CID on less than 22hrs

mirrorwall14 · 18-02-2015 2:30pm #1

I received a CID this year for less than 18hrs. On involvement of the Union this was increased to 22hrs

I would just like to draw teachers attention to the following:
-RPT hours in your subject/s should not go to new members of staff-they should be used to increase your CID
-You should be requesting (in writing) additional hours every year. Do not wait for them to be assigned.
-be aware of situations where principals are using fixed purpose hours to keep your CID below 18hrs.

The relevant circular is 34/09.

"Where the combined number of permanent/CID teachers is less than the number of approved permanent posts (expressed in wholetime equivalents), the filling of a permanent post may arise. Where such a vacancy occurs, the employer shall apply the following options in the sequence shown to the filling of such posts:

(c) consider an opportunity, the qualification requirements of the post permitting, for a teacher employed on a CID in a part-time capacity to undertake additional hours up to but not exceeding full-time hours (see * below)

These options having been exhausted, any permanent post(s) remaining unfilled shall be advertised by the employer and filled through a formal recruitment process using the standard procedures and criteria for the filling of such posts including the filling of a part-time post on a permanent basis.
* As far as possible, employers should give consideration to requests by workers to transfer from part-time to full-time work or to increase their working time should the opportunity arise. In doing so, as with all teaching appointments, employers must have regard to the curricular needs of the school and the qualifications required for the post."

Do not just sit back if you have a part time CID. Yes some principals are great and may get it increased for you but it is YOUR career at stake. Make the request every year. Ask why you aren't being increased. Address any shortcomings (eg single subject teacher).

Join the union. Yes the fees are a lot when you are part time but consider the pay benefit-in my case there's a massive difference between a 17hr CID and 22hrs! It has more than paid for itself and I had got nowhere when questioning it on my own.

Good luck to everyone with contracts this year-I hope you all get to the stage where like me, for the first time I am not stressed about next year or needing to move schools or apply for full time posts!

wolfyboy555 · 18-02-2015 6:24pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I received a CID this year for less than 18hrs. On involvement of the Union this was increased to 22hrs

I would just like to draw teachers attention to the following:
-RPT hours in your subject/s should not go to new members of staff-they should be used to increase your CID
-You should be requesting (in writing) additional hours every year. Do not wait for them to be assigned.
-be aware of situations where principals are using fixed purpose hours to keep your CID below 18hrs.

The relevant circular is 34/09.

"Where the combined number of permanent/CID teachers is less than the number of approved permanent posts (expressed in wholetime equivalents), the filling of a permanent post may arise. Where such a vacancy occurs, the employer shall apply the following options in the sequence shown to the filling of such posts:

(c) consider an opportunity, the qualification requirements of the post permitting, for a teacher employed on a CID in a part-time capacity to undertake additional hours up to but not exceeding full-time hours (see * below)

These options having been exhausted, any permanent post(s) remaining unfilled shall be advertised by the employer and filled through a formal recruitment process using the standard procedures and criteria for the filling of such posts including the filling of a part-time post on a permanent basis.
* As far as possible, employers should give consideration to requests by workers to transfer from part-time to full-time work or to increase their working time should the opportunity arise. In doing so, as with all teaching appointments, employers must have regard to the curricular needs of the school and the qualifications required for the post."

Do not just sit back if you have a part time CID. Yes some principals are great and may get it increased for you but it is YOUR career at stake. Make the request every year. Ask why you aren't being increased. Address any shortcomings (eg single subject teacher).

Join the union. Yes the fees are a lot when you are part time but consider the pay benefit-in my case there's a massive difference between a 17hr CID and 22hrs! It has more than paid for itself and I had got nowhere when questioning it on my own.

Good luck to everyone with contracts this year-I hope you all get to the stage where like me, for the first time I am not stressed about next year or needing to move schools or apply for full time posts!

