Church vs Humanist wedding

pwurple · 04-01-2015 10:00PM

Faith wrote: »

Humanism doesn't involve a spiritual aspect. You may be thinking of a spiritualist ceremony, pwurple

Oh my mistake... I thought they had a set of ethic and moral guidelines (fairly closely overlapping with christianity I thought!) Why not just use the registrar though?

lazygal · 04-01-2015 10:03PM

pwurple wrote: »

Oh my mistake... I thought they had a set of ethic and moral guidelines (fairly closely overlapping with christianity I thought!) Why not just use the registrar though?

See my post above. Hse ceremonies are limited in timing and content unlike humanist ones. We were able to meet our celebrant and discuss loads of things with him. We found the hse much less flexible and personal.

stinkle · 04-01-2015 10:06PM

Registrar is Mon-Fri only, with onsite ceremonies at set times (12.30 and 3/3.30 spring to mind from friends' experiences). Might not suit everyone. Humanism philosophy is basically dont be an arse while you're alive, there's probably no god/afterlife so do good for the sake of it, not cos you're terrified of some deity passing judgment.

lazygal · 04-01-2015 10:10PM

stinkle wrote: »

Registrar is Mon-Fri only, with onsite ceremonies at set times (12.30 and 3/3.30 spring to mind from friends' experiences). Might not suit everyone. Humanism philosophy is basically dont be an arse while you're alive, there's probably no god/afterlife so do good for the sake of it, not cos you're terrified of some deity passing judgment.

We couldn't get a Friday offsite ceremony at 330pm in Dublin for at least a year when we inquired. We went for a legal ceremony and a humanist big day as we didn't want a long engagement. Dublin can be very difficult to organise a civil ceremony off-site if you want a Friday.

stinkle · 04-01-2015 10:14PM

lazygal wrote: »

We couldn't get a Friday offsite ceremony at 330pm in Dublin for at least a year when we inquired. We went for a legal ceremony and a humanist big day as we didn't want a long engagement. Dublin can be very difficult to organise a civil ceremony off-site if you want a Friday.

Yeah we looked into that ourselves as humanists werent legal solemnisers during our initial plans, but were so much more flexible than HSE. Then they got legal recognition so it worked out ok and we had the Saturday wedding we preferred. Initial enquiries for reg office then our own humanist or registrar coming onsite was awkward enough, despite having around a year's notice.

pwurple · 04-01-2015 10:17PM

stinkle wrote: »

Humanism philosophy is basically dont be an arse while you're alive, there's probably no god/afterlife so do good for the sake of it, not cos you're terrified of some deity passing judgment.

Probably wouldn't be cool with OP's thinking that lying is ok then...

That service actually sounds fairly handy. I'm sure it suits OP. What about the pesky fiance though!

If it was me, I'd go have a chat with the local priest to see how old-school he is. Ours was one of the modern thinking guys, so he happily cut down the ceremony to exactly what we wanted. No mass at all, some non-religious readings, no church building, etc.

If OP could get the local church to accomdate him, it might be the compromise that works for all. They might not be on for it at all, some parishes are very stuck in their ways, but I'd consider it worth a shot.

lazygal · 04-01-2015 10:21PM

I've never heard of a priest agreeing to an off-site ceremony, and I've been to a lot of weddings given my current lifestage. I've been to a wedding conducted by a Celtic monk that had some religious elements. I know friends who've been told they have to attend mass for x number of weeks if they want a church wedding, have to do x premarriage course etc. If you don't really want a church wedding that's a lot to put up with.

Faith · 04-01-2015 10:22PM

pwurple wrote: »

Oh my mistake... I thought they had a set of ethic and moral guidelines (fairly closely overlapping with christianity I thought!) Why not just use the registrar though?

No, they're totally secular. From www.humanism.ie:

Humanism is a view of life that combines reason with compassion. It is based on a concern for humanity in general, and for human individuals in particular. It is for people who base their interpretation of existence on the evidence of the natural world and its evolution, and not on belief in the supernatural (theistic god, miracles, afterlife, revealed morality etc.)
...
Humanists embrace secular ethics believing in the common moral decencies of altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness and responsibility – essentially being ‘good without god’. A Humanist believes that the happiness of individuals and of humankind depends on people, rather than on religion and dogma.

