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Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)
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Saw that on the Galway Advertiser this morning...
http://edition.pagesuite-professional.co.uk//launch.aspx?pbid=a2fc81f2-0ccf-4dbf-aca1-00bedf4bde35 It's on page two.0 -
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I read that too. I see IE are proposing to run an inspection car down the route to protect ownership, I assume they mean a Land Rover or Mule RRV seeing as much of the track is buried or lost! Other than that, WOT are still living in a fairy tale land if they think it will re-open for freight.0
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More coverage on page 2 of this weeks Galway Advertiser about Irish Rail comments at Oireachtas committee meeting this week http://edition.pagesuite-professional.co.uk//launch.aspx?pbid=a2fc81f2-0ccf-4dbf-aca1-00bedf4bde350
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Here's a paragraph from that link that says it all.
"Frank Dawson of West on Track stated that “the true potential of rail freight in Ireland is untapped” and noted that it would cost €25-30m to reinstate the railway line from Athenry to Claremorris, allowing the decongestion of the existing Inter-City route from Claremorris to Athlone."
!!!!!!!
The 'decongestion' of the Claremorris-Athlone route????
Elsewhere in the debate, they spoke of the seven goods trains a week that come out of Ballina. How congested is that?
A huge dose of reality needs to be injected into this abject nonsense, and I'm amazed that the chair of the oireachtas committee didn't run the whole lot of them out of the place, with all the fantasy stuff that was being peddled as facts. Maybe he knows something we don't, but to describe the claremorris-athlone line as congested is just so far off the wall as to be laughable.
Irish rail could double the amount of freight on that route, and nobody would notice, but what chance is there of that happening? If they get a change to freight, the best they can hope hope for would be ten or twenty percent -- one more train in tonnage terms but in reality an extra wagon on existing trains.
The freight being hauled around the north west doesn't translate easily to rail, most of it is unsuited to rail. For instance, will the collection of milk from farms be done by railway? The delivery of concrete to building sites? The distribution of food to supermarkets? The distribution of beer to pubs, or TVs to electrical shops?
Most of our freight in rural ireland is part of the supply chain or lies in the distributive sector, and can't be measured in the context of planning for rail freight infrastructure. A look at the kinds of trucks on the road says a lot -- mostly curtainsiders or tail lift rigids. Not a lot of containers.
The chair of the committee bent over backwards to pander to this nonsense this week; he shouldn't encourage them, even if they're neighbours. This committee is supposed to be part of our legislative process, not a get-together of a little gang of pub pals talking sh* te in Claremorris.0 -
Corky I had seen that, it was a WOT based report of the meeting, however the wee footnote on one paragraph is the one that catches the eye:Although Mr. Cunningham did acknowledge an interim green route might be one option for the Western Rail Corridor the clear emphasis was on its future use as a rail route.
What Mr. Cunningham actually said, and the meeting was webcast - although transcript has not yet been posted up was this:“The Company (Irish Rail) is open to non operational lines being developed for alternative uses as long as there is an understanding that they can revert to operational use in the future” - Don Cunningham Irish Rail speaking at Oireachtas committee on March 4th 2015
Now lets compare Mr Cunninghams quote with the comments made by Paschal donohoe in an email in November 2014 to Sligo Mayo Greenway campaigner Brendan Quinn!“that it is the Department's view that the construction of a greenway along the route of the disused rail line will protect the integrity of the line in the event of any possible future reopening as an operational line.” - Paschal donohoe in email to Brendan Quinn in November 2015
Me thinks Mr. Cunningham is taking on board the departmental view don't you?0 -
https://irishrailwaydevelopments.wordpress.com/2015/03/05/west-on-track-announce-new-freight-initiative-at-claremorris/In 2014 over 1000 chartered freight trains operated to and from Mayo and the Ports of Waterford and Dublin.0
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i think many people here are so caught up in the greenway argument they see all other options as somehow negative.
Irish Rail actually has an increasing issue of congestion especially over single track intercity routes. They are actually carrying more intercity passengers then ever before in the railways history and they are carrying them on much faster trains , running more frequently . This causes increasing issues with slow freight freight trains, especially since many freight loops and sidings are now removed. The issues of running engines around at new bridge etc to access the waterford line is a classic case. Freight only routes are very useful , given the restrictive main line rail network
This issues has become especially acute in the UK, where suitable freight train paths are now a ,major deterrent to freight growth .
