Virgin Mary

Festus · 13-02-2015 12:06PM

homer911 wrote: »

Equating "full of grace" to perfection is too much of a leap for me I'm afraid. I could easily accept that an innocent, well brought up teenager, respectul to her elders and family, 2000 years ago, could be descibed as full of grace, but it doesnt make her perfect. Also using one verse in the Bible to build an entire doctrine around, when it adds nothing to the message of the gospel, is just going to far for me. I was honestly hoping for a more positive and definitiive answer but we will have to agree to disagree, and as I've already said, respect your right to believe it.

Someone has already referred to Romans 3:23..

Perhaps it was unclear but it is the Greek word that better describes her perfection rather than the translation we have of "full of grace".

The problem with reading the Bible in English alone and taking no account of the original text is that it does rather limit ones study and enlightenment. When one has a preference for personal interpretation rather than referring to a higher authority it is understandable that some confusion and disagreement can arise.

Festus · 13-02-2015 12:20PM

Safehands wrote: »

And that, dear folks, is exactly what happened. Every baby in the world is conceived "immaculately" ie; without original or any other sin on their perfect little souls. They are born as sinless, beautiful babies.

If there is no original sin where does our knowledge of good and evil come from?

Safehands · 13-02-2015 12:32PM

Festus wrote: »

If there is no original sin where does our knowledge of good and evil come from?

I would say largely from our upbringing. Learned behaviour and values from a very young age.
It certainly has nothing to do with Adam eating an apple in a mythical garden.

Festus · 13-02-2015 12:40PM

Safehands wrote: »

I would say largely from our upbringing. Learned behaviour and values from a very young age.

If people learn evil then it is an educational and formational issue.

If that is the case then it can be dealt with by ensuring children do not learn about evil.

Why haven't we done that?

katydid · 13-02-2015 01:18PM

Festus wrote: »

Perhaps it was unclear but it is the Greek word that better describes her perfection rather than the translation we have of "full of grace".

The problem with reading the Bible in English alone and taking no account of the original text is that it does rather limit ones study and enlightenment. When one has a preference for personal interpretation rather than referring to a higher authority it is understandable that some confusion and disagreement can arise.

So what IS the Greek word?

looksee · 13-02-2015 01:54PM

Festus wrote: »

If people learn evil then it is an educational and formational issue.

If that is the case then it can be dealt with by ensuring children do not learn about evil.

Why haven't we done that?

Because then children would not know what to do about it if they came across it.

Festus · 13-02-2015 02:02PM

looksee wrote: »

Because then children would not know what to do about it if they came across it.

Let's say you are teaching a child about evil so they would know what to do with it if they came across it, and the child want's to know where evil comes from. How do you explain that to a child?

Harika · 13-02-2015 02:56PM

Festus wrote: »

Let's say you are teaching a child about evil so they would know what to do with it if they came across it, and the child want's to know where evil comes from. How do you explain that to a child?

Evil comes from good itself, without good there is no evil and the other way around. Both need each other.

Festus · 13-02-2015 03:00PM

Harika wrote: »

Evil comes from good itself, without good there is no evil and the other way around. Both need each other.

That doesn't make any sense.

Can you elaborate and illustrate by way of a detailed example?

Harika · 13-02-2015 03:11PM

Festus wrote: »

That doesn't make any sense.

Can you elaborate and illustrate by way of a detailed example?

Sure there is this scene in Batman - The Dark Knight between Batman and Joker.

Batman: Then why do you want to kill me?
The Joker: [giggling] I don't, I don't want to kill you! What would I do without you? Go back to ripping off mob dealers? No, no, NO! No. You... you... complete me.

Without villains like Joker, Batman would not exist and without Batman, super villains like the Joker wouldn't exist. So both need each other to exist, both also cause each other at the same time. The same with good and evil, if there would be only good, how would you know that good is good? You need the opposite. Next you could ask what was first, evil or good, but the result is the same as with egg or chicken.

Deranged96 · 13-02-2015 03:13PM

Festus wrote: »

That doesn't make any sense.

Can you elaborate and illustrate by way of a detailed example?

Nothing can be good if nothing is evil... the concept of duality, which is found in religion, science and philosophy

If there was no light, nothing could be dark because its only by comparison with light that we know dark.

