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Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert **See Mod Warning Post #1**

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Comments

  • #932
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    km79 wrote: »
    I wish we all lived in your world

    You can, if you and your colleagues insist on proper moderation and training and you devise watertight assessments. It's how it works elsewhere.


  • #933
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,422 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    katydid wrote: »
    If the material you're assessing is properly devised, the marking scheme is clear, and you have the backing of internal and external moderation, no principal in the world can put pressure on you.

    Of course they do. I see it all the time as an external monitor. There are principals out there who would sell their granny to get better grades for the school.


  • #934
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Of course they do. I see it all the time as an external monitor. There are principals out there who would sell their granny to get better grades for the school.

    In that case, the assessments weren't devised properly. A transparent marking scheme can't be questioned by any principal or anyone else. I presume you mentioned that in your report?


  • #935
    jonseyblub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 360 ✭✭jonseyblub


    katydid wrote: »
    You can, if you and your colleagues insist on proper moderation and training and you devise watertight assessments. It's how it works elsewhere.
    Would you get a grip. The department couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery let alone proper training. Do you honestly believe if we capitulate on marking our own students we will have any chance of insisting on proper moderation and training? They'd laugh at us and of course the media would just lap it up


  • #936
    Inspector Coptoor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    katydid wrote: »
    You can, if you and your colleagues insist on proper moderation and training and you devise watertight assessments. It's how it works elsewhere.

    And if I won the lotto, I'd be a millionaire.

    Your posts are not constructive and not indicative of the situation here in Ireland.

    You are talking about some educational utopia that doesn't exist


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  • #937
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Inspector Coptoor wrote: »
    And if I won the lotto, I'd be a millionaire.

    Your posts are not constructive and not indicative of the situation here in Ireland.

    You are talking about some educational utopia that doesn't exist

    They certainly are reflective of the situation here in Ireland. They are reflective of how they are in my workplace. Here in Ireland.


  • #938
    Inspector Coptoor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    So, you're not a secondary school teacher then?

    You work in FE?


  • #939
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Inspector Coptoor wrote: »
    So, you're not a secondary school teacher then?

    You work in FE?

    Yes. Where we do exactly what secondary school teachers are being asked to do.


  • #940
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,422 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    katydid wrote: »
    In that case, the assessments weren't devised properly. A transparent marking scheme can't be questioned by any principal or anyone else. I presume you mentioned that in your report?

    There is a very clear marking scheme. Clear as day. Some teachers and principals are simply not professional when it comes to grading students in their own classes/school and will give all As regardless of the quality of the work. I've said earlier in this thread that I've had plenty of 'Johnny is on the county minors, he's a great lad' in the hope that he will be given an A by virtue of the fact that he kicks a ball around a pitch on a Sunday morning. I've had students go missing at the behest of their teachers so I couldn't interview them, I've had teachers pack half the class onto a school bus off to a match/trip so I couldn't interview them, in the belief that I wouldn't change grades/ wait for the students return if I couldn't interview them. I've seen it all. And it's only the tip of the iceberg.

    You seem to be of the opinion because a marking scheme is written in black and white that people will just obey it. Well, they won't and plenty of them don't. They will do whatever they can to bend the rules.


  • #941
    Inspector Coptoor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    katydid wrote: »
    Yes. Where we do exactly what secondary school teachers are being asked to do.

    Except you deal with adults, not teenagers, ergo, it's not exactly the same at all and the relationship is one of an adult - adult nature AND you are NOT in loco parentis


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  • #942
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Inspector Coptoor wrote: »
    Except you deal with adults, not teenagers, ergo, it's not exactly the same at all and the relationship is one of an adult - adult nature AND you are NOT in loco parentis

    I mostly deal with teenagers; most of our students are just out of school.

    The relationship between student and teacher is irrelevant, in any case. The student, whatever their age, has to understand that their teacher is fair and objective, and they can know that by seeing a clear marking scheme.


