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Sinn Féin received €12million in donations from US

1246

Comments

  • #92
    Good loser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,276 ✭✭✭Good loser


    When SF get in power after the next election what will they do about those in arrears for LPT and Water Charges? As they are going to abolish both. They will then have to cost this payback in their 'costed budgets' (so called).

    Surely the fairest thing would be to give back to those that paid what they have paid in? I mean fair to the law abiding. Otherwise the law breakers would be advantaged.

    Also when they abolish Water Charges will they do so for all citizens? Will it be free water for all householders?


  • #93
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,621 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Godge wrote: »
    Of course it wasn't a serious question. I was pointing out the usefulness of partition to SF on this occasion and how much their defenders on here welcome that partition when it comes to explaining their fundraising abroad.
    im not defending them Im trying to be precise in what were talkinag about so we can see where the problem is and I don't make the laws in either country, SF only make them in one, in the country we're not in, occasionally people hear about SF getting foreign donations and think they are talking about Ireland when its NI


  • #94
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Good loser wrote: »
    When SF get in power after the next election what will they do about those in arrears for LPT and Water Charges? As they are going to abolish both. They will then have to cost this payback in their 'costed budgets' (so called).

    Surely the fairest thing would be to give back to those that paid what they have paid in? I mean fair to the law abiding. Otherwise the law breakers would be advantaged.

    What laws are broken by not paying a utility bill?


  • #95
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,621 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    was looking to see what donations have been delcared in the North

    2012
    the Electoral Commission office in Belfast said last week that it cannot, under law, disclose any details of donors to political parties, including Sinn Fein.
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/loophole-allows-sf-to-keep-1m-us-donors-secret-26848042.html

    the donations website is hard to use https://pefonline.electoralcommission.org.uk/search/searchintro.aspx not finding Sinn Fein, because its not there?

    ah it changed in 2014
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/political-funding-rules-seem-strict-but-parties-raise-millions-of-euro-under-the-radar-1.2128216
    Generally in the UK, any donation with a value above £7,500 must be declared.

    However, an exception was made for Northern Ireland in 2007 when the requirement to disclose the identity of donors was relaxed. The reason was that such donors, once identified, might be the subject of intimidation and threat. It meant there was no transparency about political donations in the jurisdiction.

    A change in the law in 2014 has reintroduced the rule where those making donations above £7,500 in a single year must be identified.

    Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2014
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2014/13/section/1/enacted

    when will we see NI donations declarations

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/political-parties-campaigning-and-donations/donations-and-loans-to-political-parties

    they may go back in time and publish amounts and not identities, that be useful for seeing if amounts change under new rules http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/164859/NI-donations-loans-factsheet.pdf


  • #96
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    expectationlost wrote: »
    im not defending them and I don't make the laws in either country, there jsut occasionaly people here about SF getting money and think they are talking about Ireland and not NI

    As an all-Ireland political party they're well within their rights to claim expenses and to fundraise according to the laws of both jurisdictions.

    The partitionists on here don't understand that.


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  • #97
    joe912
    Closed Accounts Posts: 267 ✭✭joe912


    It seems that the other parties are jealous of sinn feins inward investment


  • #98
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    What laws are broken by not paying a utility bill?


    Water Services Acts.


  • #99
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    As an all-Ireland political party they're well within their rights to claim expenses and to fundraise according to the laws of both jurisdictions.

    The partitionists on here don't understand that.


    Yes, partition comes in handy for them.

    If one way of fundraising isn't possible in one jurisdiction, then just attribute it to the other jurisdiction and vice versa.

    Am I the only one worried about the potential for the malign influence on domestic politics of foreign donors? If we allow it for SF, why can't we allow rich American anti-abortion groups to fund referenda campaigns against abortion?

    Some people on here are so desperate to protect their own party SF from all criticism that they don't see the bigger picture.


  • #100
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,621 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Godge wrote: »
    Yes, partition comes in handy for them.

    If one way of fundraising isn't possible in one jurisdiction, then just attribute it to the other jurisdiction and vice versa.

    Am I the only one worried about the potential for the malign influence on domestic politics of foreign donors? If we allow it for SF, why can't we allow rich American anti-abortion groups to fund referenda campaigns against abortion?

    Some people on here are so desperate to protect their own party SF from all criticism that they don't see the bigger picture.

    foreign donations to political parties are banned here, its not allowed.


  • #101
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Godge wrote: »
    Water Services Acts.

    What's the sanction for breaking this so called law?


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  • #102
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Godge wrote: »
    Yes, partition comes in handy for them.

