Woman who failed to pay TV licence fine taken to jail in five-hour taxi trip

Galwayguy35 · 01-03-2015 03:53PM

Anyone who can afford a TV can pay the license, some people want to pay for nothing.

end of the road · 01-03-2015 03:53PM

timetogo wrote: »

What kind of changes should they do?

I don't agree with the "it was cheaper to leave her Donegal than the amount owed in the fine". With that kind of logic everybody more than an hour or so from jail shouldn't pay any fine less than €200 because it's cheaper to leave them alone rather than jail them.

well, the fact is we have to cut costs. if it means people not being jailed for non payment of fines then that is how it has to be until we can come up with a system that works that is cheep to run

end of the road · 01-03-2015 03:55PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Anyone who can afford a TV can pay the license, some people want to pay for nothing.

being able to afford a tv doesn't mean you can afford a licence. you could have gotten the tv as a present, or from savings. nothing to do with people wanting to pay for nothing. just a bunch of old "bend over and take it up the hole" nonsense

Pie Eater · 01-03-2015 03:57PM

The concept of even bringing these people to court in the first place is wasteful. Here's my proposed process:

1) Check whether the household has a TV.
2) If there is no TV, fine. Move to step 8. If there is, move to step 3.
3) Ask the householder to produce their TV licence.
4) If a valid licence is produced, great. Move to step 8. If not, move to step 5.
5) Check that the TV belongs to the household and is not stolen.
6) If the TV is stolen, engage the Gardai and let them handle it. Move to step 8. If it is not, move to step 7.
7) Take the TV out and smash it. To bits.
8) Process ends.

That's it. No arrests (unless step 6 is reached), no court time, no fines paid or unpaid, no sentencing and no further costs. The licence is still required and there are real consequences for not having one. For everyone.

This process can be repeated every 12 months or more often if necessary. There's an argument for swapping steps 3 and 5 around, but I don't think there are many people who would buy a licence for a stolen TV.

Galwayguy35 · 01-03-2015 04:01PM

end of the road wrote: »

being able to afford a tv doesn't mean you can afford a licence. you could have gotten the tv as a present, or from savings. nothing to do with people wanting to pay for nothing. just a bunch of old "bend over and take it up the hole" nonsense

That about sums up this post.

99% of folk who have a TV paid for it, in fact most houses have 2 of them now.

end of the road · 01-03-2015 04:24PM

Pie Eater wrote: »

The concept of even bringing these people to court in the first place is wasteful. Here's my proposed process:

1) Check whether the household has a TV.
2) If there is no TV, fine. Move to step 8. If there is, move to step 3.
3) Ask the householder to produce their TV licence.
4) If a valid licence is produced, great. Move to step 8. If not, move to step 5.
5) Check that the TV belongs to the household and is not stolen.
6) If the TV is stolen, engage the Gardai and let them handle it. Move to step 8. If it is not, move to step 7.
7) Take the TV out and smash it. To bits.
8) Process ends.

That's it. No arrests (unless step 6 is reached), no court time, no fines paid or unpaid, no sentencing and no further costs. The licence is still required and there are real consequences for not having one. For everyone.

This process can be repeated every 12 months or more often if necessary. There's an argument for swapping steps 3 and 5 around, but I don't think there are many people who would buy a licence for a stolen TV.

good idea in theory, but they would just get another one. coming around every year would probably be as costly as taking them to court, but maybe not. would be worth looking into though

donegaLroad · 01-03-2015 05:57PM

timetogo wrote: »

What kind of changes should they do?

I don't agree with the "it was cheaper to leave her Donegal than the amount owed in the fine". With that kind of logic everybody more than an hour or so from jail shouldn't pay any fine less than €200 because it's cheaper to leave them alone rather than jail them.

this is from July last year:

Ireland told to stop sending people to prison for not paying fines

THE UN HAS expressed concern at the number of people going to prison in Ireland for failure to pay fines.

