Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert See Mod Warning Post #1

endakenny · 05-02-2015 10:34PM

seavill wrote: »

How can the union leadership put pressure on managment as a matter of interest?
Principals & DPs have a job to do, which includes doing what they are told by their bosses (the Government/Department) which includes running CP hours in a way that they were told to do.
I don't see how bullying P & DPs into doing what you want them to do helps in any way.
Yes some are more lenient than others but they still have to follow orders that is their job. We are signed up to CP/HRA which means we have to follow the rules (even if they Department don't) we can't sign up to an agreement and then pick and choose what we want to do and what we don't.
Really don't see where youa re going with this one apart from trying to say something to win over a few votes

Chilli Con Kearney explained that the JMB pushed for the format of the CP hours as it was in 2009 (a small amount of flexibility was granted thanks to lobbying by the TUI). Principals and deputy principals are superior to staff but they are subordinate to union leadership if they are union members, i.e. obedience of union directives. Surely, they don't want to be perceived as being disloyal to staff.

By the way, how is the Dept not following the rules?

As for trying to "win votes", you don't think I'm the real Enda Kenny. Do you?

katydid · 05-02-2015 10:38PM

endakenny wrote: »

Chilli Con Kearney explained that the JMB pushed for the format of the CP hours as it was in 2009 (a small amount of flexibility was granted thanks to lobbying by the TUI). Principals and deputy principals are superior to staff but they are subordinate to union leadership if they are union members, i.e. obedience of union directives. Surely, they don't want to be perceived as being disloyal to staff.

By the way, how is the Dept not following the rules?

As for trying to "win votes", you don't think I'm the real Enda Kenny. Do you?

So you want the union to make a directive to principals and deputy principals telling them to "be lenient"? Are you serious?

seavill · 05-02-2015 10:38PM

endakenny wrote: »

Chilli Con Kearney explained that the JMB pushed for the format of the CP hours as it was in 2009 (a small amount of flexibility was granted thanks to lobbying by the TUI). Principals and deputy principals are superior to staff but they are subordinate to union leadership if they are union members, i.e. obedience of union directives. Surely, they don't want to be perceived as being disloyal to staff.

By the way, how is the Dept not following the rules?

As for trying to "win votes", you don't think I'm the real Enda Kenny. Do you?

No I don't I just meant you are trying something new of saying something populist instead of just winding people up constantly.

The management are "subordinate" to their superiors in the Department. The union signed up to CP/HRA so have to follow it, no one said there is no wiggle room in the hours there is a small amount.

You still didn't answer how can the union put pressure on the members of management who have to do their job and follow the CP/HRA that the unions agreed to, which they are currently doing. Just because teachers are not happy about doing the hours doesn't mean management are doing anything wrong.

What do you want the unions to put pressure on management to do exactly?

endakenny · 05-02-2015 10:54PM

seavill wrote: »

No I don't I just meant you are trying something new of saying something populist instead of just winding people up constantly.

The management are "subordinate" to their superiors in the Department. The union signed up to CP/HRA so have to follow it, no one said there is no wiggle room in the hours there is a small amount.

You still didn't answer how can the union put pressure on the members of management who have to do their job and follow the CP/HRA that the unions agreed to, which they are currently doing. Just because teachers are not happy about doing the hours doesn't mean management are doing anything wrong.

What do you want the unions to put pressure on management to do exactly?

OK, I'm sorry.

You said that the Dept isn't following the rules. How? There's no indication that the Dept won't pay the increments before HRA runs out.

seavill · 05-02-2015 11:01PM

endakenny wrote: »

OK, I'm sorry.

You said that the Dept isn't following the rules. How? There's no indication that the Dept won't pay the increments before HRA runs out.

