Stop out of control drinking

darkpagandeath · 08-03-2015 08:08PM

conorh91 wrote: »

Here you go, genius. It's 3.7 billion. Knock yourself out.

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Publications/topics/alcohol/Costs%20to%20Society%20of%20Problem%20Alcohol%20Use%20in%20Ireland.pdf

Nah your alright when in the first pages it says estimates I stop reading. Someone with an agenda is going to link what they want with a cause.

Ted_YNWA · 08-03-2015 08:18PM

conorh91 wrote: »

Here you go, genius. It's 3.7 billion. Knock yourself out.

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Publications/topics/alcohol/Costs%20to%20Society%20of%20Problem%20Alcohol%20Use%20in%20Ireland.pdf

Heading of that is "Cost to society"

" Cost of output lost due to alcohol related absence from work" - does this impact the exchequer that much? , it would impact the production company by even more if their output was down.

Cost of alcohol related premature mortality
Cost of alcohol related suicides

Don't mean to sound flippant, but these costs would be affecting the family moreso. Are they using the loss in potential VAT / PAYE etc ...

there does not seem to be a micro breakdown of the headline figures in that article, just assumptions.

the_monkey · 08-03-2015 08:26PM

sugarman wrote: »

Again, that is nothing unique to Ireland. Its the same attitude in most other EU countries.

It's not though, mind you people in Spain go out and 10 people sit around a glass of water - but thats just being tight cúnts..

darkpagandeath · 08-03-2015 08:26PM

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

Heading of that is "Cost to society"

" Cost of output lost due to alcohol related absence from work" - does this impact the exchequer that much? , it would impact the production company by even more if their output was down.

Cost of alcohol related premature mortality
Cost of alcohol related suicides

Don't mean to sound flippant, but these costs would be affecting the family moreso. Are they using the loss in potential VAT / PAYE etc ...

there does not seem to be a micro breakdown of the headline figures in that article, just assumptions.

All arbitrary to be fair someone with an agenda could just take basic absenteeism figures and say well. 70% I would say is down to drink with no backup. Why I pointed out estimated figures and stopped reading. Estimated figures to me generally are heavily biased on the side you are trying to prove.

conorh91 · 08-03-2015 08:28PM

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

Heading of that is "Cost to society"

Yeah those are the costs borne by the Exchequer, firms and households.

That actually aggravates the statistics, since households and firms don't get any direct benefits of an exchequer return on alcohol, despite having to pay for higher insurance premiums directly, for example.

Cost of output lost due to alcohol related absence from work" - does this impact the exchequer that much? , it would impact the production company by even more if their output was down.

Well since the Exchequer loses taxes on profits and salaries, yes it does. Bear also in mind that the government has about 300,000 employees, and it suffers from low productivity.

Low productivity is only about 10% of the cost. The major costs are criminal justice and healthcare.

darkpagandeath · 08-03-2015 08:32PM

conorh91 wrote: »

Yeah those are the costs borne by the Exchequer, firms and households.

That actually aggravates the statistics, since households and firms don't get any direct benefits of an exchequer return on alcohol, despite having to pay for higher insurance premiums directly, for example.

Well since the Exchequer loses taxes on profits and salaries, yes it does. Bear also in mind that the government has about 300,000 employees, and it suffers from low productivity.

Low productivity is only about 10% of the cost. The major costs are criminal justice and healthcare.

wonder how much courts regular customers cost you know guys with 150 previous convictions. Free legal aid and all that, bet its the bulk of the cost.

Ted_YNWA · 08-03-2015 08:34PM

conorh91 wrote: »

Yeah those are the costs borne by the Exchequer, firms and households.

That actually aggravates the statistics, since households and firms don't get any direct benefits of an exchequer return on alcohol, despite having to pay for higher insurance premiums directly, for example.

Well since the Exchequer loses taxes on profits and salaries, yes it does. Bear also in mind that the government has about 300,000 employees, and it suffers from low productivity.

Low productivity is only about 10% of the cost. The major costs are criminal justice and healthcare.

I agree that these services are affected more by alcohol abuse, but these need to be paid anyway. Judges are paid the same if they have 1 case on the day or 50. There is a huge backlog of cases, so there is unlikely to have been an increase in judges to be paid.

There was a hiring freeze until recently in the guards, again they are not paid on an incident basis.

A&E may be busier, but nurses are paid the same regardless how busy they are. Waiting time increase cannot have a monetary value placed on it.

Calina · 08-03-2015 08:40PM

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

Waiting time increase cannot have a monetary value placed on it.