In an eight page document released by the international body’s Human Rights Committee yesterday, it said an alternative method needs to be looked at.
This is despite the adoption of Enforcement of Court Orders (amendment) Act 2009 and Fines (payment and recovery) Act 2014 by the State.

The UN committee said: “The State party should fully implement the Fines (payment and recovery) Act 2014 to provide for a community service order as an alternative to imprisonment used as a method of enforcing contractual obligations.”

Welcoming the recommendations the Irish Penal Reform Trust (IPRT) called on the Government to act on the committee’s recommendations “without delay”.

Still no change 7 months later..

conorh91 · 01-03-2015 06:12PM

end of the road wrote: »

of course you can ignore it. just turn a blind eye to it. plenty of little things have a blind eye turned to them because they aren't financially viable to enforce

S.35 Petty Sessions (Ireland) Act 1851

It is a criminal offence to be willfully negligent in returning non-executed warrants, or to be willfully in default of their execution.

That's not just some obscure Victorian law by the way. It has been relied upon in the courts in relatively recent times, AGS and the courts are well aware of it.

Blaming the Gardai for this nonsense is simply wrong. They are upholding the law, and not just the bits that suit them. That's what happens in a democratic state observing the rule of law.

If you want to blame someone, blame the Government for failing to implement legislative changes for the efficient collection of fines.

end of the road · 01-03-2015 06:52PM

conorh91 wrote: »

S.35 Petty Sessions (Ireland) Act 1851

It is a criminal offence to be willfully negligent in returning non-executed warrants, or to be willfully in default of their execution.

That's not just some obscure Victorian law by the way. It has been relied upon in the courts in relatively recent times, AGS and the courts are well aware of it.

Blaming the Gardai for this nonsense is simply wrong. They are upholding the law, and not just the bits that suit them. That's what happens in a democratic state observing the rule of law.

If you want to blame someone, blame the Government for failing to implement legislative changes for the efficient collection of fines.

what are you on about. i didn't blaim the gardai for anything.

conorh91 · 01-03-2015 06:54PM

end of the road wrote: »

what are you on about. i didn't blaim the gardai for anything.

Who else exactly are you suggesting should turn a blind eye to the enforcement of a committal warrant?

end of the road · 01-03-2015 07:12PM

conorh91 wrote: »

Who else exactly are you suggesting should turn a blind eye to the enforcement of a committal warrant?

everyone. she was making an effort to pay and had much of it payed off.

conorh91 · 01-03-2015 07:17PM

end of the road wrote: »

everyone.

:rolleyes:

Make up your mind.

She didn't pay the fine. The Gardai had no choice.

SpaceTime · 01-03-2015 07:19PM

donegaLroad wrote: »

this is from July last year:

Ireland told to stop sending people to prison for not paying fines

THE UN HAS expressed concern at the number of people going to prison in Ireland for failure to pay fines.

In an eight page document released by the international body’s Human Rights Committee yesterday, it said an alternative method needs to be looked at.
This is despite the adoption of Enforcement of Court Orders (amendment) Act 2009 and Fines (payment and recovery) Act 2014 by the State.

The UN committee said: “The State party should fully implement the Fines (payment and recovery) Act 2014 to provide for a community service order as an alternative to imprisonment used as a method of enforcing contractual obligations.”

Welcoming the recommendations the Irish Penal Reform Trust (IPRT) called on the Government to act on the committee’s recommendations “without delay”.

Still no change 7 months later..

So, not only are we wasting tax payers' money but also falling short of our UN obligations. Well done Irish Government -- slow clap.

Clankatron · 01-03-2015 07:30PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Anyone who can afford a TV can pay the license, some people want to pay for nothing.

Incorrect. Some people don't want to pay for a service that they neither want, need, nor asked for. These same people also greatly resent the fact that they face a fine and/or imprisonment should they dare to not cough up.

It would be hilarious if it wasn't so utterly depressing and wrong.

J K · 01-03-2015 07:41PM

end of the road wrote: »

everyone. she was making an effort to pay and had much of it payed off.

You can't pay a court fine/penal warrant in installments.