Balllina to Foynes is a classic usage case, as Foynes is actively investigating reuse of the port rail infrastructure , Ballina waterford would definitely benefit from having freight only paths , down the west coast and across Limerick to waterford instead of taking up resources on main intercity space
Im not saying that it is likely to happen, but theres a lot of convenient ignorance of rail operations being displayed here.0 -
no-one spends €25 to €30 million on a diversionary route (not passed for passenger trains) in case there is an incident on the existing line. Rather they would postpone the traffic or take it by road.
I'm struggling to see what traffic a freight hub at Claremorris would attract that isn't already operating out of Ballina.0 -
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i think many people here are so caught up in the greenway argument they see all other options as somehow negative.
Irish Rail actually has an increasing issue of congestion especially over single track intercity routes. They are actually carrying more intercity passengers then ever before in the railways history and they are carrying them on much faster trains , running more frequently . This causes increasing issues with slow freight freight trains, especially since many freight loops and sidings are now removed. The issues of running engines around at new bridge etc to access the waterford line is a classic case. Freight only routes are very useful , given the restrictive main line rail network
This issues has become especially acute in the UK, where suitable freight train paths are now a ,major deterrent to freight growth .
Balllina to Foynes is a classic usage case, as Foynes is actively investigating reuse of the port rail infrastructure , Ballina waterford would definitely benefit from having freight only paths , down the west coast and across Limerick to waterford instead of taking up resources on main intercity space
Im not saying that it is likely to happen, but theres a lot of convenient ignorance of rail operations being displayed here.
I agree freight only routes are usueful and cheap, but can the nation afford to pay for this unless there is a lot of extra traffic on offer?
Th uK is an entirely different case, and a total red herring in an Irish context
Foynes is one matter, that might come about on the back of a new flow of ore to the port, and I hope it does...there is no likelihood imo of extra traffic emerging to justify the route through Tuam ,grasping at straws really on the part of WoT0 -
I agree freight only routes are usueful and cheap, but can the nation afford to pay for this unless there is a lot of extra traffic on offer?
of course, one could extend that argument to many things including the whole rail network , it boils down to a matter of public policy in the end0 -
no-one spends €25 to €30 million on a diversionary route (not passed for passenger trains) in case there is an incident on the existing line. Rather they would postpone the traffic or take it by road.
I'm struggling to see what traffic a freight hub at Claremorris would attract that isn't already operating out of Ballina.
It was traditionally a major rail freight depot and I hear from certain sections that Guinness might be evaluating returning some distribution to rail too as there are inefficiencies in the road system.
Ballina is a result of dynamic local management, it shows what can be done if you have the smarts and the motivation0 -
Do you really think Guinness would ship beer to Claremorris and then down the WRC to Tuam and Galway? Whatever economic sense a hub at Claremorris may make,(and quite possibly it does given extra freight to there could be piggybacked onto the Ballina operation) it wont make any sense to invest in rebuilding the WRC0
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i think many people here are so caught up in the greenway argument they see all other options as somehow negative.
Irish Rail actually has an increasing issue of congestion especially over single track intercity routes. They are actually carrying more intercity passengers then ever before in the railways history and they are carrying them on much faster trains , running more frequently . This causes increasing issues with slow freight freight trains, especially since many freight loops and sidings are now removed. The issues of running engines around at new bridge etc to access the waterford line is a classic case. Freight only routes are very useful , given the restrictive main line rail network
This issues has become especially acute in the UK, where suitable freight train paths are now a ,major deterrent to freight growth .
Balllina to Foynes is a classic usage case, as Foynes is actively investigating reuse of the port rail infrastructure , Ballina waterford would definitely benefit from having freight only paths , down the west coast and across Limerick to waterford instead of taking up resources on main intercity space
Im not saying that it is likely to happen, but theres a lot of convenient ignorance of rail operations being displayed here.0 -
It was traditionally a major rail freight depot and I hear from certain sections that Guinness might be evaluating returning some distribution to rail too as there are inefficiencies in the road system.
