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Ireland vs England, Sunday 1st March 3pm; RTE/BBC

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    #1472
    Swiwi.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    total former wrote: »
    Yeah, this is what we seem to be missing here. You drop POM and shift O'Brien to a position he hasn't played in about four years, just to accommodate Murphy? Very unlikely.

    That said, POM is definitely not "undroppable", and the next few years will see a titanic struggle between him, Henderson and Ruddock for the 6 jersey.

    Ulster fans not allowed to reply, but is it just me, or is Henderson not currently a tad over-rated on this forum? I'm not saying he's not good, because he is, but some posters would have you believe he's simply amazing. I think he's better adding impact from the bench but there is no way I would drop POM or Ruddock from starting 6 to make way for Henderson at the moment.


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    #1473
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,190 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Swiwi. wrote: »
    Ulster fans not allowed to reply, but is it just me, or is Henderson not currently a tad over-rated on this forum? I'm not saying he's not good, because he is, but some posters would have you believe he's simply amazing. I think he's better adding impact from the bench but there is no way I would drop POM or Ruddock from starting 6 to make way for Henderson at the moment.

    I would agree, too much expectation put on him given his arrival as a freakishly powerful player coincided with the demise of Fez.

    Although he does has the potential to be really excellent, he's more of a highlight reel player right now than someone that goes into a game and dominates the opposition, to my mind. In his full 6N debut a year ago, he was pretty anonymous. He doesn't have the ability at the breakdown (yet) to be a good test option in the back row but he could be a really top class lock in the mould of guys like Etzebeth or Retallick given his mobility, power and skill levels.

    He is improving each season but I think he won't truly be an excellent player for another couple of years. He should be aiming to nail down an Irish jersey next season, first and foremost.


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    #1474
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,758 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Swiwi. wrote: »
    Ulster fans not allowed to reply, but is it just me, or is Henderson not currently a tad over-rated on this forum? I'm not saying he's not good, because he is, but some posters would have you believe he's simply amazing. I think he's better adding impact from the bench but there is no way I would drop POM or Ruddock from starting 6 to make way for Henderson at the moment.

    Ahh Swiwi first you doubted Trimble and now it's Henderson's turn. I'll say no more since I'm not allowed to reply:)


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    #1475
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Swiwi. wrote: »
    Ulster fans not allowed to reply, but is it just me, or is Henderson not currently a tad over-rated on this forum? I'm not saying he's not good, because he is, but some posters would have you believe he's simply amazing. I think he's better adding impact from the bench but there is no way I would drop POM or Ruddock from starting 6 to make way for Henderson at the moment.

    I agree hes not there yet. Hes definitely not getting ahead of POM and probably Ruddock at blindside, but I think he'll become a wonderful lock in time. He only turned 23 a few weeks ago, he has a few years and a lot of learning to go to become a top class international lock, but I think when he gets there he will be excellent. Towards the end of last season with Ulster he was becoming the really dominant second row we need/want/expect him to be, he needs a run of games there


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    #1476
    Zzippy
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    England
    awec wrote: »
    In future we will really only see SOB at 6 in case of emergency IMO, or else during a mid-game shuffle. He hasn't played there in ages, I think it's fair to say that SOB is now a 7 only (cause he's always been a bit meh at 8).

    Plenty of other quality options at 6 that can play without upsetting the other parts of the back row.

    If POM is injured and Henry available I'd rather see SOB at 6 and Henry at 7 than Ruddock at 6 and SOB at 7. Henry for me is a better 7 than Ruddock is a 6, and SOB plays regardless, so I think Henry at 7 weakens the team less than Ruddock at 6. All hypothetical of course, as POM is fit and Henry not...


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    #1477
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,459 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Swiwi. wrote: »
    Ulster fans not allowed to reply, but is it just me, or is Henderson not currently a tad over-rated on this forum? I'm not saying he's not good, because he is, but some posters would have you believe he's simply amazing. I think he's better adding impact from the bench but there is no way I would drop POM or Ruddock from starting 6 to make way for Henderson at the moment.

