Ever tried driving at 20 km/h (12 mph) for long?

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Seems to work in the Netherlands, Spain and Germany (of the EU countries I've visited and have first hand experience of anyway - I'm sure there are more). They also have to deal with the concept of "strict liability" in a lot of these jurisdictions when it comes to injury by cars of pedestrians, cyclists etc - a concept that would scare the bejebus out of a country that sees the car as the be all and end all and avert thing bows before it, revels in victim blaming and shirks personal responsibility at most junctures.

Love the pseudo integelligent argument that goes on in this forum where if some other European countries have something implemented it must be a good idea for Ireland.

The_Valeyard wrote: »

How about the opposite so? Would you also be in favour of introducing the autobahn style of no speed limits? Since it works well in other countries why not have that on the M4, M6, M1, etc

Driving standards are waaaaaaaaaaay higher on the continent. It would mean instant carnage here. People can't even merge or even use the overtaking lane properly here ffs

Pinch Flat wrote: »

I was replying to your assertion that who ever implements this needs their head examined - empirical evidence from our EU neighbours is a reasonable comparison. But yeah let's ignore the precedent set in other EU countries. I've always said we are more socially immature than our EU peers and some of the comments on here bear out my hypothesis on this.

We seem to adopt a different model - the car is king and all that goes before it should bow in respect. Less of the victim blaming and deflection from what is after all basic personal responsibility would go a long way.

This car is king claptrap is a strawman argument. Maybe you'd rather the EU make all our social decisions for us. Abortions, prostitution, dope and autobahns for everyone!! Empirical evidence supporting all those aswell

Most kids in estates are not supervised and of them a lot should be.

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Yeah no don't agree and the "car is king" is not a straw man argument.

It's is a fact that we are the most car dependent country in europe (well next to Cyprus anyway). We have the car as the primary means of transport for every aspect of our life - people working, school children and second and third level students. Often these journeys can easily be taken by alternative more sustainable means.

So it's a fair observation to see how the omnipresence of the car as the be all and end all and wow betide anyone that tries to impose some sort of safe use gets met with a hostile reception.

These measures have been implemented in Europe with little fanfare where people have a more mature out look societally and take more personal responsibility - a trait that is lacking in our national psyche.

Some sort of safe use? Some? What drivel!

whupdedo wrote: »

I can't link, but driving standards in Ireland are pretty good compared to the continent, 27th overall worldwide and 6th in Europe on deaths per capita (6.1 per 100000) which is fairly decent,

I never get this nonsense that simply because it's Ireland we're talking about then we must really be crap at everything and everyone else must be copied and held up as a how to excel in not being thick ignorant paddys

I'm speaking purely from personal experience. I think a lot of people from abroad who drive here would concur. Our driving standards on motorways is abysmal - perhaps not e ident in accident statistics (somw of the deicing paa rice is not dangerous per se - more just plain ignorant).

Drive from the north to the south of France by motorway, for example, then drive from Dublin to cork by the same means. Post back your observations.

doopa wrote: »

Have you ever driven in Spain or Italy? Personally would be in favour of 20km/h on estates and unlimited on the motorways.

Yep driven in most EU countries. We still lack a long way behind - so undertaking, lane hogging, driving at the inappropriate speed, non use of indicators. The list goes on.

Motorways are a relatively new introduction here so perhaps a bedding in period - simple things like lane discipline is going to blow some people's minds so you have to go easy on them.

Maybe there's some statistics to see how safe we are for each km of motorway when compared to our EU neighbours.

Unlimited speeds on motorways would be an unmitigated disaster here. You need to drive somewhere like germany to understand why this would be the case.

20 kph is no big deal - probably do it myself around my estate unwittingly given the amount of kids about - housing estate design should encourage this through road design and layout as it does in other countries anyway

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Yep driven in most EU countries. We still lack a long way behind - so undertaking, lane hogging, driving at the inappropriate speed, non use of indicators. The list goes on.

Motorways are a relatively new introduction here so perhaps a bedding in period - simple things like lane discipline is going to blow some people's minds so you have to go easy on them.

Maybe there's some statistics to see how safe we are for each km of motorway when compared to our EU neighbours.

Lane hogging is the only one we are worse at IMO.

Stats for speed limits - suggest that the fatalities are reduced with speed reductions.
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/may/13/speed-limits-reduce-number-road-deaths
And:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate
Ireland seems to come out pretty well both per km travelled & per car.

doopa wrote: »

Reckless behaviour should not be rewarded. Can you explain how it is rewarded in the example you showed?

Yeah I'm a bit puzzled as well perhaps seanw could clarify.

The 20kph thing doesn't need to be knee jerk - it could be introduced as a more holistic approach to housing estate design - but it would also need a huge change in personal and administrative attitudes. It would also take a huge shift away from our over dependence on the car which is not going to get any better over the next generation - if anything it's going to get worse.

SeanW wrote: »

You want to reward them by forcing passing motorists to act as babysitters.

Ah I see. Put the blame on the kids rather than the adults driving the one tonne plus vehicles. Gotcha

SeanW wrote: »

Children are the responsibility of their parents. It's the parents job to look after children, to protect them from ALL reasonable dangers. That includes cars being driven by licensed drivers at reasonable speeds.

You appear to be suggesting that it's reasonable for adults to allow irresponsible road use by children in their care and then expect innocent 3rd parties (motorists) to be punished with reduced speed limits and given the unpaid role of babysitter ... Gotcha.

Yes I see an adult as having more cop given their use of a potentially lethal vehicle. Other countries actually allow cars and children playing to intermingle without huge issues

They sort this out pretty sharp with the concept of strict liability in other jurisdictions. You hit a kid and unless you can prove the kid deliberately jumped in front of you you're pretty fcuked