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Another Company Discriminates Against Gays

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  • #932
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,937 ✭✭✭galljga1


    There are numerous cases out there, these two caught my eye

    http://outfrontonline.com/news/pro-lgbt-baker-slapped-religious-discrimination-complaint/

    http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2014/10/08/3577721/lexington-t-shirt-discrimination/


  • #933
    B_Wayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭B_Wayne


    K4t wrote: »
    It's actually your logic which is flawed as thankfully we don't have segregation laws or Jim Crow laws in this country. Or am I unaware of such laws against gay people in Ireland?

    Except your arguing in favour of a business being freely allowed to reject the custom of gay people. Thankfully, equality should cover it but you guys are gonna be completely outraged if they do take a case. However the case would be rather legitimate, is there ever a point where you're likely to be rejected because of a trait? Civil partnerships are not remotely offensive to be blunt.


  • #934
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    bjork wrote: »
    That wasn't my response, that was part of the post. They were patting themselves on the back
    You've lost me.

    I think we both agree that the business owners views do not belong in a modern, civilised society. But whereas I would not force them by law to renounce their views, you and others would. Instead, I think the social media outrage route (and now the LGBT banner as well) is multiple times better than anything that could be achieved in a court room in this case.


  • #935
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    gozunda wrote: »
    well written fiction - yeah
    Any chance of a coherent reply from yourself as requested above by Akrasia??

    Clarify please ............ which question by Akrasia would you like me to reply to exactly?


  • #936
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    B_Wayne wrote: »
    Except your arguing in favour of a business being freely allowed to reject the custom of gay people. Thankfully, equality should cover it but you guys are gonna be completely outraged if they do take a case. However the case would be rather legitimate, is there ever a point where you're likely to be rejected because of a trait? Civil partnerships are not remotely offensive to be blunt.
    Nope, If I as a straight person walked in and asked them to print the same invitations, they would probably have refused. And that is their right, whether you or I like it or not. You cannot force them to comply to our belief on same sex marriage. They would not have been discriminating against me because of my sex in the same scenario. I could have asked them to print a few birthday invitations in the same breath and they would presumably have agreed.


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  • #937
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    K4t wrote: »
    You've lost me.

    I think we both agree that the business owners views do not belong in a modern, civilised society. But whereas I would not force them by law to renounce their views, you and others would. Instead, I think the social media outrage route (and now the LGBT banner as well) is multiple times better than anything that could be achieved in a court room in this case.

    No, I don't agree with you there. There's room for everyone, even religious people.


  • #938
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    bjork wrote: »
    No, I don't agree with you there. There's room for everyone, even religious people.
    But only the religious people who conform to yours and my idea of what is right and fair? The more extreme believers should face court!


  • #939
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    K4t wrote: »
    But only the religious people who conform to yours and my idea of what is right and fair? The more extreme believers should face court!

    Why your or my idea?
    Why not the law?


    Remember the guy that didn't break the law that was hounded out of business by hard line bigots? Also some of his staff, who also didn't break the law>>Abused so much they had to leave their jobs

    by a social media witch hunt
    Because he removed and item from display in his store. He didn't refuse to serve anyone or discriminate against anyone. He removed a product from sale.

    Yet Other business who solely discriminate by sexuality are applauded


  • #940
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    bjork wrote: »
    Why your or my idea?
    Why not the law?


    Remember the guy that didn't break the law that was hounded out of business by hard line bigots? Also some of his staff, who also didn't break the law>>Abused so much they had to leave their jobs

    by a social media witch hunt
    Because he removed and item from display in his store. He didn't refuse to serve anyone or discriminate against anyone. He removed a product from sale.

    Yet Other business who solely discriminate by sexuality are applauded
    You've gone way off track. Social media has the power to do good and bad, like nearly everything. We are a lot better for it than without however, and there is no question of its legitimacy and legality. The business owners in Drogheda did not directly discriminate by sexuality, even if you want to argue that not supporting same sex marriage is sexual discrimination in itself.


  • #941
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,780 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ISIS are throwing gay people off buildings and not one thread.

    Somebody politely refuses to do something for a gay couple due to their beliefs and respectfully says no. Pitchforks are grabbed.

    I wonder what would happen should the Westboro baptist church apply for position in the pride march. Think they would be accepted ?