I have asked you two questions, twice now, which you have yet to answer. You have made statements and you won't clarify them, Please respond to the questions I asked you rather than trying to throw the conversation by asking me questions

To answer your questions, the Department failed to pay increments on time. A 3 month delay is now a 6 month delay. They have broken their side of the agreement. They had over a years notice to get their computer systems in order which they failed to do yet they manage to take out strike day pay immediately. So hopefully that answers your question. It is not up to them to pay it whenver they want "before HRA runs out" they set up an agreement and broke it. I'm sure I would get on well with my bank if I didn't pay my mortgage but told the bank "ah sure I'll pay it before our agreement runs out in 30 years"
Now answer the questions yourself

endakenny · 05-02-2015 11:16PM

seavill wrote: »

I have asked you two questions, twice now, which you have yet to answer. You have made statements and you won't clarify them, Please respond to the questions I asked you rather than trying to throw the conversation by asking me questions

To answer your questions, the Department failed to pay increments on time. A 3 month delay is now a 6 month delay. They have broken their side of the agreement. They had over a years notice to get their computer systems in order which they failed to do yet they manage to take out strike day pay immediately. So hopefully that answers your question. It is not up to them to pay it whenver they want "before HRA runs out" they set up an agreement and broke it. I'm sure I would get on well with my bank if I didn't pay my mortgage but told the bank "ah sure I'll pay it before our agreement runs out in 30 years"
Now answer the questions yourself

The method of paying increments might not necessarily be the same as the docking of pay for strike days. In fairness, I don't think that Jan O'Sullivan is a dishonest person.

seavill · 05-02-2015 11:18PM

endakenny wrote: »

The method of paying increments might not necessarily be the same as the docking of pay for strike days. In fairness, I don't think that Jan O'Sullivan is a dishonest person.

Fair play for answering the questions I put to you.

I never claimed She was a dishonest person.

It may be a different method but they had over a year to sort it out and they failed hence breaking their side of the agreement, answering your question again

km79 · 05-02-2015 11:30PM

to get this thread back on track somewhat ive a question for members of the teaching profession .........what do ye think the proposals will consist of ?

seavill · 05-02-2015 11:33PM

Talking about the reasons for the strike and the actions of those people involved is on track with this thread I'm afraid

km79 · 05-02-2015 11:40PM

seavill wrote: »

Talking about the reasons for the strike and the actions of those people involved is on track with this thread I'm afraid

true
I wish the ignore function also blocked the posts when quoted by a poster in reply.
another thread I have to unfollow in my own professions forum ........

endakenny · 05-02-2015 11:43PM

seavill wrote: »

Fair play for answering the questions I put to you.

I never claimed She was a dishonest person.

It may be a different method but they had over a year to sort it out and they failed hence breaking their side of the agreement, answering your question again

The Dept would be guilty of breaching HRA only if the delay was intentional. After all, in most criminal cases, intent has to be proved. The same logic applies here.

Fixing computer systems might be more complicated than you think. Take the Royal Bank of Scotland software fiasco for instance. Fixing the system in a government department may be even more complicated than that.

seavill · 05-02-2015 11:45PM

Your posts are a joke I was trying to engage with you which most people won't do here but you won't engage back which is a shame. I won't be replying to you again on this topic

Inspector Coptoor · 05-02-2015 11:45PM

So implementing a long term increment to staff can be delayed for months on end, while a one day strike reduction can be applied to the SAME system at will?

GTFO here with that dung

endakenny · 05-02-2015 11:54PM

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

So implementing a long term increment to staff can be delayed for months on end, while a one day strike reduction can be applied to the SAME system at will?

GTFO here with that dung

It's not dung; it's the presumption of innocence. Implementing an increment might be more complicated than docking pay for a strike day. If you have proof that the Dept's delay in paying the increment is deliberate then please show it.

rainbowtrout · 05-02-2015 11:59PM

endakenny wrote: »

The Dept would be guilty of breaching HRA only if the delay was intentional. After all, in most criminal cases, intent has to be proved. The same logic applies here.

Fixing computer systems might be more complicated than you think. Take the Royal Bank of Scotland software fiasco for instance. Fixing the system in a government department may be even more complicated than that.

I doubt it. I got my increment. I work for an ETB. They missed mine, but other staff in my school got theirs so I emailed them and they updated it.

I'd imagine that if it's software is the problem then
I can't imagine the code is that complicated. Increments are calculated on a 12 month basis. So current coding for the system could look like this:

If (LastIncrementDate > 365)

{

Increment++;

}

Teacher gets increment if their last increment date was more than 365 days ago.

