Ever tried driving at 20 km/h (12 mph) for long?

CramCycle · 24-02-2015 12:08PM

SeanW wrote: »

the driver was a twat and the limit was completely irrelevant.

True

"It's a limit, not a target"

Words many people fail to realise.

I.E. a speed limit that's too high isn't a problem because it's a maximum limit. A speed limit that's too low is because it isn't supposed to be exceeded even if circumstances show a higher speed would be safe and proportionate.

I don't get you here. A speed limit thats too high might encourage the stupider among society to believe that the road they are on can be handled at that speed. It may not be an issue for you, me or most reasonable people but for some it is. If the limit is to high, its a problem.

As for the lower being too dangerous? I understand it on a motorway where slow drivers are a danger to themselves and others but on an estate? How is the higher speed safer on the estate?

That said, 30kph may be appropriate in some cases. But 20kph is just taking the piss.

Looked at my GPS this morning out of interest (Irealise not the most accurate thing in the world). Coming out of my estate I stay under 20kmph (all of the time) up until the exit on to the main road where I generally cross 20kmph for a second. If I wanted to go at 30kmph I probably could but its not the right choice, roads are too narrow and sight lines are not suitable with an over abundance of muppets parking on corners.

At most, it can't add much more than a minute to most peoples commute.

Other than the minor inconvenience, and thats all it is thats pissing people off at the end of the day, what is wrong with 20kmph.

General points to be made to those who claim they can't drive at 20kmph in an estate:

I can't drive at 20kmph in my estate: BS, you are too impatient to add 30seconds onto your commute.

My car does not allow me to drive at 20kmph: BS; with rare exception of some super car (and I don't know any on Irish roads myself), all cars can go at sub 20kmph, the M50 a few years ago is a testament to that fact.

I can't drive at 20kmph for long: first of all, BS, second of all, get your car to a garage, it needs a service.

I can't drive at 20kmph: BS, let me FYP, you can't drive.

If I drive at 20kmph some muppet will overtake me dangerously so I better drive faster: Really, FFS, you won't drive safely because it will "FORCE" others not to drive safely, this isn't just BS, this is BS in Gargantuan proportions.

Korat · 24-02-2015 12:18PM

A 20 kmph limit could be achieved on all roads if they just stopped maintaining them. It costs thousands to put in speed ramps and traffic calming measures when leaving a road alone until potholes appear actually saves money.

Pinch Flat · 24-02-2015 12:18PM

If I was to drive the 200 m through my estate to the main road at 20 km/hr, it would take me 24 seconds. At 30 km/hr it would take 36 seconds. I can live with the 12 seconds the lower speed takes from my day.

Skylinehead · 24-02-2015 12:29PM

Laois_Man wrote: »

Other than mentioning what's already published, it is not appropriate to discuss this on Boards.ie at this time. All I'll say is, you're talking bull. By conditions, you can only mean visibility and weather conditions.......but it was a sunny, blue sky, June evening - If you can't drive to the speed limit in those perfect "conditions", then the speed limit is wrong, which is the point of the campaign.

Conditions can also mean bends in the road, road surface, cars parked etc, it's not just weather.

In my eyes the speed limit is largely irrelevant here. There's parts of estates you certainly don't want to be going anywhere near as fast as 50kph, and other parts where you don't want to be going anywhere near as slow as 20. On the flip side, every single rural backroad in Ireland has a speed limit of 80kph. Do people drive at that speed on those roads? No, they don't, because they have the common sense to determine that 80 is far too fast there, just like people have the common sense not to go 50 in certain parts of estates.

Yeah_Right · 24-02-2015 12:43PM

Pinch Flat wrote: »

If I was to drive the 200 m through my estate to the main road at 20 km/hr, it would take me 24 seconds. At 30 km/hr it would take 36 seconds. I can live with the 12 seconds the lower speed takes from my day.

You might want to check your maths.

Pinch Flat · 24-02-2015 01:03PM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

You might want to check your maths.

Maths are right - got them mixed up, of course if I'm travelling faster it would mean I will cover the 200m quicker at 30 kph (24 seconds) rather than the slower 20kph (36 seconds).

Either way the result is the same - 12 seconds. I'll double it to 24 seconds assuming I go to and from the same place.

Laois_Man · 24-02-2015 01:30PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

Conditions can also mean bends in the road, road surface, cars parked etc, it's not just weather.

