22 years ago today. R.I.P James Bulger

iDave · 13-02-2015 10:33AM

Think I said this the last time we had a thread on it but you will never ever be able to make any sense of this. Well no normal person will, its just beyond our comprehension.
Nothing wrong with remembering it once a year though. If nothing else to remind ourselves of the complicated and sometimes deadly human mind-set.

lazygal · 13-02-2015 10:34AM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I don't have children yet, but I plan to some day. I have no experience of what it is like to carry, bear and love a child but I do know that if this happened to me, I couldn't go on. My godson's mother told me that within ten minutes of seeing him for the first time, she knew that if forced to choose, she would sacrifice her life for his. It was the most beautiful thing I ever heard. To love someone so much and then have them taken away so horribly...why would you want to go on?

Even when I was pregnant I told my husband for me there was no contest, save the baby at all costs. My older child is nearly three and James Bulger crosses my mind all the time. She went down the wrong aisle in a supermarket once and was frantic and upset when she couldn't find me. I don't even want to think about what that little boy went through. I'm actually welling up now thinking about it.

eviltwin · 13-02-2015 10:37AM

iDave wrote: »

Think I said this the last time we had a thread on it but you will never ever be able to make any sense of this. Well no normal person will, its just beyond our comprehension.
Nothing wrong with remembering it once a year though. If nothing else to remind ourselves of the complicated and sometimes deadly human mind-set.

If anything it gives me pause to count my blessings and remember how lucky I am. Life can change in a second. You never know when someone you love might be gone. I am going to be a lot easier with my kids today and hug them extra tight. Who knows what tomorrow will bring.

Menas · 13-02-2015 10:45AM

I lived near liverpool at the time all this happened. It had a massive impact on people at the time. We soaked up all the news we could get on the story. And then the shock when the two boys were arrested and convicted.
A real lump in the throat shock.

To the original point of this thread, it is hard to believe that it is 22 years ago no, it all still seems so recent.

Padraig Mor · 13-02-2015 11:23AM

One thing which I hadn't realised until relatively recently (I think there was a documentary a couple of years ago), was just how far they brought little Jamie away. For some reason I had formed the impression that they had taken him outside where they snatched him and killed him somewhere adjacent. In fact, they walked him a considerable distance away (over a mile IIRC), and fobbed off people who were concerned at Jamie's crying, before killing him. In other words, it wasn't a quick, spur of the moment thing, but coldly planned.

omega man · 13-02-2015 11:52AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

RIP James.

I really wish I hadn't read the details of the case, it's sickening and regardless of their age those two boys should never have been let out of prison.

What does it matter why the OP started this thread.....much worse threads have been started for much worse reasons.

Completely agree, what's the harm. I have 3 young kids and if anything I don't want to forget about that poor child and his family. For me it serves as a reminder to never get complacent when it comes to my children's whereabouts etc.

Neyite · 13-02-2015 11:56AM

JaseBelleVie wrote: »

Both Venables and Thompson had been abused (possibly sexually, but definitely physically), neglected, ignored and simply unloved by their families most of their lives. They, for some reason, chose to vent anger, frustration and trauma on a helpless toddler. Nobody will every truly know what exactly drove them to it, what made them do it. They even tried to bring Jamie back to life by putting batteries in his mouth; thinking that he was akin to a toy and that would work. They did not, perhaps, realise the gravity and horror of what they had done.

The above is a potential reason, not an excuse. Just before I get called a tree-hugger, lib-lab, pinko, criminal apologist or anything.

The mere fact that two 10 year old boys were tried as adults is simply mind boggling. That should never have happened in the first place. They did deserve to have consequences upon their heads, but being tried in the Old Bailey and being subjected to a trial that most adults would find traumatic was not the way to go.

The family of Jamie Bulger went through one of the worst and most horrendous experiences that a family can ever go through. It is not shocking that the marriage of Ralph and Denise Bulger did not survive the trauma.

There can be little doubt that both Robert Thompson and Jon Venables were two damaged, sick individuals. But at the age of 10, perhaps punishing them as if they were adults was not the way to go. Instead of flinging them into institutions where little to no proper psychological help was available, perhaps treating them properly would have had a better result. While Thompson has dropped off the radar completely and is obviously now a law-abiding citizen somewhere, most people know that Venables has turned into a recidivist and a consumer of child pornography. Why one has obviously been able to get on with his life and the other has not is up for debate.