Who do you write to when repeating extra hours? I am in an etb school. I am just over 18hours in my school this year in my 3rd year. However I still have not received my contract so I don't know what they will have in it. Last year some of my hours were 'specific purpose' and can be used as 'objectionable grounds' to not grant a CID.

mirrorwall14 · 18-02-2015 6:32pm

wolfyboy555 wrote: »

Who do you write to when repeating extra hours? I am in an etb school. I am just over 18hours in my school this year in my 3rd year. However I still have not received my contract so I don't know what they will have in it. Last year some of my hours were 'specific purpose' and can be used as 'objectionable grounds' to not grant a CID.

You would be requesting hours from your principal. By putting it in writing, an email would probably be fine-it's just to have a record of officially having requested the increase in case in the future it came down to a "he said, she said" arguement.

Specific purpose hours will likely not form part of your CID but there is nothing to stop you asking the principal if those hours could be changed or moved on so to speak, to enable you to increase your CID. It may not be possible but As they say, 'if you aren't in, you can't win'.

wolfyboy555 · 18-02-2015 6:41pm

Yes I think I will do that when I receive my contract this year. Getting a full time CID would be a big weight off my shoulders but won't take anything for granted until I see it in writing. Thanks for the advice.

r93kaey5p2izun · 23-02-2015 1:17am

Your post is very interesting mirrorwall and offers some good advice and encouragement. Thanks.

I'm interested to know your experience of involving the union in your case in terms of relations with your principal afterwards. How did principal react? Do you feel there is any tension or bad feeling since?

And do you think now in hindsight that your principal was deliberately keeping your CID lower than it should be? Or was it all down to technicalities and bureaucracy? Or maybe it was more BOM or ETB policy that's dictating this drive to avoid awarding proper contracts? Would you have believed in the past (until this issue came to light this year) that your principal was giving you the best hours available?

Sorry for all the questions but I'm delighted for you and also intrigued to hear about a positive outcome for once. It's such a difficult and tricky area for part time/temporary teachers dealing with management re contracts and hours. So difficult to wade through the complex web and find what's true and what's bull! And who's really up front and who's dishonest - when to keep your head down and when to rock the boat.

mirrorwall14 · 23-02-2015 1:36am

Kaleb Ambitious Smooch wrote: »

Your post is very interesting mirrorwall and offers some good advice and encouragement. Thanks.

I'm interested to know your experience of involving the union in your case in terms of relations with your principal afterwards. How did principal react? Do you feel there is any tension or bad feeling since?

And do you think now in hindsight that your principal was deliberately keeping your CID lower than it should be? Or was it all down to technicalities and bureaucracy? Or maybe it was more BOM or ETB policy that's dictating this drive to avoid awarding proper contracts? Would you have believed in the past (until this issue came to light this year) that your principal was giving you the best hours available?

Sorry for all the questions but I'm delighted for you and also intrigued to hear about a positive outcome for once. It's such a difficult and tricky area for part time/temporary teachers dealing with management re contracts and hours. So difficult to wade through the complex web and find what's true and what's bull! And who's really up front and who's dishonest - when to keep your head down and when to rock the boat.

I had no problems involving the Union and no bad feelings asfaik or haven't noticed, relationship is as normal.

I don't believe it was entirely intentional, more like naïveté on the part of the principal as to the consequences for the teacher of having fixed purpose hours forming part of my 22hrs to my long term prospects. From their perspective it was great that I had 22hrs, it wasn't appreciated that 17hrs of CID and 5 fixed purpose hours meant that my CID would have been stuck at less than a full time contract for possibly multiple years. I don't believe it was malicious but having said that, my discussing it before I went to the union didn't have any impact.

I do wonder if there is a wider policy either at school level or possibly ETB regarding RPT and CID part time contracts being brought up to 22 by fixed purpose contracts as a way of avoiding increasing the actual CID. There really is a disgraceful level of part timers across my ETB, I cannot say if it is replicated in secondary schools. I would estimate that a good 50% of our staff are non CID/permanent and a large proportion of those, say 30% are on very low part time hours. This may well be fixed however by the coming circular from Haddington road. I will say it could be hilarious watching schools this summer if it turns out that circular requires all part time staff positions to be advertised and reinterviewed-schools will be interviewing all summer!