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  • #942
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,253 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Everyone is on about rights while ignoring the rights of the business owners under the constitution

    The owners have a right to the freedom of conscience and the free expression of their religion under the Irish Constitution except in the eyes of some who want to refuse them that right.


    ARTICLE 44

    1 The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion.


    2 1° Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen.


  • #943
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    Deleted User wrote: »
    ISIS are throwing gay people off buildings and not one thread.
    I'm pretty sure ISIS wouldn't discriminate between myself and yourself and gay people in deciding who to throw off a building..


  • #944
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    Mack Jolly Storybook wrote: »
    Everyone is on about rights while ignoring the rights of the business owners under the constitution
    People are silly alright. They'd rather go after the individual and impinge his rights, than religion, which creates these backward beliefs and divisions in our society.


  • #945
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    It's happened again :(


    I said feck Cork>> I'll book with budget travel and go to

    The centre of Playa del Inglés, where there is a selection of shops, bars and restaurants, is a 5-minute taxi ride from the complex. You can hire a car or bicycle from the tour desk and an airport shuttle service is available for an extra charge.Exclusively gay and lesbian

    WELCOME TO VISTA BONITA - GAY & LESBIAN EXCLUSIVE

    http://www.budgettravel.ie/cheap-sun-holidays/europe/spain/gran-canaria/maspalomas/vista-bonita-gay-amp-lesbian-exclusive-holidays.aspx



    I'm devastated :(


  • #946
    B_Wayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭B_Wayne


    happy_knome wrote: »
    why are single mothers presented as examples so often

    have they attained hero status amongst the left ?

    Because they're a group that faced an absurd amount of commonplace discrimination in recent Irish history by the ultra religious...


  • #947
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,253 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    gozunda wrote: »
    I was referring to the teaching of Christ. As for your reply - That was >Paul< not Jesus. So where is anti gay sentiment stated as a basic principal of Christisity as claimed? As far as I remember Jesus was big into inclusivity even with people others considered 'sinners'. He also talked about a lot of things and sodomy can be practised by both hetro and homosexuals. So I hope the printers have a questionnaire to check their customers don't engage in such practises or have sex outside marriage or keep holy the sabbath day? I hope they are at least consistent.


    Couldn't agree more ;)

    Jesus defines marriage clearly in the gospels

    Matthew 19:4-6New International Version (NIV)

    4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’URL="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+19:4-6&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23767a"]a[/URL 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’URL="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+19:4-6&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23768b"]b[/URL? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”


    He also refers to what happened with Noah an Sodom and Gomorrah



    Luke 17:26-28New International Version (NIV)

    26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
    28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building.

    The Old Testament clearly says why the flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah occurred. Jesus never once said what happened was wrong.

    Paul goes on to deal with homosexuality and Gods thoughts on it very clearly in Romans 1

    21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
    24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
    26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
    28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


    Anyone who thinks God made them homosexual and approves of it clearly never read the Bible.



    Before anyone starts shouting that God approves of homosexuals being stoned, Paul goes on to say in Romans 6:23
    "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
    He doesn't discriminate between levels of sin, we all are deserving of death and yet He offers eternal life to those who believe in Him.


  • #948
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,874 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    gozunda wrote: »
    To the best recall of my biblical knowledge I don't believe Jesus Christ ever had a go at homosexuals tbh. I certainly don't consider it a basic principle of "Christianity". Its certainly in the OT where they suggest stoning homosexuals and others. My point was that few of the general public would be aware that the Printers were fundamental Christians even with that archaic reference to the OT.


    You know there are literally hundreds of denominations, orders and sects within Christianity that all interpret the Bible differently?

    You also ignored in my post where I pointed out the flatscreen television in the shop displaying religious messages, so even if you were never aware of the meaning of the archaic reference, the modern looking flatscreen tv would be a giveaway. I'm also not seeing any evidence that they were fundamentalist Christians, but then I can only assume your ideas of fundamentalism and mine are worlds apart.

    I knew this thread has been going on for a while and I cant blame you for getting a bit mixed up, but I was not using "examples of extreme prejudice"(!)) rather I asked a very valid question - if the printer refuses to do business with single parents and children born out of wedlock based on his fundamental beliefs


    Well, to answer your own question above -
    I suggest you start a new thread on that if it bothers you.

