Woman who failed to pay TV licence fine taken to jail in five-hour taxi trip

conorh91 · 04-03-2015 09:39AM

Hans Bricks wrote: »

I'll need evidence for that myself

http://www.edelman.ie/edelman-ireland-trust-barometer-2014/

• Trust in media fell 8 points to 37%, reversing a gradual improvement observed during the previous five years.
• Traditional media (newspapers, radio and television) are the most trusted source of information in Ireland (61%), followed by search engines at 50%. Only 26% of people trust social media as a source of information.

As you have yourself accepted, the last-available survey says that only 29% of people agree with scrapping the licence.

In any event, this has nothing to do with the thread. Whether or not RTE should or should not be publicly funded is irrelevant to the fact that there is presently an obligation for relevant households to purchase a TV licence, just the same as there is an obligation on people in a civilized society to pay their taxes.

AudreyHepburn · 04-03-2015 09:45AM

I fail to see why anyone would take issue with this woman's experience tbh....she was in Contempt of Court, of course she had to be punished. Her having children, where that punishment had to take place are irrelevant imo.

She was given a fine and didn't paid it, why on earth should she be allowed to get away with it?

If you have a TV get a licence....if you don't want to have to pay for a licence don't get a TV, simple as that.

And before anyone asks, yes I did read the article, and yes I did understand it perfectly.

end of the road · 04-03-2015 11:32AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I fail to see why anyone would take issue with this woman's experience tbh....

it cost a lot of money, a lot more then the fine, took gards away from fighting real crime, and wasted everyones time.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

she was in Contempt of Court, of course she had to be punished.

not at all. for to punish her would have had to be cost effective. it wasn't cost effective. it was costly for no benefit and extremely resource and labour intensive.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Her having children, where that punishment had to take place are irrelevant imo.

no they aren't

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

She was given a fine and didn't paid it

she was given a fine and payed most of it. the fact she is expected to stump up in one go when she clearly can't afford it is unreasonable. installments is the way to go.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

why on earth should she be allowed to get away with it?

because its a non issue, and its not cost effective to punish her, and the amount of resources wasted made this extremely labour and resource intensive for no benefit.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If you have a TV get a licence....

i will if i like

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

if you don't want to have to pay for a licence don't get a TV, simple as that.

wrong. not simple as that at all. once the broadcasting charge comes in even if you don't have a tv you will have to pay.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

And before anyone asks, yes I did read the article, and yes I did understand it perfectly.

yet you come out with this self righteous tripe. and expect such a resource and labour intensive hugely non cost effective zero benefit waste of money waste of time nonsense to happen, and condone it. priorities

Hans Bricks · 04-03-2015 12:57PM

conorh91 wrote: »

As you have yourself accepted, the last-available survey says that only 29% of people agree with scrapping the licence.

In any event, this has nothing to do with the thread. Whether or not RTE should or should not be publicly funded is irrelevant to the fact that there is presently an obligation for relevant households to purchase a TV licence, just the same as there is an obligation on people in a civilized society to pay their taxes.

Well not really, considering the reason this woman was jailed and punished for and the money allocated to facilitate a 3 hour stint behind bars. Naturally people like me are gonna question the point in all of this.
That survey I provided also points out that many of the respondents were willing to pay on average above the then current fee of 150 if it were changed to a subscription model.

Respondents were asked what level of monthly fee they would be prepared to pay to receive RTÉ if subscription access were hypothetically to replace the licence fee: the annualised mean and median household figures were €180 and €252.60, compared to the then licence fee of €150, with those who frequently watched RTÉ programs most willing to pay

It's all well and good telling people that they're obligated to pay for something, but you need to justify that with a substantial reason. Just because someone has a TV, doesn't mean they're using RTE's services. It's almost like obligating everyone to pay motor tax, on the basis that they all have a stationary car, declared off road in their driveways.

conorh91 · 04-03-2015 01:34PM

Hans Bricks wrote: »

Well not really, considering the reason this woman was jailed and punished for and the money allocated to facilitate a 3 hour stint behind bars.