A HSE ceremony is a fairly rigid, inflexible ceremony that follows specific guidelines and scripts (afaik anyway). As the others have said, they're only available at limited times in limited places.

A Humanist ceremony is totally flexible and customisable, and they're available every day at the location of your choosing.

iusedtoknow · 04-01-2015 10:23PM

We had a civil ceremony (necessary in Spain if not in a catholic church) on a Thursday followed by a humanist ceremony in the hotel grounds on the Saturday...with all the trimmings- wife's step father walked her down the aisle, she had a wedding dress on etc. We're both atheist (i probably go a bit further beyond atheism personally) and felt it would have been extremely hypocritical to marry in a church.

There was the whole 9 yards but was the least religious ceremony in the world. The wife's grandparents were horrified, but when we told them that we hadn't once been to church together, they got it. The officiant was a friend of us both that was heavily involved in the humanist movement in Spain. He did a great job - it was serious enough, but he also kept some parts light and breezy, and because he knew both of us was able to have it extremely personal.

pwurple · 04-01-2015 10:29PM

lazygal wrote: »

I've never heard of a priest agreeing to an off-site ceremony, and I've been to a lot of weddings given my current lifestage. I've been to a wedding conducted by a Celtic monk that had some religious elements. I know friends who've been told they have to attend mass for x number of weeks if they want a church wedding, have to do x premarriage course etc. If you don't really want a church wedding that's a lot to put up with.

Well, there's mine, and two of my brothers. So now you've heard of 3!

None of us did that premarriage craic either.

I think people literally just don't ask. "God is everywhere" was what our priest said.

lazygal · 04-01-2015 10:31PM

pwurple wrote: »

Well, there's mine, and two of my brothers. So now you've heard of 3!
None of us did that premarriage craic either.

I think people literally just don't ask. "God is everywhere" was what our priest said.

I think the problem is it is down to the parish and priest. I don't know anyone who didn't have to do the premarriage course and lots who had to go with a cap in hand approach. My friends who married in a COfI church had a lot of churchgoing to undertake.

pwurple · 04-01-2015 10:48PM

lazygal wrote: »

I think the problem is it is down to the parish and priest. I don't know anyone who didn't have to do the premarriage course and lots who had to go with a cap in hand approach. My friends who married in a COfI church had a lot of churchgoing to undertake.

It is at the discretion of the priest and parish, we had a fairly solid relationship with ours, I get on well with priests and find talking to them interesting... such a different life experience to my own, especially the missionaries. So that meant I wasn't shy about asking for what was possible, and they knew me well enough to understand we weren't being disingenuous.

We didn't investigate COI weddings, but I suspect it is stricter alright. We're sending our children to a COI school and the letters home so far are fairly full-on with the faith side of things.

Toots · 05-01-2015 01:43AM

obriendj wrote: »

No, the comments about the venue were not welcome.
It wasnt that she was looking for input just trying to include them and let them know how we are getting on. But we will be considering our options from now on.

The best phrases I ever learned when I was getting married are:

"That sounds interesting/nice, we'll have a look into that." and

"We're still deciding on that."

They'll get you out of a multitude of situations where people try to stick their oar in. Your best bet is not telling anyone which venue/cake/car/photographer etc you've chosen until it's booked and then there's nothing anyone can do about it anyway.

If your fiancée wants her parents to feel involved then she could text/phone/call in to them with updates as each thing is booked, so she's keeping them in the loop, but not giving them any opportunity to try and control your choices. I know a lot of the time the bride brings her mum to get the dress, and that's a fairly big deal, so hopefully that would stop the mum feeling too left out.

Regarding the ceremony, I know how you feel. I ended up having to kowtow to a church wedding when I really didn't want to. There was a huge row about it, and we nearly ended up breaking up about a month after we got engaged. In the end the church wedding was really nice, our priest was sound and he knew I wasn't religious and he was ok with it. I chose all the songs and readings in the ceremony. They were ones that meant something to us so it made the ceremony more about us as a couple instead of about religion.

obriendj · 05-01-2015 12:58PM

Toots wrote: »

The best phrases I ever learned when I was getting married are:

"That sounds interesting/nice, we'll have a look into that." and

"We're still deciding on that."