Galwayguy35 · 01-03-2015 08:05PM

Clankatron wrote: »

Incorrect. Some people don't want to pay for a service that they neither want, need, nor asked for. These same people also greatly resent the fact that they face a fine and/or imprisonment should they dare to not cough up.

It would be hilarious if it wasn't so utterly depressing and wrong.

So should we not pay our car tax either?

Nobody wants to pay for things but like it or not it's the law of the land and some people should not be exempt just because they don't like it.

Grandeeod · 01-03-2015 08:28PM

Can't resist the bait any longer. Here's a funny one.

My house in Ireland is empty. I live and work abroad 9 months of the year. I come back to Ireland typically for around 3 months each year either in one go or spread over stages. There is no TV in the house. The TV license was never renewed once I moved because I gave the TV to a friend. I have rented the house on a short term basis a couple of times and the tenants had their own TV.

Anyway, I came back to the house for a few weeks in March last year after a tenant had left. I brought my PC hard drive and laptop with me. If I need TV, I just use the players etc. because the broadband is still connected. That's what I have always done. There was a notice from the License inspector addressed to "the occupiers". It basically said that they had called and would be back in a few days because there is no license purchased for the address. I didn't think much of it. But sure enough after a few weeks I get a knock on the door and low and behold its the TV license inspector. I explained the situation. Told him there was no TV in the house at all. I invited him in to look for himself. He refused to come in but took my name. Off he went. So I assume that its scratched off the list. But no. In May, my parents ring me to say that that a notice of registered post was in the house. I told them to collect it and what is it? A court summons for not having a TV license!

A few phonecalls later and still no joy. I was given the option of buying a license to make things look better in court or perhaps pay an additional fee on top of the license to cover legal costs. But there is no TV in the house, so I wasn't going to buy one. It came to court at the end of June and I coordinated a trip home to coincide with it.

That's when the charade started. I didn't engage a Solicitor. Up I step in court. The "evidence" is read out to me. State solicitor and all that crap. I plead not guilty. I'm given the chance then to "cross examine" the license inspector. They are not prepared for this at all. So I simply remind him that I invited him into the house to check if I had a TV after I told him the situation. He didn't remember. Judge interupts and asks the license inspector if he went into the house to check if there was a TV inside. No he says. Case struck out.

I lost a few days between correspondence and a court appearence. State solicitor gets paid and no law was broken. The whole thing was a waste of time and money and a result of assumptions based on bullying. Yes the state has genuine cases under current law, but how much of this crap goes on at a cost to the taxpayer.

Grandeeod · 01-03-2015 08:43PM

J K wrote: »

You can't pay a court fine/penal warrant in installments.

I believe that in certain cases, it should be the case. Treating people to prison, that don't pay court issued fines in full and on time for cases like minor road traffic offences and the TV license is a pretty prehistoric approach. The same BS goes on in family law regarding maintenence. Daddy doesn't pay or misses payments and he's jailed.

There is no consistancy across the spectrum of who serves time in jail.

Tony EH · 01-03-2015 08:50PM

drdidlittle wrote: »

So if I owe you two hundred euro and I give you 100 you'll let me off with the other hundred? Great put me down for a thousand. Ill pay in 20 euro a week installments. Thanks

She wasn't being "let off" with anything. She was in the process of paying.

Tony EH · 01-03-2015 08:52PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

some people want to pay for nothing.

Paying for nothing. Yep, that's the TV license in a nutshell.

:pac:

drdidlittle · 01-03-2015 08:53PM

Tony EH wrote: »

She wasn't being "let off" with anything. She was in the process of paying.

But if the repayment schedules are not followed isn't that the same as not paying in the eyes of the law. Look at mortgage repayments or any type of formal loan

Tony EH · 01-03-2015 08:58PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Anyone who can afford a TV can pay the license

Idiot comment. :rolleyes:

You can get a TV for 300 Euro. A second hand one for half that. A TV can last you for years. I bought my Samsung 32 inch for 300 Euro in 2011 and it's not going anywhere for the foreseeable future.