She was imprisoned because she didn't pay a court-mandated fine. Courts are not philosophical debating chambers, they exist to uphold the laws as they stand. If you or this woman want to oppose the tv licence, contact your TD.

It's all well and good telling people that they're obligated to pay for something, but you need to justify that with a substantial reason.

No I do not. The Revenue don't come out to my house and sit down, and put their arm around me and tell me in detail why the would like me to pay taxes. It is an obligation, failure to comply with which is a criminal offence. That discussion on how taxes and expenditure should be organised is part of the democratic process in parliament.

Hans Bricks · 04-03-2015 01:47PM

conorh91 wrote: »

She was imprisoned because she didn't pay a court-mandated fine. Courts are not philosophical debating chambers, they exist to uphold the laws as they stand. If you or this woman want to oppose the tv licence, contact your TD.

No I do not. The Revenue don't come out to my house and sit down, and put their arm around me and tell me in detail why the would like me to pay taxes. It is an obligation, failure to comply with which is a criminal offence. That discussion on how taxes and expenditure should be organised is part of the democratic process in parliament.

She was in the process and had €212 euro paid thus far. Why not let the fine get paid out instead of pissing money away on making example of her in the most cost inefficient way possible ?

You're taking me up wrong here. I'm not arguing the technicalities or legality of this. But there's no point in playing dumb where TV license evasion is concerned. It's draconian and archaic. There's plenty of commercial alternatives to be kept informed by. Whether thats the web, private digital subscription or print media. RTE is not an essential service to most people nowadays.

end of the road · 04-03-2015 01:51PM

Hans Bricks wrote: »

She was in the process and had €212 euro paid thus far. Why not let the fine get paid out instead of pissing money away on making example of her in the most cost inefficient way possible ?

You're taking me up wrong here. I'm not arguing the technicalities or legality of this. But there's no point in playing dumb where TV license evasion is concerned. It's draconian and archaic. There's plenty of commercial alternatives to be kept informed by. Whether thats the web, private digital subscription or print media. RTE is not an essential service to most people nowadays.

it is for the programs of minority interest which wouldn't be touched by anyone else. i agree what happened to this woman was a labour/resource intensive non cost effective non benefit waste of time labour and money

conorh91 · 04-03-2015 01:59PM

Hans Bricks wrote: »

She was in the process and had €212 euro paid thus far.

Had she? How does that work then? Because the Courts service is perfectly clear that it doesn't accept installments.

Extensions are available. When she got notice that the due date was arriving, she should have contacted a Garda station, or the District Court, or used google, and discovered how to seek an extension.

end of the road · 04-03-2015 02:49PM

conorh91 wrote: »

Had she? How does that work then? Because the Courts service is perfectly clear that it doesn't accept installments.

Extensions are available. When she got notice that the due date was arriving, she should have contacted a Garda station, or the District Court, or used google, and discovered how to seek an extension.

maybe she had no idea there was an extension process

Hans Bricks · 04-03-2015 08:00PM

conorh91 wrote: »

Had she? How does that work then? Because the Courts service is perfectly clear that it doesn't accept installments.

Extensions are available. When she got notice that the due date was arriving, she should have contacted a Garda station, or the District Court, or used google, and discovered how to seek an extension.

You're most likely right, however brazenly blowing €1000 to punish her in a such a way doesn't seem to provide some equilibrium in terms out what she owed IMO. Garda should have had that lightbulb moment where they realize giving her a final extended due date 'or else' would have made better sense, but sure whatever now.

Hans Bricks · 04-03-2015 08:05PM

end of the road wrote: »

it is for the programs of minority interest which wouldn't be touched by anyone else. i agree what happened to this woman was a labour/resource intensive non cost effective non benefit waste of time labour and money

And what's stopping these "programs of minority interest" ? RTE would still have commercial revenue and a subscriber model to finance it. They could get some fiscal sense and remove international programming, outlandish salaries etc.