In my eyes the speed limit is largely irrelevant here. There's parts of estates you certainly don't want to be going anywhere near as fast as 50kph, and other parts where you don't want to be going anywhere near as slow as 20. On the flip side, every single rural backroad in Ireland has a speed limit of 80kph. Do people drive at that speed on those roads? No, they don't, because they have the common sense to determine that 80 is far too fast there, just like people have the common sense not to go 50 in certain parts of estates.

Yes, many do!

Laois_Man · 24-02-2015 01:40PM

SeanW wrote: »

Again, I'm just going by what I read, which is that the driver in question paid no heed to either the posted limit or safety. Excuse me for coming to the sane conclusion from that which is that - if true - the driver was a twat and the limit was completely irrelevant.

"It's a limit, not a target"

I.E. a speed limit that's too high isn't a problem because it's a maximum limit, i.e. you're supposed to go slower if conditions warrant. A speed limit that's too low does not have the same flexibility because it isn't supposed to be exceeded even if circumstances show a higher speed would be safe and proportionate.

That said, 30kph may be appropriate in some cases. But 20kph is just taking the piss.

Edit: BTW, if you could safely travel at 35kph then the 50 limit is valid, because 50 is the next step up from 30.

You shouldn't be believing everything you read on a site like Boards.ie
That's what is not sane about your conclusion!

A speed limit that is too high IS a problem because people DO see it as a target - and at times, it is very difficult to prosecute them when they get into an accident below that speed....because judgement of safety is subjective. There are no circumstances where a limit of over 30 KPH can be unsafe one day and safe the next day in a housing estate. If that was the case, why even have a speed limit of 120 KPH on a motorway!

And I have no idea what you mean by if you can safely travel at 35KPH or what it has to do with anything.

The_Captain · 24-02-2015 01:42PM

Pinch Flat wrote: »

If I was to drive the 200 m through my estate to the main road at 20 km/hr, it would take me 24 seconds. At 30 km/hr it would take 36 seconds. I can live with the 12 seconds the lower speed takes from my day.

What's your upper limit on time wastage? Why not walk to work and save more lives?

Pinch Flat · 24-02-2015 01:51PM

The_Captain wrote: »

What's your upper limit on time wastage? Why not walk to work and save more lives?

Yeah cos everyones in such a rush these days and that 24 seconds you will never get back. And a journey in a car as we all know is so much more important than everyone else's anyway.

It takes me 35 minutes to cycle the 14km to work - driving could take 1 - 1.5 hours depending on the magnitude of the cluster fcuk you encounter along the way. You are righ thoug - In some cases walking can be quicker than driving in rush hour traffic. I used to regularly walk 10km daily to and from work in a previous job.

24 seconds I wouldn't consider a huge imposition over a 2 hour plus return car commute. That's if I was crazy enough to take it on. Others differ I guess.

The_Captain · 24-02-2015 02:13PM

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Yeah cos everyones in such a rush these days and that 24 seconds you will never get back. And a journey in a car as we all know is so much more important than everyone else's anyway.

It takes me 35 minutes to cycle the 14km to work - driving could take 1 - 1.5 hours depending on the magnitude of the cluster fcuk you encounter along the way. You are righ thoug - In some cases walking can be quicker than driving in rush hour traffic. I used to regularly walk 10km daily to and from work in a previous job.

24 seconds I wouldn't consider a huge imposition over a 2 hour plus return car commute. That's if I was crazy enough to take it on. Others differ I guess.

Slower will pretty much always mean safer and it's on a sliding scale. Why are you so adamant on 20kmph, you could drop it to 15 and be safer. You could drop it to 5 and be safer.

Patrick2010 · 24-02-2015 02:14PM

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Yeah cos everyones in such a rush these days and that 24 seconds you will never get back. And a journey in a car as we all know is so much more important than everyone else's anyway.

It takes me 35 minutes to cycle the 14km to work - driving could take 1 - 1.5 hours depending on the magnitude of the cluster fcuk you encounter along the way. You are righ thoug - In some cases walking can be quicker than driving in rush hour traffic. I used to regularly walk 10km daily to and from work in a previous job.

24 seconds I wouldn't consider a huge imposition over a 2 hour plus return car commute. That's if I was crazy enough to take it on. Others differ I guess.

Just a question but after you leave your estate do you go through residential areas that have kids living on them?, areas where people might walk in front of you without thinking?. Shouldn't you drive at 20 kph in those areas?.
I recently drove from Templeogue to Stillorgan (through Ballyroan,Nutgrove, Dundrum) recently and went through lots of residential areas with children and adults, is 20 kph a realistic speed for that kind of a drive?, where do you draw the line?