Personally I feel that no one should hold back from 'rocking' the boat so to speak, definitely after 2 years in the school anyways. Either your principal and management want to keep you at that stage or they don't. Requesting full time hours is really looking out for yourself and it is important for your own future.

seavill · 23-02-2015 1:20pm

I worked in a VEC in the past and it was a policy from them to give people random things to make up their hours, which caused people problems with contracts that you describe above.

For example I replaced someone who had retired after 30 years service on a full 22 hour contract. I was not given these 22 hours I was given 22 hours made up of traveller allocation, SEN allocation, resource hours the concessionary hours a school gets plus I had 3 hours from 3 different people, that were on secondment, career break etc.

The VEC tried to justify that part by saying that if the person returned from career break for example then no one would lose a job but several people would just lose a few hours. The same with the different allocations these meant that those hours would not count towards CID at the time.

To us it was a way of the VEC messing us about and not giving CIDs.

mirrorwall14 · 23-02-2015 4:50pm

I have to agree seavill, I genuinely wonder sometimes about the splitting of contracts in particular. I know of a career break of a single subject teacher-four teachers are sharing those hours, a maternity with two subjects-three teachers are sharing those. These are not isolated incidents in schools across the country.

I understand that it makes timetabling easier and some principals will argue that it means giving something to those teachers rather than nothing but tbh it's not enough to live on, particularly now when there is so little substitution available to supplement it. Jobs should be filled to the 22hrs and splits should be avoided in so far as possible imo

r93kaey5p2izun · 23-02-2015 4:54pm

Thanks very much for your reply mirrorwall, very interesting. Your figures aren't too far off either - the Ward Report shows just over 49% of ETB teachers are not on permanent/CID full time contracts (compared to under 25% in voluntary/C&C sectors) and 40% are on part time hours of some form or other (compared to under 20% in voluntary/C&C sector).

I have also involved the union regarding trying to have my CID increased after 5 years since CID awarded but teaching full hours each year. It has turned into a huge debacle with principal saying they won't discuss it, ETB blaming principal. My principal has been very difficult since and is very clear that they believe the best interests of the school are served by having as many part time teachers as possible. There are several part timers teaching same subjects so circular is completely ignored. Principal implied I should have kept my mouth shut and would have been looked after eventually but after 9 years I think I've waited long enough. I think I have to take it personally because as you say they either want to keep you or they don't, but at the same time there are dozens of others in the same situation.

At this stage I have more or less decided to leave - but it's very daunting to give up CID. It's also a very large ETB and advice from a friend's father who is DP in another school is that I wouldn't be considered for any other posts within this ETB as I will either be seen to have caused hassle and left school or be not worthy of better contracts as there must be a reason principal won't commit. I love my job but I feel there is no future now and really I have to leave teaching.

mirrorwall14 · 23-02-2015 4:57pm

Kaleb Ambitious Smooch wrote: »

Thanks very much for your reply mirrorwall, very interesting. Your figures aren't too far off either - the Ward Report shows just over 49% of ETB teachers are not on permanent/CID full time contracts (compared to under 25% in voluntary/C&C sectors) and 80% are on part time hours of some form or other (compared to under 20% in voluntary/C&C sector).

I have also involved the union regarding trying to have my CID increased after 5 years since CID awarded but teaching full hours each year. It has turned into a huge debacle with principal saying they won't discuss it, ETB blaming principal. My principal has been very difficult since and is very clear that they believe the best interests of the school are served by having as many part time teachers as possible. There are several part timers teaching same subjects so circular is completely ignored. Principal implied I should have kept my mouth shut and would have been looked after eventually but after 9 years I think I've waited long enough. I think I have to take it personally because as you say they either want to keep you or they don't, but at the same time there are dozens of others in the same situation.

