The Spike

p.pete · 05-06-2003 01:51PM

Originally posted by DadaKopf
Pete: shut up. I'll have none of your Irish cynicism.

Irish people are divided into the cynics and the blind. I am a cynic. Someone who falls into the blind category would be someone who believes that an extra couple of million in the health budget would save two or three lives, and not just pay for another dozen or so administrators to have their offices redecorated by an over priced decorator.

p.s. If you don't like Irish cynicism why not start posting on a British boards site. Very proud bunch the British.

lemondrop · 05-06-2003 04:03PM

Originally posted by DadaKopf
it was people on the bus from Dundrum saying that the Luas bridge was built too low and the buses couldn't get under it. It didn't occur to them that they were actually on a bus at the time and that this was a major public work, there was no way anyone would ever make such a stupid mistake.

The Port Tunnel has been built too low so the biggest Lorrys cant go through it and now they are going to be banned from City roads....this will only cause companies to use 2 lorries instead of the one, which increases the traffic, pollution, increased expenses for companies which smaller companies might not be able to afford and end up going out of business. You see thats the problem with the Government , they line their pocket and to hell with the rest of us mere mortals, what do they care they just got a raise.

As you suggested taxing the heck out of the rich....im sure the Government will manage to get out of paying that one themselves!!!!! Why do they need such big salaries, they should get down off the horse they put themselves on and realise that very few ppl respect them anymore...and ppl certainly dont trust them!!!!!! If this happened with regular business people making lots of promises to clients and not coming up with the goods, they would end up in a lot of trouble and probably in court....but the Government are "Untouchable"

Im sick of it all, as soon as im done in college im outta here!!!

DadaKopf · 05-06-2003 10:31PM

p.pete: I'm certainly not blind. I'm a critic, not a cynic. Various public authorities have made enormous mistakes in the past and I'd never claim otherwise. (Sorry, I wasn't *actually* telling you to shut up, I was being all like "talk to da hand" and all tha') Like I said, perhaps it's hard to justify the Spire in financial terms because it's hard to measure the benefits of it but, well, I like it and I don't really think it was a waste of money. I do, however, think that greater pains should have been taken to deliver it on time and on budget.

As regards forward planning: we need two important things: (1) increased cooperation between related departments so that long-term strategies can be formed on an interdisciplinary/inter-departmental basis and (2) greater openness to radical, progessive solutions should be fostered by officials and the public at large. These points are cyclical; delivering viable, successful and *on budget* projects requires novel thinking but it will also require novel thinking at the outset to restructure the public agencies to deliver.

The economic argument is also essential; critics have commented that our current economic system is denying us the human capital we need to make this possible as it's stifling our imaginations, our abilities to plan for the future. Sure, this was never really possible until the Celtic Tiger but we may be slipping back into old habits as our government is steering us once again into deficit and debt.

Have people been demanding better? I'm not so sure. Why has voter apathy been steadily increasing over the past ten years? Because of government inactivity, and inactivity breeds inactivity until things get way too bad.

See, while cities are the focuses of economic concerns, they are, simultaneously human environments and urban quality of life has deteriorated rapidly in Dublin. People need spaces to breathe and a reason to look up. It may only be symbolic, but I really believe that expenses like the Spire, public parks, bye-laws prohibiting neon ads and shopfronts on O'Connell St. etc. are necessary if a culture is to develop which makes the above measures not just possible but successful. It's not easy for Irish people to look away from financial issues for a few moments to see aesthetic ones for what they are. Transforming Irish politics requires a transformation of Irish values and that can begin with a transformation of Dublin itself.

gombín · 06-06-2003 12:17AM

Lads,

Can anyone substantiate this €25m over-run on the O'Connell St. project? I live only down the and have to pass it everyday going to work. Bar the spike, the only work I've seen completed is the relaying of the pavement on the upper half of the street where the big crane was (half-arsed mind you; half tarmac, half paving slabs), and the digging up and relaying of the traffic lights at North Earl St. about four or five times. I mean how the hell could they forecast an over-run of €25m on this. At max., the present work should not have cost any more than a couple of million.

Regarding the famed plaza in front of the GPO; what a joke! It looks worse than Sellafield, with every kind of junk just flung in behind some barricades.

But this doesn't just apply to Ireland lads. I was in Toulon in the south of France a few times in the last few years. Everytime I go back they still seem to doing renovations on the main square which in it's normal state would probably look gorgeous, but remains looking like a mini-Beirut. I've been to most areas of France and even lived there for a while, and as a rule, they are excellent for completing public works. But at least it's good to know that we're not the only state in Europe that can't get it right.:mad:

DadaKopf · 06-06-2003 02:26AM

Eh, it's a building site?

p.pete · 06-06-2003 08:42AM

Originally posted by DadaKopf
p.pete: I'm certainly not blind. I'm a critic, not a cynic.

That's great if the criticism is constructive - at least you would be suggesting improvements and not just be putting everything down. Let's face it, being critical in this country is not that hard. If not constructive, I find cynicism is a lot more fun.

Originally posted by DadaKopf
Pete: shut up.

Sorry, I missunderstood your subtle way of saying "talk to the hand":p Can you explain the difference to me between "talk to the hand" and "shut up"? Is it meant to be like the difference between criticism and cynicism, the later being more fun?

Originally posted by DadaKopf Eh, it's a building site?

I can't remember when it wasn't.

Monty - the one and only · 06-06-2003 09:13AM

Both of you cool it now before this turns into a flaming session.

DadaKopf · 06-06-2003 07:47PM

I've hardly been flaming. I've offered plenty of constructive criticism.

Monty - the one and only · 07-06-2003 01:47AM

I never said you were, it looked it was heading that way, stopping it before it happens is better than waiting for it to happen.

p.pete · 07-06-2003 12:34PM

I apologise, I re-read some of Dadakopfs points and they are constructive, not as I said, negative - so I take that remark back.

I would still be interested in finding out the fundamental differences of being told to "talk to the hand" and to "shut up". What forum would a thread enquiring that fall under?

robbie1876 · 09-06-2003 03:51AM

What would you build instead of the spike?

Yes, it's easy to say that you would put the €4 mil into healthcare / schools / homeless etc, but if you had to spend it on a monument, what would it be? I've yet to hear anybody come up with a credible alternative.

BTW, some Parisians objected to the building of the Eiffel Tower on grounds that it was a waste of money that should be spent elsewhere and a monstrosity. At the time, there was a petition signed by hundreds of influential people arguing "We, the writers, painters, sculptors, architects and lovers of the beauty of Paris, do protest with all our vigour and all our indignation, in the name of French taste and endangered French art and history, against the useless and monstrous Eiffel Tower."

Now I know its not the Eiffel Tower, but I'm sure we'll all come to love The Spire in time.

lemondrop · 09-06-2003 11:00AM

Originally posted by robbie1876

BTW, some Parisians objected to the building of the Eiffel Tower on grounds that it was a waste of money that should be spent elsewhere and a monstrosity. At the time, there was a petition signed by hundreds of influential people arguing "We, the writers, painters, sculptors, architects and lovers of the beauty of Paris, do protest with all our vigour and all our indignation, in the name of French taste and endangered French art and history, against the useless and monstrous Eiffel Tower."

Now I know its not the Eiffel Tower, but I'm sure we'll all come to love The Spire in time.

At least the Eiffel Tower serves some purpose........you can go to the top and look out over the city. And it also make some money by charging people to go up it and a little extra to get the lift up it. Whats are our government going to do...charge us to look up in the sky.

The Spike

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