Ballina is a result of dynamic local management, it shows what can be done if you have the smarts and the motivation
Ballina freight happened because there were people who challenged the consensus on railfreight and now IÉ make money out of it. All railfreight is profitable according to IÉ.
I think it's well worth the investigation into the further possibilities of railfreight.0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »If the issue is congestion on the existing network, surely the €25-30m required to reopen the line from Athenry to Claremorris would be better spent on improvements to the existing network (which would benefit both freight and passenger services) rather than opening a new line (which incurs additional ongoing maintenance costs) for a couple of freight trains a day? For that money you could create a few passing loops and increase speeds on some sections of existing trafficked lines.
You're making assumptions based on the current traffic levels. There are more potential freight opportunities out there, especially with getting the Foynes like up and running.
All railway networks plan for the future rather than what is happening right now.0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »If the issue is congestion on the existing network, surely the €25-30m required to reopen the line from Athenry to Claremorris would be better spent on improvements to the existing network (which would benefit both freight and passenger services) rather than opening a new line (which incurs additional ongoing maintenance costs) for a couple of freight trains a day? For that money you could create a few passing loops and increase speeds on some sections of existing trafficked lines.
Its a call, there are benefits to freight only lines as they can be run considerably cheaper then passenger lines.
Little can easily be done to create more low speed capacity on existing inter urban single track lines as IR is experiencing , other then perhaps double tracking them. ( as is now happening in the UK). Most of irelands rail network was built to accommodate low speed freight traffic rather then passenger traffic and therefore its badly designed for high capacity high speed & frequency as required by modern commuting.
As a result of short sightedness in IR, there are also opportunities for rail connected ports like Foynes and Waterford to actually take particular advantage of that fact as some major ports like cork , will never be effectively reconnected to the national rail network.
Its a long shot, but if freight can be justified I see it having a lot of advantages to have a WRC freight only connection to the NW.0 -
It was traditionally a major rail freight depot and I hear from certain sections that Guinness might be evaluating returning some distribution to rail too as there are inefficiencies in the road system.
Ballina is a result of dynamic local management, it shows what can be done if you have the smarts and the motivation
Ballina freight line is due entirely to one customer. Coca-Cola. It has nothing to do with "dynamic" irish rail management.
The phrase "hear from certain sections" is rather like someone saying "I heard a bloke down the pub say this"
The greenway campaigners are not anti rail,but they are pragmatic - if a railway and greenway could be accomodated on the route so be it, the simple truth is there is not an overwhelming case for the railway to re-open and in this day and age for any capital project to go ahead an overwhelming case has to be made. However there is a very strong case to utilise the route as a greenway - we all know this. On economic grounds a greenway from Collooney to Athenry would cost about 7 million and probably bring that much in tourism and leisure spend in the first two years. A railway? we really don't know the capital cost, but it would cost a lot to subvent as well as build. The economic argument does not exist. Nobody is going to sign off on a capital project for a freight only railway line for an apparent demand from companies that don't exist yet. Get used to it. It's not going to happen.0 -
Ballina freight line is due entirely to one customer. Coca-Cola. It has nothing to do with "dynamic" irish rail management.
The phrase "hear from certain sections" is rather like someone saying "I heard a bloke down the pub say this"
The greenway campaigners are not anti rail,but they are pragmatic - if a railway and greenway could be accomodated on the route so be it, the simple truth is there is not an overwhelming case for the railway to re-open and in this day and age for any capital project to go ahead an overwhelming case has to be made. However there is a very strong case to utilise the route as a greenway - we all know this. On economic grounds a greenway from Collooney to Athenry would cost about 7 million and probably bring that much in tourism and leisure spend in the first two years. A railway? we really don't know the capital cost, but it would cost a lot to subvent as well as build. The economic argument does not exist. Nobody is going to sign off on a capital project for a freight only railway line for an apparent demand from companies that don't exist yet. Get used to it. It's not going to happen.
Ballina has liner trains, timber trains, concentrate trains. Its a beacon for what could be done elsewhere in irish rail, where it not for the terrible strategic decision taken by IR.