    How many times and in how many ways can you ask the same question? I asked a very valid question - if the printer refuses to do business with single parents and children born out of wedlock based on his fundamental beliefs. Thankfully children are no longer referred to as 'bastards' and I put it in a way that I've seen it in fundamentalists literature. Hilarious alright.


    Same again -

    I suggest you start a new thread on that if it bothers you.

    I didn't say otherwise, but the accidental opportunity and time of this incident is highly unlikely imo.


    Yes, it is, isn't it? You should contact the salon owner and ask him about that. I would say the opportunity was far from accidental and the timing and circumstances of this incident do seem quite coincidental.

    1) Who are providing civil partnerships?


    The Irish State is providing for civil partnerships and the Irish State is discriminating against LGBT people, but there's nobody hanging LGBT flags out of Leinster House.

    2) Please provide reference


    I'm not going back through a whole thread. You can sue me for defamation and make it worth my while ;)

    3) I've no need to find the printers 'wrong' The customer has already found that and I'm sure he will be taking it further if required


    If that salon owner has an ounce of humanity in him, he would be examining his conscience right now and thinking "What have I done?".

    To destroy another man's livelihood like that and to get to the point where people are hanging LGBT flags outside his premises, to destroy his business on social media... and all for the sake of a fcuking wedding invitation.

    That takes some fcuking doing. I wouldn't be very proud of myself if I were him right now.

    You do go on ;. The customers statement and reaction is fairly self explanatory imo - I do not need to embellish that any further


    Trust me, you've embellished enough :p

    I'm sure that will have to be demonstrated. Im sure you will be attending to give your absolute version of events for the benefit of the Equality Officer :rolleyes:


    I'll meet you there, we can go for coffee and a bun afterwards? :D

    I'm sure they did, and where they didn't I'm sure there was prosecutions


    That's not what I asked you though.

    I suggest again you start another thread on that rather than derail this one


    We're through the looking glass here gozunda, we've come this far, in for a penny and all that jazz! :rolleyes:

    OEJ - You appear every now and again to move between playing good cop / reasonable fellow with your opinions and arguments. And then launch into bad cop / extreme dito. Any reason for the dichotomy?


    Plenty of reasons gozunda tbh, but none I'd really be prepared to divulge on a public forum. I'll save that kinda stuff for the confession box in the morning ;)


  • #949
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,451 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    ISIS are throwing gay people off buildings and not one thread.

    Somebody politely refuses to do something for a gay couple due to their beliefs and respectfully says no. Pitchforks are grabbed.

    I wonder what would happen should the Westboro baptist church apply for position in the pride march. Think they would be accepted ?

    Discussion requires disagreement. ISIS are beyond discussion because no sane person defends their actions

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • #950
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,992 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    You know there are literally hundreds of denominations, orders and sects within Christianity that all interpret the Bible differently?

    Really? OMG I never knew that !
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    You also ignored in my post where I pointed out the flatscreen television in the shop displaying religious messages, so even if you were never aware of the meaning of the archaic reference, the modern looking flatscreen tv would be a giveaway. I'm also not seeing any evidence that they were fundamentalist Christians, but then I can only assume your ideas of fundamentalism and mine are worlds apart.

    I ignored it because it's irrelevant. How the fx would the general public be aware of the TV? You do have a habit of asking questions that have nothing to do with what was discussed previously. It's fairly transparent though ;). But anyway not all 'religious' people are bigots and would necessarily refuse such a simple order.
    Regarding christian fundamentalism - here is a quote from the owner of the printing business
    Beulah Print defended their decision to refuse to print the invites, issuing an official statement citing grounds of religious beliefs: "We, at Beulah Print, are Bible-believing Christians who are committed to standing by our conscience and God’s Word.

    That's fairly fundamental in my book oh and refusing to print an invite as well ...
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Well, to answer your own question above -

    arn't you very clever - but that's irrelevant.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Yes, it is, isn't it? You should contact the salon owner and ask him about that. I would say the opportunity was far from accidental and the timing and circumstances of this incident do seem quite coincidental.

    Oh clever. Well done again - turning the blame back on the person refused the order for some invites to the customers civil union.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    The Irish State is providing for civil partnerships and the Irish State is discriminating against LGBT people, but there's nobody hanging LGBT flags out of Leinster House.