Deranged96 · 13-02-2015 03:14PM

Harika wrote: »

Sure there is this scene in Batman - The Dark Knight between Batman and Joker.

Without villains like Joker, Batman would not exist and without Batman, super villains like the Joker wouldn't exist. So both need each other to exist, both also cause each other at the same time. The same with good and evil, if there would be only good, how would you know that good is good? You need the opposite. Next you could ask what was first, evil or good, but the result is the same as with egg or chicken.

Beat me to it, this is far more articulately put

Harika · 13-02-2015 03:16PM

Deranged96 wrote: »

Beat me to it, this is far more articulately put

No yours is more articulately put, mine is just geeky. :cool:

mdebets · 13-02-2015 03:20PM

Festus wrote: »

We first hear of it in the Gospel of Luke

"And the angel came in unto her, and said, hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." - Luke 1:28

The Greek word used is kecharitomene and is translated as "full of grace" which is describing her perfection. To be perfect one has to be free of original sin. To be free of original sin God has to have intervened in her conception.

It's not as easy as you state. You mentioned in an earlier text, that reading the Bible in a translation might not get you the correct result, due to mistranslations. The same can be said here. It's unlikely that the angel Gabriel would have talked to Mary in Greek, he would have most likely talked to her in Aramaic. So, this speech in Luke (if we believe that it was an actual speech, rather than a later invention) is a translation of the Aramaic and we will never know, what the Angel said in the original speech.

Safehands · 13-02-2015 03:31PM

Festus wrote: »

If people learn evil then it is an educational and formational issue.

If that is the case then it can be dealt with by ensuring children do not learn about evil.

Why haven't we done that?

Boy Festus this is a deep topic. You really need a psychiatrist or psychologist to get a professional opinion.
However, in my opinion everybody is born with no traces of evil. As they develop, they learn certain types of behaviour. Maybe they have psychological problems, for whatever the reason. They behave outside the normal values society accepts. Sometimes their behaviour can be extreme and they may be viewed as bad or evil people.
I regard ISIS as the current personification of evil. Somehow though, I don't regard the man or woman, who sits in a room in Virginia and guides arial drones to bomb weddings or other "targets" 10,000 miles away, as being just as evil as the ISIS group. Why is that? Is it because I have been conditioned to think that they are not evil? Or is it Moral Relativism? People in the middle East are not as important as westerners.
It is a hell of a topic, but it has nothing to do with original sin.

Festus · 13-02-2015 03:46PM

Deranged96 wrote: »

Nothing can be good if nothing is evil... the concept of duality, which is found in religion, science and philosophy

If there was no light, nothing could be dark because its only by comparison with light that we know dark.

That still doesn't make sense. God is good and God does not need evil.
Jesus is good and does not need evil and the topic of this thread, the Virgin Mary, Holy Mary, Mother of God, is good and does not need evil.
While there is the concept of duality if I understand you correctly then what you are saying is that if evil is destroyed then good would cease to exist and that really doesn't make sense.

Further your analogy is nonsensical because dark does not exist, whereas evil does.

Harika · 13-02-2015 03:57PM

Festus wrote: »

That still doesn't make sense. God is good and God does not need evil.

I know people that might object that god is good. He might proclaim himself good but who would call someone who drowns nearly the whole earths population good?

Festus wrote: »

Jesus is good and does not need evil and the topic of this thread, the Virgin Mary, Holy Mary, Mother of God, is good and does not need evil.
While there is the concept of duality if I understand you correctly then what you are saying is that if evil is destroyed then good would cease to exist and that really doesn't make sense.

Further your analogy is nonsensical because dark does not exist, whereas evil does.

If there was no evil on earth, why did Jesus drop by? What was his reason to appear here on earth? Evil, so without evil Jesus wouldn't have been here, so he needs evil. Else no Jesus.

Deranged96 · 13-02-2015 03:57PM

Festus wrote: »

That still doesn't make sense. God is good and God does not need evil.
Jesus is good and does not need evil and the topic of this thread, the Virgin Mary, Holy Mary, Mother of God, is good and does not need evil.
While there is the concept of duality if I understand you correctly then what you are saying is that if evil is destroyed then good would cease to exist and that really doesn't make sense.