Its primarily and fore mostly a rail line, thats what greenway campaigners must accept. If there is a possibility of it returning to active use , then thats what it should be used for.
running down rail infrastructure as an argument for a cycleway or walkway is a poor argument and zero sum game, however of course Ireland is famous for that sort of thing. If this thread is to be taken as a guide, then such supporters are in fact anti-rail, simply because they see a rail line as an easy target to get what they want.0 -
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Its primarily and fore mostly a rail line, thats what greenway campaigners must accept. If there is a possibility of it returning to active use , then thats what it should be used for.
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well your complaints shouldn't be directed at Greenway campaigners, it should be fired at the likes of Sligo and Mayo County councils who have done little to protect the route based on housing and commercial premises built on or near the line, or private driveways and roads tarmacced over the line
And please spare me what people must accept. Its a closed railway line that no longer has any reasonable expectation of ever re-opening due to economics and likely demand. The section north of Claremorris closed in the 1960s and that south of Claremorris in the 1970s. It's description as a "railway line" is somewhat imaginative. As it happens with regard to your comments" If there is a possibility of it returning to active use , then that's what it should be used for."
To paraphrase your tone of writing, this is the situation which the railway campaigners must accept. Hey ho on we go :pac:0 -
Lenton Lane wrote: »You're making assumptions based on the current traffic levels. There are more potential freight opportunities out there, especially with getting the Foynes like up and running.
All railway networks plan for the future rather than what is happening right now.Its a call, there are benefits to freight only lines as they can be run considerably cheaper then passenger lines.
Little can easily be done to create more low speed capacity on existing inter urban single track lines as IR is experiencing , other then perhaps double tracking them. ( as is now happening in the UK). Most of irelands rail network was built to accommodate low speed freight traffic rather then passenger traffic and therefore its badly designed for high capacity high speed & frequency as required by modern commuting.
As a result of short sightedness in IR, there are also opportunities for rail connected ports like Foynes and Waterford to actually take particular advantage of that fact as some major ports like cork , will never be effectively reconnected to the national rail network.
Its a long shot, but if freight can be justified I see it having a lot of advantages to have a WRC freight only connection to the NW.0 -
If re-instatement of this route would generate new freight traffic, wouldn't the existing routes already have generated it?0
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Pete_Cavan wrote: »I have no doubt that there is more potential freight opportunities out there, I seriously doubt that there is enough potential freight traffic in Mayo which requires a specific rail connection to Foynes Port only (i.e. for which Dublin or Waterford do not suffice) to justify spending €25m. And thats without including the cost of reinstating the line from Limerick to Foynes which will also be required.
The WRC is not freight only, Limerick - Athenry has passenger services. Not really sure what the point here is, the potential of freight traffic in general is a separate matter, in relation to Athenry - Claremorris, only freight from Mayo or northern Galway to Foynes is relevant, freight to other ports can and is served on the existing network.
Limerick Foynes , doesn't require much reinstatement its basically usable , its needs some bridge modifications etc
I made the point that the current interurban rail network is very unsuited now to freight, high speed more frequent running, clogged approaches to Dublin, lack of loops, sidings and the comparably slow sped of many freight trains, means that train paths for freight are awkward and sometimes problematic, especially during daylight hours. IR have , in my mind , made very strategic errors in removing train paths suitable for freight
Freight only ( or very lightly used passenger ) lines especially sligo-limerick-waterford would have an advantage of being available for freight paths without any significant rail disruption , ( though Limerick LJ is somewhat of an issue)0 -
such supporters are in fact anti-rail
1. Ye up in Dublin are agin us in the Wesht,
and, for those in the West,
2. Anyone that doesn't support the WRC is anti-rail.
One tends to hear less of argument 1 these days becuase, I suspect, WOT realised it made them sound like eejits, and as for argument 2, people like myself are not anti-rail, but are rather against large amount of captial expenditure, and significant amounts of ongoing current expenditure, being used to subvent trains meandering slowly around the country carrying eight (or is it nine?) passengers.
The new emphasis on freight also suggests to me that WOT are now realising that there is no traction to be gained from the passengers argument (since there are no passengers) and are desperately trying to use the freight argument instead.