    He is a far better 6 than lock but Ireland play him at lock. IMO he is a better 6 than Ruddock, there's not much between them and I'm just backing him cause he plays for Ulster. :)


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    #1478
    matthew8
    Registered Users Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭matthew8


    England
    Swiwi. wrote: »
    Ulster fans not allowed to reply, but is it just me, or is Henderson not currently a tad over-rated on this forum? I'm not saying he's not good, because he is, but some posters would have you believe he's simply amazing. I think he's better adding impact from the bench but there is no way I would drop POM or Ruddock from starting 6 to make way for Henderson at the moment.

    I wouldn't say he's overrated at all. I think he's one of the best players not starting in the competition. He makes a massive impact, just look at how much he improved Ulster for the Leicester match.


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    #1479
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    awec wrote: »
    He is a far better 6 than lock but Ireland play him at lock. IMO he is a better 6 than Ruddock, there's not much between them and I'm just backing him cause he plays for Ulster. :)

    But there was any much difference between lock and blindside around the park. Both are there to move bodies out of the way. Playing with a 5 or 6 on your back shouldn't make a difference there.


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    #1480
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,758 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    In fact I will comment to say that I don't think he is overrated in that I don't think anyone is saying anything else other than he has the potential to be a very good player and more. I don't think anyone, including Ulster fans, thinks he should be starting at the minute while everyone else is available.

    One thing is for sure, he isn't the most overrated or overhyped player on this MB...I'll not say who that is in case I do a Putin and start WW3...


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    #1481
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Zzippy wrote: »
    If POM is injured and Henry available I'd rather see SOB at 6 and Henry at 7 than Ruddock at 6 and SOB at 7. Henry for me is a better 7 than Ruddock is a 6, and SOB plays regardless, so I think Henry at 7 weakens the team less than Ruddock at 6. All hypothetical of course, as POM is fit and Henry not...

    Yeah but SOB is also a much better 7 than Henry is. Schmidt definitely rates Henry but I have a feeling if that situation came up he'd go with the straight swap at 6 with Ruddock in for POM, particularly after the way he shoehorned Ruddock in during the AIs. I also think you're underrating Ruddock, who has been an absolute monster for Leinster the last season or two


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    #1482
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,758 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    awec wrote: »
    He is a far better 6 than lock but Ireland play him at lock. IMO he is a better 6 than Ruddock, there's not much between them and I'm just backing him cause he plays for Ulster. :)

    I know he came on for Toner on Sunday but have his other games from the bench this season not been in the back row? Sometimes it's easy to lose track in the last 10 mins of a game but I think he was in the back row against Italy and France...might be wrong though...


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    #1483
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    bilston wrote: »
    In fact I will comment to say that I don't think he is overrated in that I don't think anyone is saying anything else other than he has the potential to be a very good player and more. I don't think anyone, including Ulster fans, thinks he should be starting at the minute while everyone else is available.

    One thing is for sure, he isn't the most overrated or overhyped player on this MB...I'll not say who that is in case I do a Putin and start WW3...

    I know who you're talking about... ;)




    ... It's Henderson, right?


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    #1484
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,459 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    .ak wrote: »
    I know who you're talking about... ;)




    ... It's Henderson, right?
    He means Sexton.


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    #1485
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,190 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    bilston wrote:
    One thing is for sure, he isn't the most overrated or overhyped player on this MB...I'll not say who that is in case I do a Putin and start WW3...

    Say it! I need entertainment!


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    #1486
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,758 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Buer wrote: »
    Say it! I need entertainment!

    I don't have the stomach for the fight right now! Maybe after dinner!


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    #1487
    19543261
    Registered Users Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭19543261


    England
    awec wrote: »
    POM is a better player than Murphy. There is no question about that.

    How is he better? Genuinely interested.


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    #1488
    Bridge93
    Registered Users Posts: 7,018 ✭✭✭Bridge93


    England
    100 pages on a match thread. Not a bad effort.


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    #1489
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users Posts: 4,444 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    awec wrote: »
    The entire game of rugby cannot be condensed down to just looking at stats.

    POM is a better player than Murphy. There is no question about that.

    That's a little like sticking your fingers in your ears and going la-la-la-la rather than making your point.