Pinch Flat · 24-02-2015 02:16PM

The_Captain wrote: »

Slower will pretty much always mean safer and it's on a sliding scale. Why are you so adamant on 20kmph, you could drop it to 15 and be safer. You could drop it to 5 and be safer.

I guess so. Speed is a huge factor in road deaths.

I would say that the traffic that trundles trough Dublin City centre at those speeds in pretty safe. In all my years of cycling in the city centre I've never come across a multi vehicle pile up. So it has its upsides as well.

But we are talking about a 20 kph limit here. People will accept it, others will resist it, what's your own driving style? Up the rear of someone who dares stay within the limit and overtake at the earliest opportunity, or chill out and plan your journey accordingly?

Dog of Tears · 24-02-2015 02:25PM

The_Captain wrote: »

Slower will pretty much always mean safer and it's on a sliding scale. Why are you so adamant on 20kmph, you could drop it to 15 and be safer. You could drop it to 5 and be safer.

The law of diminishing returns.

Pinch Flat · 24-02-2015 02:36PM

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Just a question but after you leave your estate do you go through residential areas that have kids living on them?, areas where people might walk in front of you without thinking?. Shouldn't you drive at 20 kph in those areas?.
I recently drove from Templeogue to Stillorgan (through Ballyroan,Nutgrove, Dundrum) recently and went through lots of residential areas with children and adults, is 20 kph a realistic speed for that kind of a drive?, where do you draw the line?

I live in quite a large estate that is made up of houses, apartments and townhouses. It is laid out along the "Essex Design" principles - so my own area is a cul-de-sac off the main road, as many of them are. It consists of meandering roads, designed to slow traffic. Ideal for keeping to lower limits.

Once I'm on the main road as such it's a road more suited for a 50 km/hr limit - but as I said earlier it's impossible to maintain these speeds without (more often than not) aggressive tailgating, overtaking etc. The roads have had traffic calming fitted to try and reduce what was quote a big speeding problem.

Some other estates adjoining us are a mix of older areas - perhaps laid out in the 70's and 80's. Over time, they've become merged so what was once an estate access road is now a main thorough fare or rat run to another road. Things have slowly gotten better with new distribution roads that can maintain faster speeds.

So I guess I drive to the conditions - long straight road with plenty of set back and good visibility - 50 km/hr no problem. Other areas with cars parked on the roads, poor sight lines and more options for kids to dart out perhaps slower. Also summer time / longer evenings I'm more cautious - plenty of kids out kicking balls, chasing each other and doing what kids so - so plenty of chance for one to stray out in front of me.

Pherekydes · 24-02-2015 03:09PM

Pinch Flat wrote: »

If I was to drive the 200 m through my estate to the main road at 20 km/hr, it would take me 24 seconds. At 30 km/hr it would take 36 seconds. I can live with the 12 seconds the lower speed takes from my day.

This is the best bit of maths I've seen on boards, ever.

Pinch Flat · 24-02-2015 03:17PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

This is the best bit of maths I've seen on boards, ever.

Typo more than a maths problem.

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Maths are right - got them mixed up, of course if I'm travelling faster it would mean I will cover the 200m quicker at 30 kph (24 seconds) rather than the slower 20kph (36 seconds).

Either way the result is the same - 12 seconds. I'll double it to 24 seconds assuming I go to and from the same place.

But carry on :pac:

jack presley · 24-02-2015 03:41PM

You haven't factored in the time/distance it takes you to accelerate to 20 and 30kmph into your calculations so can you take another look and let us know the real time savings please?

Pinch Flat · 24-02-2015 03:53PM

jack presley wrote: »

You haven't factored in the time/distance it takes you to accelerate to 20 and 30kmph into your calculations so can you take another look and let us know the real time savings please?

Oh yeah, silly me. it's going to take another 5 seconds to accelerate. Lets double it to get there and back. That's going to be make or break in someone's commute. :rolleyes:

That's makes 3 budding sub-editors for my posts. Are you all available?

CramCycle · 24-02-2015 05:31PM

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Oh yeah, silly me. it's going to take another 5 seconds to accelerate. Lets double it to get there and back. That's going to be make or break in someone's commute. :rolleyes:

That's makes 3 budding sub-editors for my posts. Are you all available?

Actually, over a short distance, while the acceleration/deceleration will increase the time in your car in your estate. The presumption that you will also decelerate to stop before leaving means that while noting it will take longer than you thought, they will not be as far apart, relatively speaking, as you have presumed.