    If one way of fundraising isn't possible in one jurisdiction, then just attribute it to the other jurisdiction and vice versa.

    Am I the only one worried about the potential for the malign influence on domestic politics of foreign donors? If we allow it for SF, why can't we allow rich American anti-abortion groups to fund referenda campaigns against abortion?

    Some people on here are so desperate to protect their own party SF from all criticism that they don't see the bigger picture.

    Yet you've no problem with foreign companies who dictate and control our governments domestic policy.
    Big pharma can rip the Irish off as much as they like, don't upset them or they might leave eh?
    Don't upset Apple inc and the rest of them who have us known throughout the world as a tax haven.

    <snip>


  • #103
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Lee Majors, this isnt the cafe so please debate the issue without getting into swipes against other posters or questioning their motives.


  • #104
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    Yet you've no problem with foreign companies who dictate and control our governments domestic policy.
    Big pharma can rip the Irish off as much as they like, don't upset them or they might leave eh?
    Don't upset Apple inc and the rest of them who have us known throughout the world as a tax haven.

    <snip>


    I never said anything like the above, I don't know where you got that from. Perhaps you can link to posts where I have suggested that, full posts please so that context is given. Otherwise it is a meaningless false accusation.

    I just don't like the idea of foreign money in anyway influencing domestic politics.

    Before expectationlost reminds me again, I know such funding is banned here in Ireland but not in the UK, but Sinn Fein have found a way around the rules by directing the money to the North meaning it gets lost in the mix and if they can do that, so can the All-Ireland Anti-abortion Alliance (who wants to take the name and copy SF funding arrangements?) and so will others find ways and loopholes.

    It is not good for democracy when foreign money is involved. And that applies to Friends of Fine Gael or Galway tent FF but by far the biggest offender is SF.


  • #105
    tipptom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    Godge wrote: »
    Yes, partition comes in handy for them.

    If one way of fundraising isn't possible in one jurisdiction, then just attribute it to the other jurisdiction and vice versa.

    Am I the only one worried about the potential for the malign influence on domestic politics of foreign donors? If we allow it for SF, why can't we allow rich American anti-abortion groups to fund referenda campaigns against abortion?

    Some people on here are so desperate to protect their own party SF from all criticism that they don't see the bigger picture.
    The money is donated to Ni not the ROI,please point out where in the 5 page article(if you even read it) where you read that the money was going to the ROI.?
    Just answer that question before you try and skew the thread in to an abortion thread.


    And on the partition issue you have stated on another thread that we have voted to partion Ireland forever,do you want to retract that or carry on making a fool of yourself with your wild hate filled diatribes that has no basis in reality?


  • #106
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    tipptom wrote: »
    The money is donated to Ni not the ROI,please point out where in the 5 page article(if you even read it) where you read that the money was going to the ROI.?
    Just answer that question before you try and skew the thread in to an abortion thread.


    And on the partition issue you have stated on another thread that we have voted to partion Ireland forever,do you want to retract that or carry on making a fool of yourself with your wild hate filled diatribes that has no basis in reality?


    It doesn't have to go to the ROI to influence politics here.

    Large American donor: I want to give money to your party so that you change the laws in the South when you get into government.
    SF fundraiser: We can't accept your money in the South because foreign donations are banned but if you give the money to our Northern arm, we will be eternally grateful and we will do what you want in the South. Here is Gerry, you can talk to him about what you want.


    That is a crude example how partition works for SF in this case in allowing them to accept foreign donations in the North and how it might influence policy in the South. It is the one party, right?

    Again, by focussing on my political views, you are shooting the messenger and not debating the message. Foreign influence on domestic politics is bad.


  • #107
    tipptom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    Godge wrote: »
    It doesn't have to go to the ROI to influence politics here.

    Large American donor: I want to give money to your party so that you change the laws in the South when you get into government.
    SF fundraiser: We can't accept your money in the South because foreign donations are banned but if you give the money to our Northern arm, we will be eternally grateful and we will do what you want in the South. Here is Gerry, you can talk to him about what you want.


    That is a crude example how partition works for SF in this case in allowing them to accept foreign donations in the North and how it might influence policy in the South. It is the one party, right?

    Again, by focussing on my political views, you are shooting the messenger and not debating the message. Foreign influence on domestic politics is bad.
    I would debate the message if that was stated In the Irish Times article which started the thread that the money was going to the ROI but it wasn't and you seem to be fairly sure it is and when you prove that to me it can be debated,forgive me but I am not going to debate something on what you hope it might be.


    You never answered the other question on your version of what we voted for on partition in Ireland.