A most awful and sickening case, every way you look at it. There was no outcome here that would let you think "At least justice was done". It most certainly was not.

I was 18 when this happened, so vividly remember the media frenzy. I was also too young to really grasp how a parent must feel in this situation. Some years later, I read a book written by one of the investigative officers which went into great detail about the case, and the offenders backgrounds. Now, especially with a toddler the same age James was, I'm filled with horror every time I think of it.

As far as I can recall, Thompson was the one who had the abusive and neglectful childhood, and since his release has not came to the attention of the police so we can assume he was successfully rehabilitated. At the time of the trial, it was widely assumed that he was the instigator, and Venables going along with it.

Venables, on the other hand, didn't grow up in a dysfunctional home the way Thompson did, and since his release, has came to the attention of the police several times - more recently for possession of child pornography. He also recently frequented dating sites under his new identity. I dont think that he is in any way rehabilitated and wonder if he is still a danger - moreso because nobody knows him.

I do believe that they should have gotten new identities, but the police are supposed to notify anyone who enters into a relationship with them of who they are though. It slipped through the net with Venables when they only informed a long term partner shortly before she gave birth to his child.

I'll remember James today. I'll remember a mother and father who has never, will never forget their son. Who thinks of him every day. Who are hurting because he should be a man now. Who faced horror I hope no parent every faces again and kept going bravely.

Ush1 · 13-02-2015 12:05PM

It's one of those stories you don't want to believe as a human, and especially as a parent.

As a father of a baby boy I can't even bear to think about it if it was my son.

Baron Kurtz · 13-02-2015 12:06PM

Fiery mutant wrote: »

The horror this boy went through fills me with an anger that I cannot describe, and a dread that haunts my soul.

If there really is an afterlife, then I hope this boy is being afforded the peace and security he was so cruelly denied here on earth.

He belongs at the top table.

What absolute twaddle! Dread that haunts your soul? Belongs at the top table? You sound like Gay Byrne.

Menas · 13-02-2015 12:08PM

Baron Kurtz wrote: »

What absolute twaddle! Dread that haunts your soul? Belongs at the top table? You sound like Gay Byrne.

You are coming to a thread about a murdered toddler and your contribution is to criticise peoples feeling on the subject? That is their opinion....can you not leave it at that?

OldNotWIse · 13-02-2015 12:22PM

Trigger Happy wrote: »

You are coming to a thread about a murdered toddler and your contribution is to criticise peoples feeling on the subject? That is their opinion....can you not leave it at that?

Some people need to put others down to make themselves feel better.

Baron Kurtz · 13-02-2015 12:37PM

Trigger Happy wrote: »

You are coming to a thread about a murdered toddler and your contribution is to criticise peoples feeling on the subject? That is their opinion....can you not leave it at that?

No one's opinion means a whole lot in these kinds of threads. It's full of half-arsed empathy and bleeding hearts anyway. True, I was mocking that poster's notion of afterlife, adding levity perhaps, but as for the murdered toddler I had nothing venal to contribute.

OldNotWIse · 13-02-2015 12:38PM

Baron Kurtz wrote: »

No one's opinion means a whole lot in these kinds of threads. It's full of half-arsed empathy and bleeding hearts anyway. True, I was mocking that poster's notion of afterlife, adding levity perhaps, but as for the murdered toddler I had nothing venal to contribute.

Why?

Slerb · 13-02-2015 12:43PM

Baron Kurtz wrote: »

No one's opinion means a whole lot in these kinds of threads. It's full of half-arsed empathy and bleeding hearts anyway. True, I was mocking that poster's notion of afterlife, adding levity perhaps, but as for the murdered toddler I had nothing venal to contribute.

Give it a rest, this isn't the thread to be mocking people in.

anncoates · 13-02-2015 12:44PM

Baron Kurtz wrote: »

I was mocking that poster's notion of afterlife,

Think there's a dedicated forum on boards in which you can pull your plum to your heart's content about that, if you so require.

AudreyHepburn · 13-02-2015 12:48PM

Baron Kurtz wrote: »

What absolute twaddle! Dread that haunts your soul? Belongs at the top table? You sound like Gay Byrne.

You do know we're talking about a murdered 3 year old don't you?

