13-03-2015 03:33PM

NCD wrote: »

[I no longer have any problems with Dublin Bus from Lusk as I now use the Private coach from Lusk at 7.30 every morning on which I am guaranteed a seat and can commute in comfort, It is really great to see some competition I hope this private service continues as they treat people as valued customers rather than as Cattle.

a coach service is way different to a city bus service. coaches aren't designed for standing therefore you won't have huge crowds of people.

end of the road · 13-03-2015 03:44PM

bk wrote: »

Which just goes to show the benefits Dublin Bus could gain in reduced dwell times and reduced journey times by moving to flat fare.

its not their decisian. never was, never will be.

bk wrote: »

As for the students in this example standing on the stairs too early, I wonder did this bus have the next bus stop notification screens? Most DB buses don't and even the ones that do, have a pretty poor implementation of it.

maybe they didn't speak or understand english? just a thought.

bk wrote: »

It is another example of DB operating to what Dublin required 30 years ago rather then what it needs today!

yeah. dublin bus is a far cry from 30 years ago.

bk wrote: »

30 years ago, most people who took DB were Dubliners and most of them took the same journey every day, so no need for screens. The odd tourist could simply ask the friendly driver to give them a shout when they should get off.

still mostly the same

bk wrote: »

But modern Dublin is radically different, we now have very large numbers of tourists and massive influx of foreigners working and studying here. These people now make up a very large percentage of Dublin Bus users and they simply don't know the network, which leads to difficulties like this.

and they mostly use certain routes

bk wrote: »

Unfortunately DB has proven itself completely incompetent at doing this, with little thought going into their bus design beyond sticking as many seats as possible in it and as slowly as possible squeezing as many people as possible through a single door and stairs!

dublin bus, or the NTA and earlier the department of transport? multi-door busses are here and more will come. however clearly there is an issue as to their use and the NTA seem to slightly recognize it hence there is no great force against dublin bus to use the second door yet.

bk wrote: »

Beyond that, it would be great if we saw DB move to 3 door, dual stairs buses like the new London Bus or double decker buses in Berlin.

and what routes would support tripple doors bar the airport?

cdebru · 13-03-2015 04:19PM

bk wrote: »

Here are some images of these awesome Berlin, triple door, dual stairs buses I'm talking about:

Note how the front stairs is directly behind the driver and naturally leads and encourages you to go up the front stairs, after you have stepped in the front door and paid your fare.

The rear stairs leads directly down and out the rear door, so again people are encouraged to exit via the rear door.

Also note that the center door is specifically marked for wheelchair and buggy users. This door leads directly to a large wheelchair/buggy/standing area. This is vastly easier to access then DB's design and thus reduces the delay that such users might cause.

View of upstairs, where you can see both the front and rear stairs.

If only we could have such awesome buses here. In-conjunction with flat fare zero driver interaction, we would see massive reductions in journey times with such buses.

That's the kind of bus they should use for BRT rather than bendi buses and spending millions on resurfacing the road to get a super flat surface to support bendi buses.

It would be pointless buying these for normal routes unless the stop infrastructure was their to support them and the NTA history is piss poor in that regard.

Geuze · 13-03-2015 04:39PM

mhge wrote: »

Or... their problem would never arise if a a route display was ticking off named stops as you pass them... as they do it in that mythical land of continental Europe.

YES.

Every bus stop should have timetables and map with EVERY subsequent stop on every route named.

And on board every vehicle there should be a screen showing name of next stop.

strandroad · 13-03-2015 06:17PM

Geuze wrote: »

YES.

Every bus stop should have timetables and map with EVERY subsequent stop on every route named.

And on board every vehicle there should be a screen showing name of next stop.