    For me, their positions they are best in are different, so hard to compare. As players they are both top notch now, with JM seeming to continue to improve. There are certainly options there for different backrows for different challenges, I can see how POM would not get in a back row that JM is in, for example if SOB not available


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    #1490
    timaru89
    Registered Users Posts: 266 ✭✭timaru89


    awec wrote: »
    He is a far better 6 than lock but Ireland play him at lock. IMO he is a better 6 than Ruddock, there's not much between them and I'm just backing him cause he plays for Ulster. :)

    Did Henderson not start at 6 against Italy last year? Think he came on for PO'M at 6 in a few of the other games as well


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    #1491
    English Lurker
    Registered Users Posts: 609 ✭✭✭English Lurker


    Swiwi. wrote: »
    Ulster fans not allowed to reply, but is it just me, or is Henderson not currently a tad over-rated on this forum? I'm not saying he's not good, because he is, but some posters would have you believe he's simply amazing. I think he's better adding impact from the bench but there is no way I would drop POM or Ruddock from starting 6 to make way for Henderson at the moment.

    A tad maybe.

    Henderson seems to have the ability to do things other players simply can't do. In an international game where more and more players can be defined as "Won't make a mistake 9 times out of 10, will punish one if made", Henderson stands out for me in that an opponent can do pretty much everything right against him and be left flat on his buttocks wondering what the hell was that.

    How the rest of his game goes at international level goes in terms of doing the small things again and again error free, that's unproven, and he shouldn't be talked up too much until he does that I guess. But he's done reasonable jobs of playing the 80 minutes last I saw him doing that in a green shirt.

    I'd love to hear Joe's thoughts on Henderson. My guess is that Schmidt is a) grooming him as POC's heir and b) unwilling to risk one of his few fit locks by sticking him in the back row for 80 minutes. Hard to say POC/Toner should be broken up atm. But there's almost certainly more to it, I'd love to hear it as he's arguably got as much raw talent as anyone in the 6N. May the gods help all non-Irish if Joe gets what he wants out of him.


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    #1492
    jacothelad
    Registered Users Posts: 5,911 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    bilston wrote: »
    In fact I will comment to say that I don't think he is overrated in that I don't think anyone is saying anything else other than he has the potential to be a very good player and more. I don't think anyone, including Ulster fans, thinks he should be starting at the minute while everyone else is available.

    One thing is for sure, he isn't the most overrated or overhyped player on this MB...I'll not say who that is in case I do a Putin and start WW3...

    Yes, there should be zebo tolerance of that sort of thing.......:D


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    #1493
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Mahatma Geansai wrote: »
    POM is one of our most important players.

    If we can manage without Heaslip, and we can manage without SOB, we sure as hell can manage without POM. Murray and Sexton are our most important players by an absolute country mile, POM isn't even close to them.


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    #1494
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    English Lurker wrote: »
    Henderson seems to have the ability to do things other players simply can't do.

    Does he though ?

    This is the type of statement Henderson seems to attract, but beats me why.
    Decent player, promising player. But I cant say I have seen him do anything so remarkable yet to merit notes of him being a really special prospect, let alone someone already doing stuff a level above everybody else.


    (or have I fallen for the wind-up in the above post? Red faced if so...:o)


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    #1495
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    Does he though ?

    This is the type of statement Henderson seems to attract, but beats me why.
    Decent player, promising player. But I cant say I have seen him do anything so remarkable yet to merit notes of him being a really special prospect, let alone someone already doing stuff a level above everybody else.


    (or have I fallen for the wind-up in the above post? Red faced if so...:o)

    I think he's probably the strongest/most powerful player we have. It's a raw power that we have yet to harness. You just need to look at the recent cameos and clear outs he's had to see that, and then you see what he's capable of in twickenham against sarries. Sob said he's the most powerful player he's trained with too. So it's easy to see why he attracts those sort of comments.


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    #1496
    Hurk
    Registered Users Posts: 115 ✭✭Hurk


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    Does he though ?

