How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

walshyn93 wrote: »

All that matters is that the argument is solid. Whether it's 'right' (subjective) or not is irrelevant to me.

I wasn't being snarky, mate.

The amount the Yes side win by is irrelevant, once the Yes vote is the majority. People in favour of a Yes vote will be more motivated to actually go out and vote if they feel the campaign is a true campaign for equality, and honest. To be an honest campaign the campaign must reflect the true diversity of LGB people. The people who support equal marriage will be enthused by this and more likely to vote. The no voters and don't know voters are irrelevant.

walshyn93 wrote: »

I don't think that would be the average person's version of an honest campaign.

So there's a diverse range of people part of LGBT but reflecting that = not honest.
However, telling everyone that gay people are all perfectly trimmed, perfect people = honest.
Really?

walshyn93 wrote: »

While the former is partly true - not the problem, but the main problem -I completely disagree with the bolded.

It's not though. The vast majority of people want to vote yes, even single poll suggests this. They know what gay people are or who they are or what being gay involves. At least, enough know. It's only really the no side that seem to thing being gay also means being some sort of alien species but it's energy wasted actively trying to convert people.

This state is called a republic, and as i believe in a republic thn fairness and equality applies to all.

walshyn93 wrote: »

Phhhhfffff. bollocks. Never heard so much bollocks in my life. We see whitewashed images of minorities all the time.

It's not a dangerous tactic. Not one bit. Not a single No voter would come out and complain that twinks and bears aren't being represented fairly in this debate. Not one.

In fact if they did they'd find themselves rather trapped for insinuating that gay people were inherently different from straight people.

You haven't been reading my posts very well. I'm specifically talking about motivating yes supporters to go out and vote. If I supported something and I felt the campaign for something I supported lied or misrepresented what I support that would do the opposite of motivate me.

walshyn93 wrote: »

I'm right you're wrong.


That's all folks.

Best summary of your posts all thread.

Zen65 wrote: »

Brilliant post, Bannasidhe.

I agree with the points you make, but worry that those points are really separate from the issue of the referendum on SSM. Yes, Ireland (and most of the world) has very backward views about many aspects of humanity, these being mostly a product of our catholic ancestry. Those views are changing though, as the influence of the churches has declined greatly and we get more exposure to wider cultures. There is a great deal to be gained from diversity, but shoving diversity into the faces of the Irish is far less effective than simply allowing diverse cultures to integrate into the Irish cultures peacefully.

If we want same-sex relations to be seen on a fully equal footing we must firstly remove the prohibition on marriage. This will not solve all of those issues that you describe so powerfully in your post, but it will be another step towards integration and understanding, and that has to be good. There is no panacea for the plight of minorities whether be they cultural, linguistic, religious, sexual or racial minorities. We can encourage people to move forward at the pace they can manage.

If you're old enough to remember Larry Grayson then you've already seen a lot of change

It's separate if one believes the only difference between gay and straight is who one has sex with - which is to reduce both a being defined by nothing but sex.

Maybe for some that is true - but would you be happy that the sole criteria by how you are defined is who you have sex with?
Everything else can be abandoned as unimportant? Your culture is essentially meaningless?

That is an easy thing to advocate when you are part of the majority culture because most people don't even realise they have a culture until they find themselves removed from it. Ever hear of culture shock?

Not every person who identifies as Gay is involved in Gay culture or the Gay community - however, everyone who is able to live their lives out of the closet owes that to the Gay community and it's lack of conformity.

There has been change yes - but that change was won by those who wouldn't look 'nice' or, what that really means 'straight'. It was the diesel dykes and the drag queens who wouldn't 'pass' and chose to fight back at Stonewall who launched the Gay Liberation Movement.

It was Harvey Milk who showed we were electable.

When Thatcher brought in Clause 28 the response was Bronski Beat, Pet Shop Boys, Frankie Goes to Hollywood and a vibrant queer culture.

The man who battled to decriminalise Male homosexuality in Ireland wasn't 'nice' - he was (still is) flamboyant, prone to theatricality and has his moments of high camp.

Now, our 'Marianne' is a Drag Queen.


So what if some men are screaming queens?
Some men are beer bellied Man U fans.
Both are cultural stereotypes but only one gets accused of 'shoving it in people's faces' (effin Man U fans :mad: - gods, I hate soccer!)

To my way of thinking advocating that gay people act less 'gay' is homophobic. It is saying your cultural stereotypes are lesser/make people uncomfortable so you should act like the majority. Says more about those who get uncomfortable than those allegedly doing the 'shoving'.

Would you tell a black person to act less 'black'?
Would you tell a Jew to not use Yiddish expressions and eat that bacon and cabbage you're in Ireland now?


We are not at this point where we are holding a Referendum on SSM because Irish Gay people were 'nice' and didn't act Gay - those were the Pat Carey's of this world. We are here because Gay Irish people took the Irish government to the ECHR. We are here because Gay Irish people refused to be 'nice' and demanded to be treated as equals and many of those who lead the charge learned how to do this in the UK while fighting against the Clause and Thatcher in the 80s. We came home in the 90s because we are Irish and wanted to live in our own country and we are politically savvy and we do not intend to forget where we came from or who we are -no matter how uncomfortable our history makes people. We weren't going to change who are or what we were so Ireland had to change. And it did.

Not because we were 'nice' but because we were unashamedly out and people learned that were were not perverted quair divils but actually fabulously well dressed, artistic, good at DIY, funny, witty, charming, nice to our mammies people who knew where all the best clubs and restaurants were :pac:

For us to forget Stonewall and act 'straight' now would be akin to African -Americans forgetting Selma and acting 'white' because hey - we're all the same really....