Have you no sympathy or empathy?

lazygal · 13-02-2015 12:54PM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

One thing which I hadn't realised until relatively recently (I think there was a documentary a couple of years ago), was just how far they brought little Jamie away. For some reason I had formed the impression that they had taken him outside where they snatched him and killed him somewhere adjacent. In fact, they walked him a considerable distance away (over a mile IIRC), and fobbed off people who were concerned at Jamie's crying, before killing him. In other words, it wasn't a quick, spur of the moment thing, but coldly planned.

They also tried to abduct another toddler earlier in the day, but were stopped from doing so. This was a very planned and deliberate act. IIFC they had planned to push a toddler in front of a car originally, but then they decided on a different course of action.

jmayo · 13-02-2015 01:06PM

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

I would hope it's not to drag up isolated horrific murders from 22 years ago which should be left in the past with the families being allowed to move on.

If you knew anything you would know that anyone that looses a child, nevermind one in such awful circumstances, never really move on.
It is always there and will be until their last dying breath.
It doesn't matter if it is in media again or not, they will be thinking about it.
What they might want is privacy and not some nosey journalists at them.

JaseBelleVie wrote: »

Both Venables and Thompson had been abused (possibly sexually, but definitely physically), neglected, ignored and simply unloved by their families most of their lives. They, for some reason, chose to vent anger, frustration and trauma on a helpless toddler. Nobody will every truly know what exactly drove them to it, what made them do it. They even tried to bring Jamie back to life by putting batteries in his mouth; thinking that he was akin to a toy and that would work. They did not, perhaps, realise the gravity and horror of what they had done.

The above is a potential reason, not an excuse. Just before I get called a tree-hugger, lib-lab, pinko, criminal apologist or anything.

The mere fact that two 10 year old boys were tried as adults is simply mind boggling. That should never have happened in the first place. They did deserve to have consequences upon their heads, but being tried in the Old Bailey and being subjected to a trial that most adults would find traumatic was not the way to go.

The family of Jamie Bulger went through one of the worst and most horrendous experiences that a family can ever go through. It is not shocking that the marriage of Ralph and Denise Bulger did not survive the trauma.

There can be little doubt that both Robert Thompson and Jon Venables were two damaged, sick individuals. But at the age of 10, perhaps punishing them as if they were adults was not the way to go. Instead of flinging them into institutions where little to no proper psychological help was available, perhaps treating them properly would have had a better result. While Thompson has dropped off the radar completely and is obviously now a law-abiding citizen somewhere, most people know that Venables has turned into a recidivist and a consumer of child pornography. Why one has obviously been able to get on with his life and the other has not is up for debate.

A most awful and sickening case, every way you look at it. There was no outcome here that would let you think "At least justice was done". It most certainly was not.

I absolutely detest this shyte.
And more so as a parent.
You claim you are not offering excuses but you damm well are.

Never forget the victim here was a little innocent kid, but of course some spin it so that the two perpetrators were victims.

Other kids have come from broken dysfunctional homes, other kids have been abused, but do they do what these two did ?

What would you have done with two 10 year olds who abducted and then killed a 2 year old ?
Put them back out in society, put them into a school with other kids ?

If you are a parent I will ask you one question.
Would you want your kid(s) anywhere near these two individuals ?

eviltwin · 13-02-2015 01:08PM

jmayo wrote: »

What would you have done with two 10 year olds who abducted and then killed a 2 year old ?
Put them back out in society, put them into a school with other kids ?

If you are a parent I will ask you one question.
Would you want your kid(s) anywhere near these two individuals ?

It sickens me to think these two are free and living under assumed names and nobody knows what they did. I don't belong to the hang em high school of thought but they should never have been allowed to be free. They are still young men, who knows what they have evolved into.

Baron Kurtz · 13-02-2015 01:08PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

You do know we're talking about a murdered 3 year old don't you?

Have you no sympathy or empathy?

I do. I didn't mention anything about James Bolger in my original comment though. It was moreso about how another poster conveyed his/her beliefs in an over-simplified, child-like manner.

See, now you are one of the outraged, typifying a lot of these threads. You read what you want and the gang up mentality begins in full flow.

bjork · 13-02-2015 01:12PM

eviltwin wrote: »

It sickens me to think these two are free and living under assumed names and nobody knows what they did. I don't belong to the hang em high school of thought but they should never have been allowed to be free. They are still young men, who knows what they have evolved into.

One of them is back in prison for other crimes.

Baron Kurtz · 13-02-2015 01:13PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Why?

Like the way in AH some people just do that sort of thing. The poster's view might have jumped out at me as being a little bit narrow and callow.