Further your analogy is nonsensical because dark does not exist, whereas evil does.

Explain the Devil to me

Festus · 13-02-2015 04:00PM

Deranged96 wrote: »

Explain the Devil to me

He is a fallen angel who chose evil.

Festus · 13-02-2015 04:02PM

Harika wrote: »

I know people that might object that god is good. He might proclaim himself good but who would call someone who drowns nearly the whole earths population good?

What was His reason for that action?

Harika wrote: »

If there was no evil on earth, why did Jesus drop by? What was his reason to appear here on earth? Evil, so without evil Jesus wouldn't have been here, so he needs evil. Else no Jesus.

It is true that if there was no evil on Earth there would have been no need for Jesus to have come to us but there is evil on earth. Where does it come from?

Deranged96 · 13-02-2015 04:04PM

Festus wrote: »

Further your analogy is nonsensical because dark does not exist, whereas evil does.

Dark does not exist?

My tracksuit is dark, night is dark, tar is dark

Show me evil?

Deranged96 · 13-02-2015 04:05PM

Festus wrote: »

He is a fallen angel who chose evil.

God hasn't got rid of him because?

Festus · 13-02-2015 04:11PM

Deranged96 wrote: »

Dark does not exist?

Deranged96 wrote: »

My tracksuit is dark, , tar is dark

No. These things have a colour. Light hits them, some is absorbed and some is reflected as a particular frequency of light that is perceived by receptors in your eyes and translated by your brain.
So while you can describe them as dark they are not actually dark - just not very bright.

Deranged96 wrote: »

night is dark

You're getting somewhere. Why is night dark?

Festus · 13-02-2015 04:14PM

Deranged96 wrote: »

God hasn't got rid of him because?

In what way do you mean "got rid of" ?

Deranged96 · 13-02-2015 04:14PM

Festus wrote: »

No. These things have a colour. Light hits them, some is absorbed and some is reflected as a particular frequency of light that is perceived by receptors in your eyes and translated by your brain.
So while you can describe them as dark they are not actually dark - just not very bright.

You're getting somewhere. Why is night dark?

Because there's no light, that's duality. I only know night is dark because day is bright ie. dark has an opposite.

So does good, it's evil
God-Devil
But does God=Devil?
If the answer is no then God needs evil, as he hasn't got rid of him.

Deranged96 · 13-02-2015 04:16PM

Festus wrote: »

In what way do you mean "got rid of" ?

I mean why does he have dominion on earth? Why does he have power here? Why isn't he turned to stone or some other Old-Testament style punishment?

Festus · 13-02-2015 04:26PM

Deranged96 wrote: »

Because there's no light, that's duality. I only know night is dark because day is bright ie. dark has an opposite.

But they are not equal because dark does not exist. Light exists physically, dark does not.

If you disagree show me dark overpowering light. Show me an instrument, tool, anything, that I can point at light and make light turn into dark.

Do you understand yet?

Dark does not exist because dark is nothing more than the absence of light. It is a concept and nothing more.

Light is good and exists without any need of the dark. Where there is light there is no dark.

Likewise Good can exist without evil and has no need of evil

Deranged96 · 13-02-2015 04:33PM

Festus wrote: »

But dark does not exist. Light exists physically, dark does not.

If you disagree show me dark overpowering light. Show me an instrument, tool, anything, that I can point at light and make light turn into dark.

Do you understand yet?

Dark does not exist because dark is nothing more than the absence of light. It is a concept and nothing more.

Light is good and exists without any need of the dark. Where there is light there is no dark.

Likewise Good does not need evil to existt.

Which brings me back to questioning why there's a devil?

Festus · 13-02-2015 04:52PM

Deranged96 wrote: »

Which brings me back to questioning why there's a devil?

The Devil is an angel who chose evil, apparently because of Pride.

Before that he was good and existed in the presence of God and with all the other angels and evil did not exist.

Deranged96 · 13-02-2015 04:59PM

Festus wrote: »

The Devil is an angel who chose evil, apparently because of Pride.

Before that he was good and existed in the presence of God and with all the other angels and evil did not exist.

Grand, but that doesn't really answer my question

Virgin Mary

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