They'll get you out of a multitude of situations where people try to stick their oar in. Your best bet is not telling anyone which venue/cake/car/photographer etc you've chosen until it's booked and then there's nothing anyone can do about it anyway.

If your fiancée wants her parents to feel involved then she could text/phone/call in to them with updates as each thing is booked, so she's keeping them in the loop, but not giving them any opportunity to try and control your choices. I know a lot of the time the bride brings her mum to get the dress, and that's a fairly big deal, so hopefully that would stop the mum feeling too left out.

Regarding the ceremony, I know how you feel. I ended up having to kowtow to a church wedding when I really didn't want to. There was a huge row about it, and we nearly ended up breaking up about a month after we got engaged. In the end the church wedding was really nice, our priest was sound and he knew I wasn't religious and he was ok with it. I chose all the songs and readings in the ceremony. They were ones that meant something to us so it made the ceremony more about us as a couple instead of about religion.

Glad I am not the only one in this boat.
But at the risk of breaking up, I will probably end up doing the same. It sounds like you had a approachable easy-going priest which does help. Choosing the readings is a good idea too. I suppose it depends on the priest but did the reading have to come from the bible is there room to have the second one based on something relevant to today rather than a letter St. Paul sent to the Corinthians.

But thanks for the advice on what to say when asked about the event.
Can I ask was your OH adamant on having a church or was it something that she was expected to do?

obriendj · 05-01-2015 01:15PM

Faith wrote: »

Honestly, this is bigger than the church v humanist discussion. I think this happens to most couples a while into the engagement. You both need to sit down and discuss what level of involvement you want others to have. If you have people who are likely to try to railroad you, you need to be sure to always present a united front. Including people is all well and good, but only as long as they respect the boundaries.

You are right with some more great advice.

Thanks

Toots · 05-01-2015 06:57PM

obriendj wrote: »

Glad I am not the only one in this boat.
But at the risk of breaking up, I will probably end up doing the same. It sounds like you had a approachable easy-going priest which does help. Choosing the readings is a good idea too. I suppose it depends on the priest but did the reading have to come from the bible is there room to have the second one based on something relevant to today rather than a letter St. Paul sent to the Corinthians.

The readings were from the bible, but I went through a load of ones and chose ones I liked that weren't overly 'preachy' if you get me. I can't remember exactly which ones they were (I'm a disgrace, I only got married in 2010) I'll see if I can dig out one of my mass booklets and check. For the music we had a string quartet so it gave me a bit of flexibility with the music because pretty much everything sounded classy when you have it played by one of those. I walked up the aisle to a Led Zeppelin song

But thanks for the advice on what to say when asked about the event.
Can I ask was your OH adamant on having a church or was it something that she was expected to do?

Well my OH is a "he", I was the bride. It was a bit of both really. His family are very religious (except his dad) and a lot of them would be in mass every sunday. His mum is very involved in our local church. My hubby used to be one of those who'd go to mass on easter and christmas, and then in between times when there was a wedding/funeral/christening.

Before we got engaged, we'd chatted a bit about what we'd do about a ceremony, and we'd loosely argeed that it would be a civil ceremony at the venue, and then a blessing afterwards. And then when we got engaged he was asking his mum how we'd go about getting a priest for a blessing and she wasn't impressed and told him that we wouldn't really be married unless we had it in a church blah blah blah. So of course, he came home and started spouting all this, and we ended up having a huge row and he told me that he'd never see us as being properly married unless we were married in the eyes of god, and if we weren't getting married in a church, that we might as well stay the way we were. After much tears and arguing, I caved. I sat down and had a think about which I wanted more - to not get married in a church, or to get married to my husband. Also my mum pointed out that it'd be easier to have a church wedding on a saturday, so that was one advantage.

I know all of this sounds awful, but will say that my wedding day was one of the best days of my life (tied in first place with the day my son was born) and I'm very happily married. I wouldn't change anything.

obriendj · 06-01-2015 11:10AM

Toots wrote: »

I walked up the aisle to a Led Zeppelin song

Class

Toots wrote: »

Well my OH is a "he", I was the bride.