At this stage I have more or less decided to leave - but it's very daunting to give up CID. It's also a very large ETB and advice from a friend's father who is DP in another school is that I wouldn't be considered for any other posts within this ETB as I will either be seen to have caused hassle and left school or be not worthy of better contracts as there must be a reason principal won't commit. I love my job but I feel there is no future now and really I have to leave teaching.

9 years??! That is completely mental! It's very difficult as you say to leave the security. Have you considered applying for transfer within the ETB? You might have more luck in another school. Are the union helping your case? It sounds a bit like the school and ETB are passing the book between them!

evolving_doors · 23-02-2015 5:37pm

As regards staying 'sweet' with the principal by not involving the union... you'ld be surprised how many principal's have used the unions in the past (before they became principal). To my mind the ones who kick up a fuss are less likely to be messed around with. If the previous posters had done nothing would their lot have improved!

r93kaey5p2izun · 23-02-2015 5:40pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

9 years??! That is completely mental! It's very difficult as you say to leave the security. Have you considered applying for transfer within the ETB? You might have more luck in another school. Are the union helping your case? It sounds a bit like the school and ETB are passing the book between them!

Yes 9 years. Got part time CID after 4 years ( and was delighted) but no improvement since. Union have said they think the case would actually have to go to court and not sure of winning so I didn't go that far. It's very complicated with no contracts issued in several years (meaning hours were not designated as not eligible for CID) but then they were produced as being on file in ETB as if they had been issued at the time (and they then contained objective grounds). Union have also failed to tackle issue of new part time teachers being given RPT hours instead of teachers already there - flexibility of timetable and needs of school being cited as valid excuses.

I'm considering transfer so I could keep CID but feel ETB itself is probably part of issue and also being advised that spending 9 years stuck without proper contract makes me a unattractive prospect to other principals. Also many teachers within school applying for transfer for years and never granted so it seems unlikely.

Anyway I'm actually glad to hear a success story and maybe it's a local issue and there is hope after all.

**Just to note also that I had typed 80 instead of 40 in my post you quoted but this was a typo and I have since edited for accuracy.**

theLuggage · 23-02-2015 8:18pm

That's awful! 9 years and I'd be pushing as hard as I could for what I'm entitled to. Principals don't last forever and if you can apply for transfer that's great. Voluntary redeployment might be another option and a way of keeping your CID intact.

In my own experience my union contact was fabulous but I have heard that it can vary depending who is in charge of your area and it probably varies between unions. My own principal was very supportive of my push for full hour CID and didn't contest anything. I think it's very unfair when principals don't look after their staff - how are you supposed to continue on less than full hours in terms of mortgage, starting a family etc? I hope you get sorted soon in a way that suits you best

astras · 13-05-2015 8:51am

mirrorwall14

Great post, thanks for it. I am teaching 15 hours CID now and another 2 hours are fixed term, with the remaining being miscellaneous hours. I am going to write to Principal requesting an increase in CID hours.

"Do not just sit back if you have a part time CID. Yes some principals are great and may get it increased for you but it is YOUR career at stake. Make the request every year. Ask why you aren't being increased. Address any shortcomings (eg single subject teacher)".

What do you mean by address any shortcomings?

mirrorwall14 · 13-05-2015 11:52am

astras wrote: »

mirrorwall14

Great post, thanks for it. I am teaching 15 hours CID now and another 2 hours are fixed term, with the remaining being miscellaneous hours. I am going to write to Principal requesting an increase in CID hours.

"Do not just sit back if you have a part time CID. Yes some principals are great and may get it increased for you but it is YOUR career at stake. Make the request every year. Ask why you aren't being increased. Address any shortcomings (eg single subject teacher)".

What do you mean by address any shortcomings?

Just means like I know a teacher who has requested an increase but legitimately refused on the basis that they only have one teachable subject and he doesn't have the hours to give!

astras · 13-05-2015 1:34pm

ok cheers!

CID on less than 22hrs

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