The statistic they quoted is laughable - 1000 freight trains in 2014. That's (less than) three freight trains a day. Sounds like congestion to me, alright :rolleyes:0 -
Classic WOT argument (one of two).
1. Ye up in Dublin are agin us in the Wesht,
and, for those in the West,
2. Anyone that doesn't support the WRC is anti-rail.
One tends to hear less of argument 1 these days becuase, I suspect, WOT realised it made them sound like eejits, and as for argument 2, people like myself are not anti-rail, but are rather against large amount of captial expenditure, and significant amounts of ongoing current expenditure, being used to subvent trains meandering slowly around the country carrying eight (or is it nine?) passengers.
The new emphasis on freight also suggests to me that WOT are now realising that there is no traction to be gained from the passengers argument (since there are no passengers) and are desperately trying to use the freight argument instead.
The statistic they quoted is laughable - 1000 freight trains in 2014. That's (less than) three freight trains a day. Sounds like congestion to me, alright :rolleyes:
No more then then Greenway supporters , I support WOT as an advocacy group, I have serious differences on the value of WRC then they do, but I support their right to advocate solutions , no more then I do greenway supporters .
The fact is it is a piece of rail infrastructure thats the fact foremost.
unless you understand freight movements and train paths, you will not understand how freight congestion occurs , particularly in the Irish rail network as it is constructed and operated today. Problems have arisen repeatedly in freight movements in the past m resulting in nighttime movements, which are often unsuited to customer demand or operational costs.etc
All advocacy groups inflate numbers and use top of the curve numbers etc. thats to be expected. WRC isn't a failure merely because it didn't hit the high end numbers, whats actually a great success, is the recent initiative that putting on more frequent trains and offering concession fares dramatically increased usage, its a lesson IR could utilise elsewhere on under-utilised linesnd significant amounts of ongoing current expenditure, being used to subvent trains meandering slowly around the country carrying eight (or is it nine?) passengers.
Rather then parrot nonsense , you might examine why in certain circumstances IR has terrible loading patterns on certain lines. The WRC is actually and example of what you can do if you actually run enough trains at useful times and with appropriate fares. They could usually do the same between Limerick and waterford for example.0 -
Limerick Foynes , doesn't require much reinstatement its basically usable , its needs some bridge modifications etc
I made the point that the current interurban rail network is very unsuited now to freight, high speed more frequent running, clogged approaches to Dublin, lack of loops, sidings and the comparably slow sped of many freight trains, means that train paths for freight are awkward and sometimes problematic, especially during daylight hours. IR have , in my mind , made very strategic errors in removing train paths suitable for freight
Freight only ( or very lightly used passenger ) lines especially sligo-limerick-waterford would have an advantage of being available for freight paths without any significant rail disruption , ( though Limerick LJ is somewhat of an issue)
If the issue is a lack of loops and sidings then surely the solution is to create more loops and sidings, which can surely be done for less than opening two lines at a cost of over €30m.
Also, there is no guarantee that the producers of the freight want to ship through Foynes.0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »If the issue is a lack of loops and sidings then surely the solution is to create more loops and sidings, which can surely be done for less than opening two lines at a cost of over €30m.
Also, there is no guarantee that the producers of the freight want to ship through Foynes.
I dont know enough about Foynes Port current revaluation of using its rail connections, They seem optimistic however that it will lead to the reopening of the junction
loops and sidings are only part of the problem in developing ( or redeveloping ) rail freight ) in Ireland. Changes in running speeds and track configurations, high capacity commuter etc have all made freight paths increasingly difficult. Its very difficult to mix high speed frequent passenger trains with long slow( er) freight trains. IR has for example a policy of moving to shorter faster more frequent services on all major interurban links, ( hourly 100mph services ). This is actually very very difficult on single track infrastructure and when you add slow freight it gets even worse.
There is a distinct advantage in having available alternative train paths for freight that allow more flexibility and hence better customer fit
Whether all this will happen, remains to be seen, IR is not currently a pro freight railway, at present it wont have any suitable locos within 10 years anyway0 -
significant amounts of ongoing current expenditure, being used to subvent trains meandering slowly around the country carrying eight (or is it nine?) passengers.Rather then parrot nonsense0
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