    This is the type of statement Henderson seems to attract, but beats me why.
    Decent player, promising player. But I cant say I have seen him do anything so remarkable yet to merit notes of him being a really special prospect, let alone someone already doing stuff a level above everybody else.


    (or have I fallen for the wind-up in the above post? Red faced if so...:o)

    I think it's mostly his power. When Sean O' Brien is describing someone as the most powerful player in the country, it's pretty insane.

    This is my go to Henderson clip, and I'd say we'll see plenty more of it in the coming years. Can you imagine what he'll be like when he gets old man strength?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibS93sanGZc


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    #1497
    English Lurker
    Registered Users Posts: 609 ✭✭✭English Lurker


    No wind up.

    I am genuinely struggling to think of too many other players in northern rugby who could do exactly what he did in the video Hurk posted. To evade the first two defenders through footwork and then completely obliterate an international lock with the hand-off? It's a very rare combination of agility and power, particularly in a guy who's 6'6". And it's not like it's an isolated incident either. Just a freakishly gifted athlete with freakish abilities as a result.


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    #1498
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    English Lurker wrote: »
    No wind up.

    I am genuinely struggling to think of too many other players in northern rugby who could do exactly what he did in the video Hurk posted. To evade the first two defenders through footwork and then completely obliterate an international lock with the hand-off? It's a very rare combination of agility and power, particularly in a guy who's 6'6". And it's not like it's an isolated incident either. Just a freakishly gifted athlete with freakish abilities as a result.

    His body composition is a little unusual, he carries a lot of weight in his upper legs, hips and core and has enough power in his upper body and a good enough understanding of how to use his frame that he can generate seemingly massive feats of strength with fends and hand offs. Have seen him do it plenty and thought - how is he getting so much power from one arm, but it's his lower and mid frame that is delivering the drive, he just naturally knows how to anchor that to allow him a massive fend and push.


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    #1499
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,758 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    Does he though ?

    This is the type of statement Henderson seems to attract, but beats me why.
    Decent player, promising player. But I cant say I have seen him do anything so remarkable yet to merit notes of him being a really special prospect, let alone someone already doing stuff a level above everybody else.


    (or have I fallen for the wind-up in the above post? Red faced if so...:o)

    Well he can certainly do a lot that most other Ulster forwards can't do.

    He can destroy oppositions rucks, he carries well, even if he doesn't make a clean break he is taking 2/3 defenders with him, he can offload in the tackle which is handy when youbare sucking in defenders, he is an excellent lineout option and with his power he is invaluable in the maul, he is very good in the tackle too. He also seems to have added the ability to jackal at the breakdown as well since his injury, although given he is 6'6" this will always be a bonus with him.

    I suppose Henderson is a bit like Paddy Jackson, all I can say is watch Ulster with those two and then watch them without them and you'll see exactly what they bring.

    Of course from a test rugby perspective Henderson still has a lot to prove but he has always made a positive contribution when he has come off the bench so far in his career. He usually comes on when Ireland are ahead and defending a lead so it is usually his defensive efforts that we get to see.


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    #1500
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    Deleted User wrote: »
    His body composition is a little unusual, he carries a lot of weight in his upper legs, hips and core and has enough power in his upper body and a good enough understanding of how to use his frame that he can generate seemingly massive feats of strength with fends and hand offs. Have seen him do it plenty and thought - how is he getting so much power from one arm, but it's his lower and mid frame that is delivering the drive, he just naturally knows how to anchor that to allow him a massive fend and push.

    A brilliant prospect. Obviously needs some time with Leinster to become the finished article. :)


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    #1501
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,758 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    The interesting thing about Henderson is that Ireland need to replace O'Connell but Ulster need to replace Ferris. I hear what awec is saying about Henderson playing 6, personally I think he can play either to good effect, butnif he replaces O'Connell he could go on to win 100+ caps, if he centres in on 6 then he is up against O'Mahony and Ruddock both of whom will be arpund for quite some time.

    The best use of Ireland's resources is for him to play lock, the best use of Ulster's resources is for him to play 6. It's fine at the moment but come next season I could see the IRFU pushing for a permanent move to the engine room.

    Edit - alternatively the IRFU should let us sign a WC blindside flanker....


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