    You should get on to them immediately for sure!
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    'm not going back through a whole thread. You can sue me for defamation and make it worth my while ;)

    Thought so.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    If that salon owner has an ounce of humanity in him, he would be examining his conscience right now and thinking "What have I done?". To destroy another man's livelihood like that and to get to the point where people are hanging LGBT flags outside his premises, to destroy his business on social media... and all for the sake of a fcuking wedding invitation.
    That takes some fcuking doing. I wouldn't be very proud of myself if I were him right now.

    There you go again turning the facts backwards. Maybe the printer guy should thought through refusing an order in the way that he did. You appear to be getting quite emotional about the whole thing. They are grown men and there are places where such disputes can be adjudicated on. I would suggest let them play it out and see what happens. If you don't wish to promote the whole social media thing,I would suggest not engaging in this discussion any further on a public forum otherwise you're only continuing the whole thing and making yourself feel guilty. Probably the best way to save your own conscience and all that.
    Plenty of reasons gozunda tbh, but none I'd really be prepared to divulge on a public forum. I'll save that kinda stuff for the confession box in the morning ;)

    Confessional box tactics - I see ...


  • #951
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    If they have the right to hang a flag outside his premises> He has the right to turn up at their wedding with a cross


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  • #952
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,992 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    bjork wrote: »
    If they have the right to hang a flag outside his premises> He has the right to turn up at their wedding with a cross

    But who hung the flag? Random bored people or others who don't like discrimination ? Is the saloon owner involved? would he condone such an action?. I presume the christians rather than turning up at the guys union would 'turn the other cheek' no?


  • #953
    Pedro Gonzalez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭Pedro Gonzalez


    This topic has been done to death.
    The gay lobby v The hidden homophobes.

    In a nutshell.


  • #954
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    gozunda wrote: »
    But who hung the flag? Random bored people or others who don't like discrimination ? Is the saloon owner involved? would he condone such an action?. I presume the christians rather than turning up at the guys union would 'turn the other cheek' no?

    Well he shared and liked it on his facebook page> So I'm going to go with "Yes"


  • #955
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Pedro Gonzalez wrote: »
    This topic has been done to death.
    The gay lobby v The hidden homophobes.

    In a nutshell.

    Ha

    Nope I would say some are yes, But a lot of us who don't agree are talking sense rather than running around shouting Murder. Shouting Murder does not make it so that's why we have laws. Running to the social media and the media even before taking legal action. Saying the law has been broken even before it has reached court, To be fair is beyond idiocy.


  • #956
    DanWall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 509 ✭✭✭DanWall


    entropi wrote: »
    Surely there are other printing companies nearby who will fulfil this request? I have a feeling the owner of the business involved might see a drop in business due to this news spreading around.

    Why? don't assume everyone supports gays


  • #957
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,937 ✭✭✭galljga1


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by entropi viewpost.gif
    Surely there are other printing companies nearby who will fulfil this request? I have a feeling the owner of the business involved might see a drop in business due to this news spreading around.
    DanWall wrote: »
    Why? don't assume everyone supports gays

    Boylans in Drogheda is one. They print Gay Community News mag. They were undercut by and lost the contract to a northern publisher once, run by a staunch protestant who when he discovered what he was being asked to print refused to do so. Hence, Boylans print it since then.


  • #958
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,992 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    DanWall wrote: »
    Why? don't assume everyone supports gays

    Sounds bad indeed. Who are these unsupportable 'gays' of whom you speak?


  • #959
    Pedro Gonzalez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭Pedro Gonzalez


    Don't want to derail this thread,but I'd like to put a question out there...

    If someone feels repulsed by the notion of male on male sex,would that make the said person a homophobe?

    I don't want to offend and I'm not acting the boll*x,just would genuinely like to know what people think?


  • #960
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    gozunda wrote: »
    Sounds bad indeed. Who are these unsupportable 'gays' of whom you speak?

    Eh Being Gay automatically makes one right ?


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  • #961
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    Pedro Gonzalez wrote: »
    Don't want to derail this thread,but I'd like to put a question out there...

    If someone feels repulsed by the notion of male on male sex,would that make the said person a homophobe?

    I don't want to offend and I'm not acting the boll*x,just would genuinely like to know what people think?

    Repulsed?


    According to AH if you don't stand by the side of your bed, cheering on 2 gay people have sex in it> You're a homophobe


This discussion has been closed.
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