But this does not mean it cannot be counted as a cost against people's lives, when there may be many other things they would prefer to be doing than a) waiting in A&E because some drunken fool slammed them one in the face and b) waiting in A&E because some drunken fool slammed their friend/relative one in the face. The intangible costs may be difficult to quantify but this does not mean they do not exist.

darkpagandeath · 08-03-2015 08:43PM

Calina wrote: »

But this does not mean it cannot be counted as a cost against people's lives, when there may be many other things they would prefer to be doing than a) waiting in A&E because some drunken fool slammed them one in the face and b) waiting in A&E because some drunken fool slammed their friend/relative one in the face. The intangible costs may be difficult to quantify but this does not mean they do not exist.

A&E is not packed to the roof with Drunks, That's what people want to see when they go in, over the past number of years people in A&E are regular hospital patients being admitted that way. No beds for them on trolleys, But don't that that get in the way.

Ted_YNWA · 08-03-2015 08:44PM

Calina wrote: »

But this does not mean it cannot be counted as a cost against people's lives, when there may be many other things they would prefer to be doing than a) waiting in A&E because some drunken fool slammed them one in the face and b) waiting in A&E because some drunken fool slammed their friend/relative one in the face. The intangible costs may be difficult to quantify but this does not mean they do not exist.

The majority of these instances happen after 2 AM, is there intangible costs associated with sleep or having sex?

that is what most family/friends would have been doing if they did not end up in A&E because of said incident.

Calina · 08-03-2015 08:46PM

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

The majority of these instances happen after 2 AM, is there intangible costs associated with sleep or having sex?

that is what most family/friends would have been doing if they did not end up in A&E because of said incident.

Seriously dude, which would you prefer, to be asleep/having sex or sitting in the A&E in Beaumont?

That's like an opportunity cost in terms of sleep/sex in favour of sitting in a waiting room. If you're happy to consider being in a waiting room as being equivalent in life terms to sex or sleep, go for it. Personally I don't and my life is improved by not having to go to A&E in the main.

Magnate · 08-03-2015 08:47PM

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

The majority of these instances happen after 2 AM, is there intangible costs associated with sleep or having sex?

that is what most family/friends would have been doing if they did not end up in A&E because of said incident.

Nothing Good Happens After 2 A.M

Baby Jane · 08-03-2015 08:47PM

I agree with abnormalising getting so wasted on shots, wine, cocktails etc that you collapse or get into fights, and then spend hours vomiting and are sick in bed for the next day.
It's poisoning yourself - why not emphasise this?

That's different to getting a bit drunk from a few beers.

Ted_YNWA · 08-03-2015 08:48PM

Calina wrote: »

Seriously dude, which would you prefer, to be asleep/having sex or sitting in the A&E in Beaumont?

That's like an opportunity cost in terms of sleep/sex in favour of sitting in a waiting room. If you're happy to consider being in a waiting room as being equivalent in life terms to sex or sleep, go for it. Personally I don't and my life is improved by not having to go to A&E in the main.

You said that there was intangible costs implied, I was trying to figure out where they are coming from.

Of course I would prefer to be anywhere except A&E at any hour.

Fakediamond · 08-03-2015 08:51PM

The issue is that the "out of control" drinkers are problem drinkers and it's likely that their drinking will affect other areas of their lives too, work, relationships, anti-social behaviour.

We need to stop thinking that it's "craic" and see it for what it is - sad lives really.

As for expecting the drinks industry to tackle it - would you ask a heroin dealer to sell more responsibly and expect a positive response? I don't think so.

conorh91 · 08-03-2015 08:51PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

wonder how much courts regular customers cost you know guys with 150 previous convictions. Free legal aid and all that, bet its the bulk of the cost.

Most public order offences don't require legal aid, or even legal representation.

The criminal legal aid bill is about 50 million euro: about 0.05% of the alcohol-related crime costs. Most of criminal-justice related costs are from additional Garda time and resources, damage to property, etc.

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

Judges are paid the same if they have 1 case on the day or 50.

Read the report. The costs to the courts is absolutely minimal. In fact, you could exclude it and it wouldn't be noticed.

There was a hiring freeze until recently in the guards, again they are not paid on an incident basis.

The point is not necessarily an issue of labour costs (even though it is, through overtime, and the alcohol-related hiring needs prior to the public service recruitment embargo) but also the allocation of resources. For example, Gardai being unable to give adequate attention to non-violent burglaries, or are unable to detect those crimes, because there are too many members of the force patrolling the city streets at night time on foot or by car, which is a waste of resources.

A&E may be busier, but nurses are paid the same regardless how busy they are.

No, nurses and doctors are paid overtime as required, and extra staff: agency staff, are notoriously expensive.

Waiting time increase cannot have a monetary value placed on it.

Of course it can. Resource allocation again. If I injure my leg in rugby and I end up in A&E, but cannot be seen until 5am because of the drunks causing a bottleneck, then I'm going to take the next day off work.