  • #108
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    tipptom wrote: »
    I would debate the message if that was stated In the Irish Times article which started the thread that the money was going to the ROI but it wasn't and you seem to be fairly sure it is and when you prove that to me it can be debated,forgive me but I am not going to debate something on what you hope it might be.


    I never said it was going to Ireland, I said it was going to SF. It doesn't matter whether it goes into to the coffers in Ireland or in the UK as it will have the same malign influence on the party regardless.
    tipptom wrote: »
    You never answered the other question on your version of what we voted for on partition in Ireland.

    Your question has no relevance to the current thread.


  • #109
    tipptom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    Godge wrote: »
    I never said it was going to Ireland, I said it was going to SF. It doesn't matter whether it goes into to the coffers in Ireland or in the UK as it will have the same malign influence on the party regardless.



    Your question has no relevance to the current thread.
    Money donated to SF in NI has no relevance to SF in the ROI in this thread unless you can prove otherwise which you clearly cannot.


    You were the one who brought up partition!!


  • #110
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Godge wrote: »
    It doesn't have to go to the ROI to influence politics here.

    Large American donor: I want to give money to your party so that you change the laws in the South when you get into government.
    SF fundraiser: We can't accept your money in the South because foreign donations are banned but if you give the money to our Northern arm, we will be eternally grateful and we will do what you want in the South. Here is Gerry, you can talk to him about what you want.


    That is a crude example how partition works for SF in this case in allowing them to accept foreign donations in the North and how it might influence policy in the South. It is the one party, right?

    Again, by focussing on my political views, you are shooting the messenger and not debating the message. Foreign influence on domestic politics is bad.

    Firstly, Im baffled that nobody is pointing out that your entire assertion is based on something you've just made up off the top of your head.
    Secondly, does SF, a party whose members from top to bottom earn the average industrial wage, really sound like a party that is going to allow policy to be influenced by an outside donor.
    The absolute bullsh!t spewed on this site when SF come up is ridiculous.


  • #111
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    What's the sanction for breaking this so called law?
    Well, they're Acts so by definition they're not "so called" laws, they are laws.

    As for sanctions, there are many included - it just depends on what section of which you are in breach.


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  • #112
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Well, they're Acts so by definition they're not "so called" laws, they are laws.

    As for sanctions, there are many included - it just depends on what section of which you are in breach.

    What's the sanction for 'breaking the law' by not paying a utility bill?


  • #113
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,621 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Godge wrote: »
    Before expectationlost reminds me again, I know such funding is banned here in Ireland but not in the UK, but Sinn Fein have found a way around the rules by directing the money to the North meaning it gets lost in the mix and if they can do that, so can the All-Ireland Anti-abortion Alliance (who wants to take the name and copy SF funding arrangements?) and so will others find ways and loopholes.

    which is anti-abortion alliance is funding which political party in the north and then channelling it to which party in the south?


  • #114
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    There's no offence for non-payment of a bill. The legislation simply provides for water services authority to discontinue or restrict the supply of non-payers. In the case of domestic users, they can only restrict supply.

    Late payment penalties can also be added to arrears.

    Not quite sure what this has to do with SF fundraising, but there you go....


  • #115
    tipptom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    Firstly, Im baffled that nobody is pointing out that your entire assertion is based on something you've just made up off the top of your head.
    Secondly, does SF, a party whose members from top to bottom earn the average industrial wage, really sound like a party that is going to allow policy to be influenced by an outside donor.
    The absolute bullsh!t spewed on this site when SF come up is ridiculous.
    Been pointing that out to him all along and asked him to back up his assertions three times but he just ignores it and carries on with the makey uppey stuff because he saw SF in a thread,its pointless.


  • #116
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,621 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Watchdog: Sinn Féin overseas fundraising is beyond our remit

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/watchdog-sinn-fin-overseas-fundraising-is-beyond-our-remit-31051002.html
    Mr O'Neill (SIPOC) said he had been shown no evidence to suggest that the party was committing anything untoward.


  • #117
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Jep Gambardella wrote: »
    There's no offence for non-payment of a bill. The legislation simply provides for water services authority to discontinue or restrict the supply of non-payers. In the case of domestic users, they can only restrict supply.

    Late payment penalties can also be added to arrears.

    Not quite sure what this has to do with SF fundraising, but there you go....

    That's what I thought myself.

    In post 92 a poster brought up something about 'law breakers' not paying water charges.

    I asked what law was been broken.

    In post 98 another poster replied 'Water Services Act'.

    I was just curious to know what law had been broken and as you've pointed out above, none has.