Oops sorry for assuming

But I don't think it sounds awful, it sounds like you both had a frank discussion and you choice to "give in" was one of the best decisions you ever made

Thanks Toots

Toots · 06-01-2015 01:31PM

You're welcome! And good luck with all the planning, it can be stressful but it's all worth it in the end!

An Bhanríon · 06-01-2015 01:38PM

Best of luck with your decision on this. I would have to agree with the others who say not to tell anyone anything about your plans until they are made. Part of organising a wedding is managing your families' and friends' expectations!

Regarding a church wedding, we had one although we are not madly religious. Our main reason was that we knew a priest we really liked and he was prepared to do our wedding. It also made our mothers happy (although neiither of them ever said anything - they are not the interfering types, thank God!).

What I will say is that our Catholic mass and wedding ceremony was a most joyful occassion. It totally flew, not just for us but for the congregation too. We chose hymns that lots of those attending would know and everyone joined in (we had no choir or singer). There was lots of laughter and it was a most relaxed affair.

As I was putting the mass booklet together I read some of the stuff the priest had given us about Catholic marriage and I found it very interesting. People always emphasise the stuff about sex before marriage and all that. What I found interesting is that there is a big emphasis on the couple coming to get married as equals, also and the fact that it is the couple who marry each other and that the priest is just a facilitator, i.e. he does not pronounce you man and wife, you do that yourselves. I have to say I really liked that.

Anyway, enough about my wedding ceremony. Sit down with your fiancée and work out what you would like for your day. They are a lot more possibilities to a church wedding than you might think... and best of luck with the interfering family members - the joys!

obriendj · 05-03-2015 11:48AM

Hi again folks

Since I last posted there has been some more development.

About 5 weeks ago we were asked down to the in-laws for a chat. I presumed it would be about the church situation but hoped it wouldn't.

It was agreed beforehand that we would have a church ceremony but instead of a priest, have a deacon do the ceremony. It was a compromise that myself and the OH decided on. However the In-Laws got wind of this and wanted to discuss.

The discussion was not a pleasant event. and without going into too many details it ended with both of them saying they wont go to the wedding unless it is in a certain church and with a priest.

Since then its been a living nightmare. Her folks haven't been in touch in weeks until her mother rang yesterday to say that they are only asking for 1 hour from the day and why is she being so mean to them and this is not how they raised her etc.

Of the people I have spoken to about this, they seem to say that you can please everyone and if i really care if its with a priest or not. (I do care but i know that it will probably be a priest in the end) But I won't compromise again unless there is some sort of compromise from the in-laws.

This has been really hard so maybe some impartial advise?
Thanks Boards

rainbow kirby · 05-03-2015 11:54AM

Threaten to elope. Her mother is being a selfish wagon - at the end of the day it is not her wedding and she does not have the right to guilt-trip her daughter until she gets what she wants.

obriendj · 05-03-2015 12:04PM

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Threaten to elope. Her mother is being a selfish wagon - at the end of the day it is not her wedding and she does not have the right to guilt-trip her daughter until she gets what she wants.

The thing is I don't think the threat like that would be any use. They say they wont go unless its what they want. it is selfishness in its highest form.

Is there anyone who thinks that we should just give in to their demands?

fits · 05-03-2015 12:09PM

obriendj wrote: »

The thing is I don't think the threat like that would be any use. They say they wont go unless its what they want. it is selfishness in its highest form.

Is there anyone who thinks that we should just give in to their demands?

Oh goodness. I just dont know what i would do in your situation. Probably elope. Im really sorry. We had rocky times with the parents too and they still arent overjoyed.

lazygal · 05-03-2015 12:19PM

I would call their bluff. I have heard of this happen so many times, and the parents always turn up when they realise no one is giving them their own way. I would make the plans that suit your and your partner and simply proceed as normal. Let them know the time and place and tell them while you understand they might not be able to attend, this is when and where the wedding is taking place and you'll be delighted to see them if they can make it.

And stop pandering to them. You are adults who are about to start your own family unit, regardless of their wishes. Trust me, me and my now husband are reaping the benefits of telling our parents to back off in certain elements of our wedding planning now we have children. We aren't seen as pushovers who'll give into pressure for a quiet life. There is no way we'd have started out married life in a ceremony we didn't want because any of our parents had a hissy fit about who married us. I wouldn't elope unless you want to.

flikflak · 05-03-2015 12:24PM

As far as I can see you were willing to compromise by going with the church wedding albeit with a different celebrant. That shows you were willing to take their concerns on board and try to find a way round it that suited everyone.