Multiply that by every other person who is delayed in A&E, or in-patients whose treatment is delayed, or cancelled, because of staffing and financial pressures in A&E.

Magnate · 08-03-2015 08:52PM

Baby Jane wrote: »

I agree with abnormalising getting so wasted on shots, wine, cocktails etc that you collapse or get into fights, and then spend hours vomiting and are sick in bed for the next day.
It's poisoning yourself - why not emphasise this?

That's different to getting a bit drunk from a few beers.

While I agree with you, it's also possible to drink spirits/wines in moderation and I don't think we should stigmatise these. I've seen just as many people collapsing/getting into fights having been drinking beer all night. I much prefer the taste of a good tequila and I find the hangovers to be non existent too, whereas a few beers would wreck me the next day.

darkpagandeath · 08-03-2015 08:54PM

conorh91 wrote: »

Most public order offences don't require legal aid, or even legal representation.

The criminal legal aid bill is about 50 million euro: about 0.05% of the alcohol-related crime costs. Most of criminal-justice related costs are from additional Garda time and resources, damage to property, etc.

Read the report. The costs to the courts is absolutely minimal. In fact, you could exclude it and it wouldn't be noticed.

The point is not necessarily an issue of labour costs (even though it is, through overtime, and the alcohol-related hiring needs prior to the public service recruitment embargo) but also the allocation of resources. For example, Gardai being unable to give adequate attention to non-violent burglaries, or are unable to detect those crimes, because there are too many members of the force patrolling the city streets at night time on foot or by car, which is a waste of resources.

No, nurses and doctors are paid overtime as required, and extra staff: agency staff, are notoriously expensive.

Of course it can. Resource allocation again. If I injure my leg in rugby and I end up in A&E, but cannot be seen until 5am because of the drunks causing a bottleneck, then I'm going to take the next day off work.

Multiply that by every other person who is delayed in A&E, or in-patients whose treatment is delayed, or cancelled, because of staffing and financial pressures in A&E.

Are these the same estimated figures being used ? You seem to be under the impression actual crime is the lowest cost. I can assure you it's not.

Ted_YNWA · 08-03-2015 08:59PM

I think we may be dragging the thread off topic over what is costing the Exchequer & what is costing Society as a whole.

I have been in clubs on the continent that were open to 6 AM, & there were people coming & going the whole time. We left at 3 AM & people were coming in.

It is seen as sociably acceptable to drink double figures in pints or shorts on a night out here. If you don't partake in rounds, you are deemed a lightweight.

darkpagandeath · 08-03-2015 09:01PM

Mr.S wrote: »

It just wouldn't work here.

Can you imagine the carnage of letting <18 year olds to legally drink!? Those groups of teens you see drinking on the streets, in bars and clubs, legally...:eek:

Yes, it works in other countries, but they (for the most part) have a better drinking culture then us.

Ireland is in the "drink as much as you can in the quickest amount of time" mentality, other countries - who often have higher consumption rates the us - don't.

Change the culture of drinking here then lower the age, not before!

Again that's price and stupid laws governing opening times and all that.

Baby Jane · 08-03-2015 09:02PM

Magnate wrote: »

While I agree with you, it's also possible to drink spirits/wines in moderation and I don't think we should stigmatise these. I've seen just as many people collapsing/getting into fights having been drinking beer all night. I much prefer the taste of a good tequila and I find the hangovers to be non existent too, whereas a few beers would wreck me the next day.

Sorry yes of course - it is obviously possible for someone to drink spirits without blacking out and waking up in a pool of vomit. I enjoy rum myself, and sparkly wine, and cocktails.

I just used drinks containing higher levels of alcohol to illustrate my point, it's probably harder to get that wasted on beer (although not impossible).

EoghanIRL · 08-03-2015 09:10PM

I also feel that drink is used as a reward. For example if you finish work/exams at christmas then people tend to go for the 12 pubs type thing. Which is 12 drinks in a short period of time. Most people I know wouldn't be in a great state after 12 pints or shots in a night. This type of drinking definitely leads to aggression and passing out.

It was mentioned earlier that in Ireland some people ,specifically younger people , go out to get plastered drunk rather than enjoying the companies of their friends. I'm a college student and see it all the time. Every thursday and tuesday night is get as drunk as you possibly can night.

This isn't enjoying alcohol wisely!

EoghanIRL · 08-03-2015 09:13PM

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

I think we may be dragging the thread off topic over what is costing the Exchequer & what is costing Society as a whole.

I have been in clubs on the continent that were open to 6 AM, & there were people coming & going the whole time. We left at 3 AM & people were coming in.

It is seen as sociably acceptable to drink double figures in pints or shorts on a night out here. If you don't partake in rounds, you are deemed a lightweight.