    It seems some posters just want to continually link the words 'law breakers' with 'Sinn fein'.

    That's all, we can move on.


  • #118
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    tipptom wrote: »
    Elaborate please, with facts that have any semblance of truth, not what you are hoping it would be.

    It's my opinion that this looks dodgy. If money donated to SF in NI is being used to fund SF in the ROI then I have a problem with it. While it may not be a breach of the letter of the law it would be a breach of the spirit of the law.

    I've said before that I would consider voting for SF at the next election. However, I take issue with any party playing fast and loose with rules regarding party donations.

    Seems to be a lot of accusations and innuendo made on this thread when the usual suspects see SF being mentioned without a scintilla of evidence to back it up and I am sure if it was not SF that they were levelled at there would be warnings given to back the accusations up.
    [/QUOTE]

    This kind of nonsense is what will put a lot of people off voting for SF. If they want to be treated the same as other parties then they (and their supporters) have to start accepting that the rules and norms of political life in the Republic apply to them the same as everyone else. That includes objective scrutiny by the media. The tendency to dismiss every unflattering about the party as evidence of media bias is starting to wear thin.


  • #119
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    tipptom wrote: »
    Been pointing that out to him all along and asked him to back up his assertions three times but he just ignores it and carries on with the makey uppey stuff because he saw SF in a thread,its pointless.
    expectationlost wrote: »
    Watchdog: Sinn Féin overseas fundraising is beyond our remit

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/watchdog-sinn-fin-overseas-fundraising-is-beyond-our-remit-31051002.html


    The SIPO comments are very interesting.

    He confirms that he has no remit outside the State, which we expected. So nothing SF is doing is illegal and I have not suggested that.

    I have suggested that it is wrong, and bad for politics which is a different thing altogether.

    Asking me to prove something is wrong is impossible.

    I believe it is wrong that political parties in the State are indirectly funded from abroad through being registered as a political party in another jurisdiction because that opens the opportunity for foreign influences on domestic politics. You can't prove my opinion right or wrong and I am fully entitled to hold it.

    It is interesting that the response to date has only been to ask me to back it up or prove it illegal, when the only proof I need for my opinion is there in black and white. SF the party got funds from the USA.

    Not one person has defended the SF fundraising on the basis that it is right and fair and proper that Irish political parties are funded by North American organisations. That says a lot.

    It is quite tiresome that the minute someone offers an opinion about anything SF they are asked to prove it by criminal court standards or withdraw it. Something can be very wrong without being illegal. This is one of those cases.


  • #120
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Arsemageddon wrote: »
    It's my opinion that this looks dodgy. If money donated to SF in NI is being used to fund SF in the ROI then I have a problem with it. While it may not be a breach of the letter of the law it would be a breach of the spirit of the law.

    I've said before that I would consider voting for SF at the next election. However, I take issue with any party playing fast and loose with rules regarding party donations.



    How about Fine Gael having fundraising 'dinner's' in London?

    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CC8QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Ffg-london-fundraiser-charges-100-for-dinner-with-taoiseach-1.1914655&ei=jeL9VPGuB-a07gbD8IDADQ&usg=AFQjCNFJsZeBWSHuhQn_1MP0Y44NPWDYXw


    Or getting money from developers?

    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&ved=0CD4QFjABOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsscoops.org%2F%3Fp%3D291&ei=KeP9VMHpMMaE7gaproH4Bw&usg=AFQjCNF4Iv5BLhneFC7cypdCQNmHn0htrQ


    All above board?


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  • #121
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Godge wrote: »
    The SIPO comments are very interesting.

    He confirms that he has no remit outside the State, which we expected. So nothing SF is doing is illegal and I have not suggested that.

    I have suggested that it is wrong, and bad for politics which is a different thing altogether.

    Asking me to prove something is wrong is impossible.

    I believe it is wrong that political parties in the State are indirectly funded from abroad through being registered as a political party in another jurisdiction because that opens the opportunity for foreign influences on domestic politics. You can't prove my opinion right or wrong and I am fully entitled to hold it.

    It is interesting that the response to date has only been to ask me to back it up or prove it illegal, when the only proof I need for my opinion is there in black and white. SF the party got funds from the USA.

    Not one person has defended the SF fundraising on the basis that it is right and fair and proper that Irish political parties are funded by North American organisations. That says a lot.

    It is quite tiresome that the minute someone offers an opinion about anything SF they are asked to prove it by criminal court standards or withdraw it. Something can be very wrong without being illegal. This is one of those cases.

    All the above, of course, is your opinion.

    Not everyone has that opinion.


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