In that time, I've had to get 4 TV licenses. :mad:

end of the road · 01-03-2015 09:01PM

QUOTE=Galwayguy35;94502417]So should we not pay our car tax either?

Nobody wants to pay for things but like it or not it's the law of the land and some people should not be exempt just because they don't like it.[/QUOTE]

when it comes to this, and the cost of enforcement is greater, yes they should. its all about being cost effective. what happened this woman wasn't cost effective

Tony EH · 01-03-2015 09:01PM

drdidlittle wrote: »

But if the repayment schedules are not followed isn't that the same as not paying in the eyes of the law. Look at mortgage repayments or any type of formal loan

If she has been paying back the fine, that should suffice in a logical scenario. She'd already paid off half of the fine.

A bit of sense could be applied, instead of pissing away more money on a silly venture.

You see, this is a prime example of the everyday waste of public money that goes on in this stupid country and then the powers that be turn around to the fools and say they haven't enough...give us more.

And some fools are all too willing to cough up without question.

end of the road · 01-03-2015 09:04PM

Grandeeod wrote: »

I believe that in certain cases, it should be the case. Treating people to prison, that don't pay court issued fines in full and on time for cases like minor road traffic offences and the TV license is a pretty prehistoric approach. The same BS goes on in family law regarding maintenence. Daddy doesn't pay or misses payments and he's jailed.

There is no consistancy across the spectrum of who serves time in jail.

even worse, if mammy refuses to allow daddy see the kids just because. she gets away with it. or at least, thats how it looks like from an outsiders point of view

Tony EH · 01-03-2015 09:05PM

Grandeeod wrote: »

I lost a few days between correspondence and a court appearence. State solicitor gets paid and no law was broken. The whole thing was a waste of time and money and a result of assumptions based on bullying. Yes the state has genuine cases under current law, but how much of this crap goes on at a cost to the taxpayer.

And there's another example of waste.

You couldn't make it up.

Grandeeod · 01-03-2015 09:45PM

end of the road wrote: »

even worse, if mammy refuses to allow daddy see the kids just because. she gets away with it. or at least, thats how it looks like from an outsiders point of view

Don't want to go off topic, but Family Law in Ireland is equally prehistoric. You are quite correct in what you have said. How we have very mundane cases of people getting jailed for mickey mouse "offenses" is staggering when benchmarked against people getting "suspended" sentences for crimes that actually deserve time.

Cienciano · 01-03-2015 09:51PM

Lapin wrote: »

Someone's head needs to roll here. If anything like this happened in the private sector, there would be P45s issued to whoever signed off on a waste of resources on this scale.

While I think the entire TV licence thing is ridiculous, this bit of your post annoys me. As if the private sector doesn't waste a cent. There's crazy waste and idiotic decisions in the private sector every minute of the day. They're definitely not exempt from behaviour like this

Galwayguy35 · 01-03-2015 09:54PM

Tony EH wrote: »

Idiot comment. :rolleyes:

You can get a TV for 300 Euro. A second hand one for half that. A TV can last you for years. I bought my Samsung 32 inch for 300 Euro in 2011 and it's not going anywhere for the foreseeable future.

In that time, I've had to get 4 TV licenses. :mad:

So what?

Lobby you local TD then and ask him/her to campaign to get the license fee reduced/abolished then instead of bitchin on here about it .

conorh91 · 01-03-2015 10:07PM

Tony EH wrote: »

If she has been paying back the fine, that should suffice in a logical scenario. She'd already paid off half of the fine.

There is no provision for instalment payments in law, so it's not clear how the woman thinks she has been paying instalments. The Fines Act 2010 and the Fines (Payment and Recovery) Act 2014 did make such provision but have not been commenced.

As such there is no system in place for AGS or the Courts to work with. They have to work with the system they've been given.

Maybe the woman should have gone back before the Court prior to the due date.

She would have got a fines notice to inform her that the due date was imminent.

Woman who failed to pay TV licence fine taken to jail in five-hour taxi trip

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