Some buses do have displays, but they are only showing what your next stop is.
Elsewhere displays often show a string of stops with names, and fade them as the bus passes them. You can easily see a dozen stops in advance.
The former would not solve the Italian students scenario (they still wouldn't know if they need to prepare to alight or not), but the latter would...

punisher5112 · 13-03-2015 06:46PM

The Irish roads are not designed or big enough to take buses such as the tri axle.
The bendy bus was a disaster and don't see the new types been any better.

Bus stops are impossible to get into as for parking of taxi, vans, cars, trucks and other buses/coaches.

Having bus stops which curve in as what we have hear are dangerous and extremely difficult to actually get the bus in line with the curb especially a problem if it is dual door bus.

Not everything is db's fault as I said before customer/passenger education of how to actually get about safley and give a little respect to others around them is something that should be taught.
It's quite simple if you are in a vehicle that will move is moving that you actually hold on when standing but a lot seem to think that they will be ok not holding on and next minute they are falling about the place or hitting into others or banging off handrails.

Recently I have found more then ever stepping off the bus and crossing the road right in front of the bus and not even looking which is absolutely idiotic.

1 route at a time should be looked at and stops should be looked at how they can be improved.

The buses which have been bought GT/SG do not work with the raised castle style curbing stops as the fronts are lower and hit these curbs hard and do scare drive and pedestrians around the bus with the loud bang and grinding sound.

I find the GT front dipped beam lights are way too low on the bus and are not great for illuminating the road in front.

Interior panels are quite squeeky and also ceiling panels are easily damaged which have come across plenty with fist holes.

The stairs are positioned so badly nobody goes to the centre doors unless they see the person in front go that way and also the stair case is way too narrow and I find people to be slower to get down then ever in my experience of using them.

The wipers are to small on driver side and could clear more of the windscreen to give a better vision.

bk · 13-03-2015 07:21PM

end of the road wrote: »

maybe they didn't speak or understand english? just a thought.

Yes, exactly, which is why every single bus should have next stop displays and why those next stop displays should be large LCD screens that show the next few upcoming stops.

So non native speakers can match the names on the screen to the address they have written down.

I know ever bus now has next stop audio announcements, but that is really only useful to strong English speakers, specially on a noisy bus. If you have travelled on public transport in other foreign countries, you will know it is very hard to match what you think the stop name is versus how it is actually pronounced in Polish, German, etc. That is why next stop screens are so important and why better ones that show the next few stops to give you time to check are so necessary. The DB screens, with a single scrolling line that quickly flicks between English and Irish can be difficult to read even for native English speakers. It is a bad implementation.

end of the road wrote: »

and what routes would support tripple doors bar the airport?

Every single route.

And why not? Every city bus in Krakow, Warsaw and Gdansk has at least three doors, even their single deck buses do (similar size to the old DB single deckers on the 123 route). Their bendi buses have four doors. And it all leads to incredibly quick dwell times and vastly faster journey times then Dublin Bus.

The Berlin bus that I showed earlier, is a large, high capacity, tri-axle, so obviously it wouldn't be used on every route, instead it would replace the DB VT class tri-axles on othe routes they are currently suited too like the 46A.

However every other route could use a small version of this bus, also with three doors and two stairs, like the new routemaster in London, which is about the same size as DB's standard dual axle buses.

cdebru wrote: »

That's the kind of bus they should use for BRT rather than bendi buses and spending millions on resurfacing the road to get a super flat surface to support bendi buses.

Well if they can get the road and stop infrastructure right, then 4 door bendi buses that operate like the Luas (off bus ticketing and enter and leave via any door) will have greater capacity and faster dwell times due to the lack of stairs.

Also better accessibility for elderly, disabled, etc.

But I do think buses like this should be used on other DB routes.

cdebru wrote: »

It would be pointless buying these for normal routes unless the stop infrastructure was their to support them and the NTA history is piss poor in that regard.

You mean DB has a piss poor history of bus stop design. Almost every single bus stop in Dublin was built by Dublin Bus, long before the NTA came into existence!

Dublin Bus - can anyone be happy with the price and service?

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