OldNotWIse · 13-02-2015 01:20PM

Baron Kurtz wrote: »

Like the way in AH some people just do that sort of thing. The poster's view might have jumped out at me as being a little bit narrow and callow.

Oh. I didn't realise there are prescribed ways in which we can express our sadness at something such as the murder of a toddler.

Neyite · 13-02-2015 01:37PM

bjork wrote: »

One of them is back in prison for other crimes.

No, Venables was briefly jailed for possession of child abuse images, but has since been released, and on dating sites with his new identity.

Baron Kurtz · 13-02-2015 01:52PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Oh. I didn't realise there are prescribed ways in which we can express our sadness at something such as the murder of a toddler.

Okay, trigger words for today are 'murder' and 'toddler' said ad nauseum for effect. I gotcha.

You just post here and there and on anything at all, because it's what you do. It's what you're supposed to do, is it. The Boards habit is developed, so you're conditioned to post up your banal missives and pretenses and don your outrage hat and in reality you don't give a hoot. You only say these things because you think you have to and the populist route is a safer one for you. Go you.

humanji · 13-02-2015 01:56PM

Baron Kurtz wrote: »

Okay, trigger words for today are 'murder' and 'toddler' said ad nauseum for effect. I gotcha.

You just post here and there and on anything at all, because it's what you do. It's what you're supposed to do, is it. The Boards habit is developed, so you're conditioned to post up your banal missives and pretenses and don your outrage hat and in reality you don't give a hoot. You only say these things because you think you have to and the populist route is a safer one for you. Go you.

MOD: If you don't like someone, ignore them. Don't derail threads just to take swipes at them.

JaseBelleVie · 13-02-2015 02:31PM

jmayo wrote: »

I absolutely detest this shyte.
And more so as a parent.
You claim you are not offering excuses but you damm well are.

Never forget the victim here was a little innocent kid, but of course some spin it so that the two perpetrators were victims.

Other kids have come from broken dysfunctional homes, other kids have been abused, but do they do what these two did ?

What would you have done with two 10 year olds who abducted and then killed a 2 year old ?
Put them back out in society, put them into a school with other kids ?

If you are a parent I will ask you one question.
Would you want your kid(s) anywhere near these two individuals ?

I am not a parent, so I will concede that point. I do not know what it is like to have children. I want to have kids some day, and I love kids, but I do not know what it is like to be a parent. Fair point.

Maybe I am in a way giving reasons, but not excuses. Not everyone reacts the same way to abuse; no two people are the same. I just think that the fact that the two perpetrators were children means that this case is not as black and white as it first seems. If the two perpetrators were even just as old as 13 or 14, it's a different spin. At 13/14, you are well aware of what murder is, of what you're doing, etc. At 10 years old? That's a bit more difficult to ascertain.

What would I have done with Thompson and Venables? The million dollar question. Honestly? I would not have released them straight away. Obviously they were two mentally disturbed children. Proper psychological evaluation and treatment would be top of the list. If psychologists and psychiatrists could rehabilitate them fully, well and good. Attempt re-integration. If they are deemed to be unable to be rehabilitated, a life tariff without the possibility of release. That is just my own opinion.

And now to contradict everything I just said, to let my heart rule my head:

If you are a parent I will ask you one question.
Would you want your kid(s) anywhere near these two individuals ?

No. I would not. The niggling little question in the back of my head would remain, and I would not be comfortable at all having these guys near my own kids, unsupervised.

Maybe Thompson has been rehabilitated (he has not resurfaced at all since the time he was released), but Venables is obviously not.

This is not a case that is easy to understand, dissect, or to be able to talk about without a lot of emotion coming into it.

osarusan · 13-02-2015 02:41PM

jmayo wrote: »

I absolutely detest this shyte.
And more so as a parent.

I am a parent and I agree with everything the poster said.

bjork · 13-02-2015 02:43PM

Neyite wrote: »

No, Venables was briefly jailed for possession of child abuse images, but has since been released, and on dating sites with his new identity.

Very worrying. Especially as his new identify is a closely guarded secret :mad:

Irishcrx · 13-02-2015 02:43PM

I can't read the story again.

The last time I read it I was so angry I was reduced to tears in work...a grown man..

The only thing I can say is that their is no punishment on this world or even beyond it good enough for them two.

If they were sent to Hell and made lie on burning coals with nails going through them every two seconds it wouldn't even come close to being enough.

22 years ago today. R.I.P James Bulger

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