  • #943
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    There is a very clear marking scheme. Clear as day. Some teachers and principals are simply not professional when it comes to grading students in their own classes/school and will give all As regardless of the quality of the work. I've said earlier in this thread that I've had plenty of 'Johnny is on the county minors, he's a great lad' in the hope that he will be given an A by virtue of the fact that he kicks a ball around a pitch on a Sunday morning. I've had students go missing at the behest of their teachers so I couldn't interview them, I've had teachers pack half the class onto a school bus off to a match/trip so I couldn't interview them, in the belief that I wouldn't change grades/ wait for the students return if I couldn't interview them. I've seen it all. And it's only the tip of the iceberg.

    You seem to be of the opinion because a marking scheme is written in black and white that people will just obey it. Well, they won't and plenty of them don't. They will do whatever they can to bend the rules.
    If there's a marking scheme and it's not followed, it's your duty as an extern to call the teacher concerned and point it out to them and if you find it to be a consistent factor in a school, to put it in your report.


  • #944
    Inspector Coptoor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    katydid wrote: »
    I mostly deal with teenagers; most of our students are just out of school.

    The relationship between student and teacher is irrelevant, in any case. The student, whatever their age, has to understand that their teacher is fair and objective, and they can know that by seeing a clear marking scheme.

    Massive difference between an 18-19 year old and a 14-15 year old JC student.
    Your students are adults end of.

    It is not irrelevant at all, and quite frankly, I'm finding your holier than thou attitude both irksome and condescending


  • #945
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Inspector Coptoor wrote: »
    Massive difference between an 18-19 year old and a 14-15 year old JC student.
    Your students are adults end of.

    It is not irrelevant at all, and quite frankly, I'm finding your holier than thou attitude both irksome and condescending

    What is the difference, in terms of being assessed? Can you be more specific. A marking scheme is a marking scheme and feedback is feedback. I fail to see how age would change that fact.

    I'm sorry you find my attitude distasteful, but I am simply pointing out that it can work and does work. That may not suit your prejudice, but it is a fact.


  • #946
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,422 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    katydid wrote: »
    If there's a marking scheme and it's not followed, it's your duty as an extern to call the teacher concerned and point it out to them and if you find it to be a consistent factor in a school, to put it in your report.

    I know how to do my job thank you very much. You also don't know what my job is, so you don't know how much I can and cannot say to the teacher in question.

    A very basic point that you choose to ignore is that second level students have no control over what the teacher marks on their page, but plenty have no problem going home to complain to their parents about 'the teacher that picks on me' and that parent landing into the school to scream blue murder. Even with 17 year old PLCs that you teach, that doesn't happen. Parents regard it as adult education and are not involved.

    All of what I have mentioned in my previous posts goes on where teachers are choosing to bump up grades of their own volition.

    Also many secondary schools market themselves based on their results and will do whatever they can to get the best results possible even if that means giving out grades that are undeserved.


  • #947
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    I know how to do my job thank you very much. You also don't know what my job is, so you don't know how much I can and cannot say to the teacher in question.

    A very basic point that you choose to ignore is that second level students have no control over what the teacher marks on their page, but plenty have no problem going home to complain to their parents about 'the teacher that picks on me' and that parent landing into the school to scream blue murder. Even with 17 year old PLCs that you teach, that doesn't happen. Parents regard it as adult education and are not involved.

    All of what I have mentioned in my previous posts goes on where teachers are choosing to bump up grades of their own volition.

    Also many secondary schools market themselves based on their results and will do whatever they can to get the best results possible even if that means giving out grades that are undeserved.
    Is your job not to look at the work and decide if the work was completed, presented and marked properly? To question teachers where you feel it has been bumped up?That is my understanding of what the externs do - it's what I assume when I prepare my work for them. Could you clarify what you can actually do?

    I'm not sure what relevance the parents have. Can you elaborate? The teacher's job is to mark the work. The parents' opinion of their work is irrelevant.


  • #948
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,422 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    katydid wrote: »
    Is your job not to look at the work and decide if the work was completed, presented and marked properly? To question teachers where you feel it has been bumped up?That is my understanding of what the externs do - it's what I assume when I prepare my work for them. Could you clarify what you can actually do?

    I'm not sure what relevance the parents have. Can you elaborate? The teacher's job is to mark the work. The parents' opinion of their work is irrelevant.