Like I said earlier, RTE 2FM, Aertel and RTE.ie are all completely commercial. Maybe the entire organisation should learn to follow suit ?

shruikan2553 · 04-03-2015 11:38PM

end of the road wrote: »

it is for the programs of minority interest which wouldn't be touched by anyone else. i agree what happened to this woman was a labour/resource intensive non cost effective non benefit waste of time labour and money

What are these minority interest programs and if they are such a minority is it really that much of a loss?

end of the road · 05-03-2015 12:29AM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

What are these minority interest programs and if they are such a minority is it really that much of a loss?

yes it is . the media industry needs to cater to all sorts of tastes. RTE rightly has an obligation to cater for as much of those as possible, all be it they need to improve and actually do it.

donegaLroad · 05-03-2015 01:14AM

Prison should be an absolute last resort. People should only be imprisoned if they are a tangible danger to others.

*Not paying for TV licence/car tax/road offences/etc are not crimes.. a crime requires a victim.

Fred Swanson · 05-03-2015 01:53AM

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donegaLroad · 05-03-2015 02:30AM

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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she should have asked to get out of the taxi in the North on the way to Dublin.. she would have been free to go and they couldn't have done a thing.

bjork · 05-03-2015 10:34AM

donegaLroad wrote: »

she should have asked to get out of the taxi in the North on the way to Dublin.. she would have been free to go and they couldn't have done a thing.

They couldn't go through the North with the Gardai in the car, they drove through Sligo

donegaLroad · 05-03-2015 10:54AM

bjork wrote: »

They couldn't go through the North with the Gardai in the car, they drove through Sligo

thats what I was wondering

Little CuChulainn · 05-03-2015 11:56AM

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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You can't part pay fines.

Fred Swanson · 05-03-2015 12:04PM

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Little CuChulainn · 05-03-2015 12:11PM

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Again, you can't part pay fines. Even if she found a courts office or Garda station that allowed a part payment, she would still be entitled to it back if the warrant was subsequently executed. Unless some new legislation has been passed in the last year that allowed it, she did not lose her money.

Fred Swanson · 05-03-2015 12:12PM

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Gerry T · 05-03-2015 12:22PM

Seems simple really, she had a TV and didn't have a Lisc. She was caught and fined. Failed to pay in time and got brought to court. All very simple. Can't see how people can debate for 24 pages.

The change here is she should have to pay the costs also. So the original fine balance plus her contempt fee and also costs for taxi's, guards time, courts time. Lets round it all up to an even €5k. Lock her up till its paid.

Now watch what happens when someone else gets a fine and says I'm not paying. They will think, hang on If I waste peoples time by being stupid then I will get hit with a massive bill...best put this fine on top of the priority list and make sure its paid in time.

Hans Bricks · 05-03-2015 12:39PM

Gerry T wrote: »

Seems simple really, she had a TV and didn't have a Lisc. She was caught and fined. Failed to pay in time and got brought to court. All very simple. Can't see how people can debate for 24 pages.

The change here is she should have to pay the costs also. So the original fine balance plus her contempt fee and also costs for taxi's, guards time, courts time. Lets round it all up to an even €5k. Lock her up till its paid.

Now watch what happens when someone else gets a fine and says I'm not paying. They will think, hang on If I waste peoples time by being stupid then I will get hit with a massive bill...best put this fine on top of the priority list and make sure its paid in time.

€5k ? Christ. Bit vindictive if you don't mind me saying so.

All this debacle over a license to watch a black box in your living room. Sounds absurd when you think about it.

Gerry T · 05-03-2015 01:12PM

Hans Bricks wrote: »

€5k ? Christ. Bit vindictive if you don't mind me saying so.

All this debacle over a license to watch a black box in your living room. Sounds absurd when you think about it.

I don't think so, add up all the time, fines and you probably would come to 5k, or 4k but whatever it is she should pay.

What's wrong is this woman can waste the time of all these people, spend the day going to court. Truth be known she had a number of reminder notices and didn't contact anyone to say she was having difficulty, but in my opinion the original fine wasn't excessive and should have been paid in time. Yes the Guards and Courts should spend their time with "real criminals", but how can they when this sort of nonsense is clogging the system up.

conorh91 · 05-03-2015 01:36PM

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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What can happen is people pay money into the district court office, say by cheque, and it is put aside and a note is made of it. If they pay the balance before the due date, the office just enter a payment as normal.