This just highlights how social status plays such a large role in the culture.

Richard Hillman · 08-03-2015 09:14PM

Some people have to control their drinking, most people dont. The people that dont, shouldnt have to suffer because of those who need to. There should be stiffer sentences for drunken crimes. Being drunk shouldnt be a defence, it should be an add on to the crime.

Ted_YNWA · 08-03-2015 09:16PM

EoghanIRL wrote: »

This just highlights how social status plays such a large role in the culture.

have also seen, when someone does slow down the intake, people still include them in the round so drinks are building up in front of them. This forces them effectively to "catch-up".

martingriff · 08-03-2015 09:46PM

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

have also seen, when someone does slow down the intake, people still include them in the round so drinks are building up in front of them. This forces them effectively to "catch-up".

Someone has a gun to there head. OR I know this may be a rogue suggestion do not drink them

Ted_YNWA · 08-03-2015 09:50PM

martingriff wrote: »

Someone has a gun to there head. OR I know this may be a rogue suggestion do not drink them

Not everyone has the willpower to say no to Peer Pressure.

hatrickpatrick · 09-03-2015 02:20PM

Hollis Hurlbut wrote: »

Sexual repression? Inhibitions? You're reading way too much into it and you sound like you're just making things up to be honest.

My family is from another European country and are very religious. No sexual repression and no desire by any of them to get hammered every week.

What has religion got to do with anything? You've just said, "no sexual repression and no desire by any of them to get hammered", which would actually imply that my hypothesis is correct. If you're not repressed, you don't need to chemically hide your inhibitions.

Egginacup · 09-03-2015 06:21PM

EoghanIRL wrote: »

I heard http://www.rolemodels.ie/ radio add earlier today.

Personally i think that Ireland's drinking culture is well established and needs to change. It is especially bad amongst young people , specifically in college students. I'm also of the opinion that alcohol is ok if enjoyed sensibly but the norm in Ireland for a long time now is binge drinking. I don't see why alcohol abuse is seen as being more acceptable than any other type of drug abuse in Ireland. I think that a change in the population's attitude to alcohol could only be a good thing and that the benefits would by far outweigh the disadvantages. Seeing how alcohol links in with many other problems also such as the high rate in male suicide , depression and so on.

I think a campaign that would try and tackle our drink culture and that would change our drinking habits would be very welcome if it could make some well needed changes.

Do we need to change our drink culture?

How can you change Ireland's drink culture? I don't think it's possible in the slightest.
Irish people are beerheads plain and simple. We are not loners. We like company and chatting and if you are lonely you go to the pub and drink and talk to people, even if it's just the barman.
Also lad culture is nothing new. Males always had a skinfull before trying to get into someone's knickers in Ireland. The Irish associate alcohol with good things, fun, company, romance, shagging. It's hard to get people to quit booze when they psychologically connect being a bit drunk with the aforementioned. Irish people wouldn't sit home on a Friday night and down 10 cans of Heineken on their own and then go to bed so it's not the drink alone that is the factor but rather what's associated with the booze, i.e. the possibility of getting into bed (or at least a good snog/grope session and a phone number) with someone and failing that then at least a load of jokes with friends as well as leering at members of the opposite sex.

In short, booze in Ireland is part of the mating ritual for the majority of people. Of all the girlfriends/flings that I've had, only 3 or 4 were from completely day-to-day encounters (at work, friend's house, one I met in a shop). The rest were met in a bar/club or we got together after a few scoops.

Shenshen · 09-03-2015 06:26PM

Egginacup wrote: »

How can you change Ireland's drink culture? I don't think it's possible in the slightest.
Irish people are beerheads plain and simple. We are not loners. We like company and chatting and if you are lonely you go to the pub and drink and talk to people, even if it's just the barman.
Also lad culture is nothing new. Males always had a skinfull before trying to get into someone's knickers in Ireland. The Irish associate alcohol with good things, fun, company, romance, shagging. It's hard to get people to quit booze when they psychologically connect being a bit drunk with the aforementioned. Irish people wouldn't sit home on a Friday night and down 10 cans of Heineken on their own and then go to bed so it's not the drink alone that is the factor but rather what's associated with the booze, i.e. the possibility of getting into bed (or at least a good snog/grope session and a phone number) with someone and failing that then at least a load of jokes with friends as well as leering at members of the opposite sex.

In short, booze in Ireland is part of the mating ritual for the majority of people. Of all the girlfriends/flings that I've had, only 3 or 4 were from completely day-to-day encounters (at work, friend's house, one I met in a shop). The rest were met in a bar/club or we got together after a few scoops.

So a good approach would be to start providing other possibilities and locations to socialise and have a good time. Cafes being open past 6pm would be a fantastic start, in my opinion.

Stop out of control drinking

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