If they could not acknowledge the fact that you had already decided to compromise and started laying down demands then I`m afraid IMO they have had their last chance to have any input into the wedding.

If it were me I would now go ahead with my own plans of what me and the OH want to do. They will come in the end unless they are very very stubborn.

You and your OH are adults who have the right to choose how you get married without having to deal with these child like tantrums from adult members of your family.

It might be a case of explaining that as there was no compromised reached we are not willing to be blackmailed into doing something we don't want to do.

Maybe the in laws need a bit of tough love. By this I mean having an explanation ready of why you have chosen to have your day the way you want it, you had suggested a compromise which was shut down, they then issued threats which meant you are now doing things your own way and that they are more than welcome to have some input into the proceedings provided they respect your wishes.

How can parents behave this way? Ok, they are your children but they are also adults who have gone out into the world with their own mind and made their own way. They now have to treat you like adults not 7 year old children. It sometimes takes a situation like this to show parents that you are now an adult going on to a new life and creating a family of your own and that you will do things in your own unique way the same way they had chance to when they got married. It might cause a bit of friction in the short term but I think it lays down boundaries for the future.

pwurple · 05-03-2015 01:11PM

Stick to your guns, and possibly divide and conquer?

We had a similar situation for our wedding, we had the priest, but not the building... you're doing the building but not the priest. My parents lost the plot over it. Threatened to not to go if we didn't change our mind and do it their way.

I spoke to my mum about it on her own, persuaded her around, and set her to work on my dad. All worked out in the end.

obriendj · 05-03-2015 01:18PM

flikflak wrote: »

If it were me I would now go ahead with my own plans of what me and the OH want to do. They will come in the end unless they are very very stubborn.

It might be hard to call their bluff, as if there is a chance that they won't make it - it will be heart breaking for OH.

flikflak wrote: »

It might be a case of explaining that as there was no compromised reached we are not willing to be blackmailed into doing something we don't want to do.

my OH agreed to we compromise, but shes knows if i was indifferent to the situation she would choose a church with priest. So it seems that they are trying to latch on to that and convince her it is what she always wanted. you know make out that I am leading her astray

flikflak wrote: »

How can parents behave this way?

I don't know. I really don't.

lazygal · 05-03-2015 01:35PM

I would almost guarantee they will turn up. Who wants to be known as the parents who boycotted their child's wedding because the celebrant or ceremony didn't align with what they wanted? Why pander to them any more? I would advise your partner to leave this for the moment, and not bother about them for a while. Don't bring stress on yourselves by trying to please them any more than you have already. Leave them severely alone for a few weeks.

obriendj · 05-03-2015 01:41PM

pwurple wrote: »

Stick to your guns, and possibly divide and conquer?

We had a similar situation for our wedding, we had the priest, but not the building... you're doing the building but not the priest. My parents lost the plot over it. Threatened to not to go if we didn't change our mind and do it their way.

I spoke to my mum about it on her own, persuaded her around, and set her to work on my dad. All worked out in the end.

I think for this situation they are thinking the same. Convince her then get her to convince me.

All this is probably mute as it will probably be a priest but like i said not without a compromise on their side.

It just boils my blood how unreasonable they are being. I know that they are thinking the exact same thing as its our wedding it should be us that are right. But is it about being right or wrong at this stage?

obriendj · 05-03-2015 01:44PM

lazygal wrote: »

I would almost guarantee they will turn up. Who wants to be known as the parents who boycotted their child's wedding because the celebrant or ceremony didn't align with what they wanted? Why pander to them any more? I would advise your partner to leave this for the moment, and not bother about them for a while. Don't bring stress on yourselves by trying to please them any more than you have already. Leave them severely alone for a few weeks.

Thanks Lazygal but it has been 5 weeks and there was no contact until a call yesterday when i thought they would have seen what they have done means they are not seeing their daughter. And then to blame her on it when they do eventually talk. It is despicable

Church vs Humanist wedding

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