However if the balance is not paid by the due date, the relevant court office and the Gardaí are prevented from taking a pragmatic approach. To 'take it upon themselves' to ignore a warrant would be an interference with the constitutionally-ordained role of the courts in administering justice.

This is a bugbear of mine because it does happen in respect of AGS and the non-execution of warrants, but it shouldn't, and like it or not, the Gardaí in this case acted absolutely correctly.

Again, blame the Government for not commencing the legislation which the Oireachtas has already passed, which would have avoided this silly situation.

mikom · 05-03-2015 01:41PM

Gerry T wrote: »

Seems simple really, she had a TV and didn't have a Lisc. She was caught and fined. Failed to pay in time and got brought to court. All very simple. Can't see how people can debate for 24 pages.

The change here is she should have to pay the costs also. So the original fine balance plus her contempt fee and also costs for taxi's, guards time, courts time. Lets round it all up to an even €5k. Lock her up till its paid.

Now watch what happens when someone else gets a fine and says I'm not paying. They will think, hang on If I waste peoples time by being stupid then I will get hit with a massive bill...best put this fine on top of the priority list and make sure its paid in time.

Hans Bricks wrote: »

€5k ? Christ. Bit vindictive if you don't mind me saying so.

All this debacle over a license to watch a black box in your living room. Sounds absurd when you think about it.

Ah shur 5K, it's only 1.7% of Marian Finucane 295,000 yearly RTE wage for presenting just four hours of radio a week, for on average 30 weeks out of the year.
That's 295,000 for just 120 hours in studio time.
A steal.................. A steal

Gerry T · 05-03-2015 01:45PM

conorh91 wrote: »

What can happen is people pay money into the district court office, say by cheque, and it is put aside and a note is made of it. If they pay the balance before the due date, the office just enter a payment as normal.

However if the balance is not paid by the due date, the relevant court office and the Gardaí are prevented from taking a pragmatic approach. To 'take it upon themselves' to ignore a warrant would be an interference with the constitutionally-ordained role of the courts in administering justice.

This is a bugbear of mine because it does happen in respect of AGS and the non-execution of warrants, but it shouldn't, and like it or not, the Gardaí in this case acted absolutely correctly.

Again, blame the Government for not commencing the legislation which the Oireachtas has already passed, which would have avoided this silly situation.

I'm not familiar with the new legislation but is it open for abuse. If someone has a fine say €400 and pay €20 does that mean they get an extension for a period of time or can they string things along for months & years.
This sounds nuts, small fines say under €800 should only be paid in single payments, larger fines I do thing a payment plan should be offered but any failure should have very strict repercussions.
Its near impossible to separate those that can't pay to those that won't pay, this unfortunately is hard on those strapped for cash.

bjork · 05-03-2015 01:47PM

They should confiscate the television and any other receiving devices

Gerry T · 05-03-2015 02:06PM

mikom wrote: »

Ah shur 5K, it's only 1.7% of Marian Finucane 295,000 yearly RTE wage for presenting just four hours of radio a week, for on average 30 weeks out of the year.
That's 295,000 for just 120 hours in studio time.
A steal.................. A steal

Taken from the irish penal reform thrust http://www.iprt.ie/prison-facts-2

85% of fine defaulters are back in custody within four years.

There were 8,304 committals for non-payment of court-ordered fines in 2012, including 242 imprisoned for failing to pay fines imposed for not having a tv licence.

The average cost of imprisonment per prisoner was €65,542 in 2013, not including education expenditure.

Going by that a prisoner costs approx €180 a day and 242 were TV lisc non payments and if each were no more than a day in prison that cost the state approx €43k. That's a lot of money on these time wasters.

That's nearly 15% of Marian's pay or 18 hr's studio time !!

Woman who failed to pay TV licence fine taken to jail in five-hour taxi trip

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