    No, I'm not willing to elaborate on the precise details of my work. It's not for FETAC. That is a different beast altogether. What I will say is I can change grades and do when necessary as is my role.

    Parent's opinions are heeded when a principal wants a particular parent off their back in some cases. In some fee paying schools, parents feel they have more of a right to complain about everything and anything, including grades, if they are paying €5k+ per year to educate their darling child. It can happen in non fee paying too, but not necessarily in the same circumstances. You're very naive if you don't think this happens.


  • #949
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    No, I'm not willing to elaborate on the precise details of my work. It's not for FETAC. That is a different beast altogether. What I will say is I can change grades and do when necessary as is my role.

    Parent's opinions are heeded when a principal wants a particular parent off their back in some cases. In some fee paying schools, parents feel they have more of a right to complain about everything and anything, including grades, if they are paying €5k+ per year to educate their darling child. It can happen in non fee paying too, but not necessarily in the same circumstances. You're very naive if you don't think this happens.

    No idea why you're being so coy, but I have it sounds strange if you are not in a position to make a report about unprofessional conduct on the part of teachers or management. I presume that you have to record the changing of marks; a lot of changes in one establishment should surely ring alarm bells.

    You don't seem to grasp what I'm saying about parents and management; no parent or principal can pressurise a teacher in any way if the teacher has produced a transparent and fair mark, which they can stand over. An assignment that has been marked with a clear scheme, internally AND externally moderated can be questioned further down the line when the results come out, as they are for the state exams at present.


  • #950
    happywithlife
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭happywithlife


    katydid wrote: »
    No idea why you're being so coy, but I have it sounds strange if you are not in a position to make a report about unprofessional conduct on the part of teachers or management. I presume that you have to record the changing of marks; a lot of changes in one establishment should surely ring alarm bells.

    You don't seem to grasp what I'm saying about parents and management; no parent or principal can pressurise a teacher in any way if the teacher has produced a transparent and fair mark, which they can stand over. An assignment that has been marked with a clear scheme, internally AND externally moderated can be questioned further down the line when the results come out, as they are for the state exams at present.

    Everyone is entitled to their privacy here. Expansion might make them more identifiable.
    And I'm sorry to say you yourself are refusing to grasp what several teachers have said - more than once I might add - that YES principals and parents put pressure on teachers to change grades.
    It happens. Your continued denial / refusal to accept it doesn't change the fact that it happens.


  • #951
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,422 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    katydid wrote: »
    No idea why you're being so coy, but I have it sounds strange if you are not in a position to make a report about unprofessional conduct on the part of teachers or management. I presume that you have to record the changing of marks; a lot of changes in one establishment should surely ring alarm bells.

    You don't seem to grasp what I'm saying about parents and management; no parent or principal can pressurise a teacher in any way if the teacher has produced a transparent and fair mark, which they can stand over. An assignment that has been marked with a clear scheme, internally AND externally moderated can be questioned further down the line when the results come out, as they are for the state exams at present.

    Because confidentiality in the process means we don't post every detail of it online. And plenty of the regular posters on here who have been posting here as long as I have know what I teach and probably have a clear idea of what I am referencing. I don't have to identify myself to you by posting more information.


    You must be living in cloud cuckoo land. Just because a teacher produces a clear and transparent marking scheme and marks to go with it doesn't mean they can't be pressurised. Of course they can.

    Some elements of the state exams cannot be appealed. But you make all of your assumptions about the system based on your opinions, without all the facts and on what goes on in your FE centre. It's not even comparable.


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  • #952
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors




    At this stage I will have to ask that we refrain from comparing to other types of education LCA,LCVP,JCSP,FE,FETAC,FAS,3rd Level etc.


    The topic is in relation to an education for 70,000 students between the ages of 12 and 15 (and the possible implications for the established Leaving Certificate to follow). This cohort implies a unique type of interaction with teachers,parents,students and management. Persisting with the notion that parents/students and management have no baring on teachers practices is inflammatory when examples have been given to the contrary. Entering into this area of debate in the new thread will be considered flaming (as per the charter).

    Thread Closed

    New Thread HERE


This discussion has been closed.
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