Pinch Flat · 24-02-2015 05:37PM

CramCycle wrote: »

Actually, over a short distance, while the acceleration/deceleration will increase the time in your car in your estate. The presumption that you will also decelerate to stop before leaving means that while noting it will take longer than you thought, they will not be as far apart, relatively speaking, as you have presumed.

Ok I'll run the figures with a micra and a bmw m5 and come back.

Maybe factor in wind resistance and coefficient of drag for the pedants on the thread :pac:

CramCycle · 24-02-2015 05:56PM

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Ok I'll run the figures with a micra and a bmw m5 and come back :pac:

So long as your not in an Audi as this invalidates the entire test, as you would have to hit 1.5times the speed limit in the area, as well as only stop at junctions where you are not first in the queue as your warranty will be invalidated otherwise. Then of course you would have to also be on the phone, I presume to ring Audi to tell them your following all the rules of being an Audi driver :pac: :pac: :pac:

paulbok · 24-02-2015 06:07PM

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Ok I'll run the figures with a micra and a bmw m5 and come back.

Maybe factor in wind resistance and coefficient of drag for the pedants on the thread :pac:

Just wear your own clothes.

Pinch Flat · 24-02-2015 06:22PM

paulbok wrote: »

Just wear your own clothes.

But the windows would be up on the car

See what you did there:pac:

Cienciano · 24-02-2015 06:25PM

This thread is crazy. First of all, a child is someone under 18.

LexieOnRale wrote: »

THE ROAD IS NOT A SAFE PLACE FOR A CHILD TO PLAY.
The garden, the park, the green. They're all safe places to play.
The road was build as a thoroughfare for mechanically propelled vehicles, not as a playground.

Parents/Guardians need to accept responsibility for their own child and if they are on the road, they need to be supervised.

You cannot place the sole responsibility of your Childs life with a total stranger.
You cannot blame a motorist 100% for the death (God forbid) of a child if the child's parents placed the child in a place that it was reasonable to forsee danger.

You cannot supervise a child all the time. It's impossible.

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Haha it's "victim blaming" to expect a parent to mind their sprogs. What a complete idiotic statement. Are you the type of parent that would call a solicitor before an ambulance?

I can't believe you actually think chilfren should be allowed play on the road and their parents free from all responsibility? This is what's wrong with this country.

Of course they can. A parent can't be responsible for a child running onto a road. Next you'll be saying everyone under 18 should have an adult around at all times

26sdrawkcab wrote: »

I don't think anybody is saying that kids shouldn't play outside, that sort of nonsense statement is ridiculous and taking things to the extreme. I think everyone can agree that kids should of course be allowed play on the green areas around where they live. People are saying kids should not treat the roadway, where vehicles are being driven, as a playground. People are saying that kids should be supervised when outside playing on the green areas. And of course all children should be taught about how to use the footpaths and roadway safely etc.
Of course instances can happen where a ball is kicked out onto the roadway and that is where a supervising adult comes into it.

How many of you can say that when your children are outside playing there is at least one adult supervising keeping an eye on everybody and everything? Not just to avoid kids running into the roadway and into the path of cars, but to avoid kids picking on each other, excluding anyone, fighting, hurting other kids, "stranger danger" etc. When your kids are playing in the school yard it is expected that a teacher be supervising them to avoid any of the stuff I just mentioned.

Jesus wept, you're actually suggesting that an "adult" should have to accompany children everywhere they go!
All this to avoid having to drive at 20kph in estates! :eek:

Pherekydes · 24-02-2015 06:27PM

Pinch Flat wrote: »

That's makes 3 budding sub-editors for my posts. Are you all available?

For what? A fight behind the bike shed?

Pinch Flat · 24-02-2015 06:32PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

For what? A fight behind the bike shed?

I suggest a run at 20kph. Last man standing is the winner.

Pherekydes · 24-02-2015 07:27PM

Pinch Flat wrote: »

I suggest a run at 20kph. Last man standing is the winner.

You win. I give in now, then.

Capt'n Midnight · 24-02-2015 07:30PM

a little out of date but pretty much all commuter routes into the city centre average less than 20Km/h just in case anyone is under the delusion that leaving the estate is the bottleneck :rolleyes:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/stuck-in-second-gear-the-commuting-nightmare-25956833.html

Patrick2010 · 24-02-2015 07:39PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

a little out of date but pretty much all commuter routes into the city centre average less than 20Km/h just in case anyone is under the delusion that leaving the estate is the bottleneck :rolleyes:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/stuck-in-second-gear-the-commuting-nightmare-25956833.html

10 years out of date and only about commuter routes into the city centre at rush hour.

Ever tried driving at 20 km/h (12 mph) for long?

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