That could be tweaked to allow for another 90 days or to calculate 3 months after their due date. Either way, it shouldn't take 15 months to sort out what is probably a few lines of code. Everyone is being processed on the same payroll system.

evolving_doors · 06-02-2015 11:18AM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I doubt it. I got my increment. I work for an ETB. They missed mine, but other staff in my school got theirs so I emailed them and they updated it.

I'd imagine that if it's software is the problem then
I can't imagine the code is that complicated. Increments are calculated on a 12 month basis. So current coding for the system could look like this:

If (LastIncrementDate > 365)

{

Increment++;

}

Teacher gets increment if their last increment date was more than 365 days ago.

That could be tweaked to allow for another 90 days or to calculate 3 months after their due date. Either way, it shouldn't take 15 months to sort out what is probably a few lines of code. Everyone is being processed on the same payroll system.

id agree, no excuse...

its actually a very good tool to measure how pliable the increment is in terms of future negotiations. If only a few teachers and unions make a little noise about being denied their increment, then its on the table...
If more kicked up a fuss and CP hours were put on hold by teachers then it would be paid forthwith.

Also if the govt. had it down on the books to be paid in 2014 but it was not paid... then wayhayyyy the dept. has come in under budget and made savings.

But surely nobody would do such a thing!

Sounds bad if teachers mention the word 'pay' during a negotiation too. Also in the media presenters like to stir the pot by equating increments with bonuses... then we're down the rathole of performance pay/bad teachers private sector good public sector bad... And around and around it goes.

From this pt. of view I can see why the Unions have to sweat it out as for once public sentiment (maybe not towards teachers... but more so AGAINST govt.) is important.

Benicetomonty · 06-02-2015 03:47PM

Joint statement from asti and tui.

http://www.tui.ie/press-releases/joint-tuiasti-statement-re-junior-cycle-talks.6721.html

Whatever that means.

km79 · 06-02-2015 03:52PM

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Joint statement from asti and tui.

http://www.tui.ie/press-releases/joint-tuiasti-statement-re-junior-cycle-talks.6721.html

Whatever that means.

I'd assume some of the proposals will start to leak in next few hours /days .....

Boober Fraggle · 06-02-2015 03:54PM

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Joint statement from asti and tui.

http://www.tui.ie/press-releases/joint-tuiasti-statement-re-junior-cycle-talks.6721.html

Whatever that means.

I had to read that six times just to be sure I couldn't understand it.

So, the terms of reference for talks will change... And Pauric travers may come up with some options having listened to both sides, these options will be discussed, but a decision will most likely go to a vote??

sitstill · 06-02-2015 03:58PM

Boober Fraggle wrote: »

I had to read that six times just to be sure I couldn't understand it.

So, the terms of reference for talks will change... And Pauric travers may come up with some options having listened to both sides, these options will be discussed, but a decision will most likely go to a vote??

Is that what it means? I had no idea.

Could this mean the unions are backing down slightly?

gaiscioch · 06-02-2015 04:09PM

I'm watching my union closely in this. I'm utterly enervated from sitting around talking unadulterated raiméis and attending stifling in-services ad nauseam - our latest being the third one on child protection.

Nothing new - just box-ticking posterior-covering by pen pushers in the Department of Education. It bears zero - and I mean zero - connection to anything remotely connected with inspiring, encouraging or enlightening kids. In sharp contrast, there are kids who need extra help because where it really matters - funding effective classrooms - the same pen pushers refuse to give so many kids a chance by continuing to insist that 25-30 kids with a ridiculously broad range of aptitudes are put in a single class to be "taught". The Irish Department of Education could make real changes but instead their "reforms" amount to the likes of this patronising, increasingly offensive superficial and futile "Croke Park hours". It's a sham.

We are only forced to do these because they want to break our spirit and ultimately get us used to working more for less money. They are trying to break the culture of teaching and they are testing the water with these pointless Croke Park hours, hoping we'll get so sick of them that we'll be willing to do something more productive with the same hours.

"We give in. You've bored us to death with those 33 hours. We are now willing to spend 33 hours extra per year teaching students/running sports teams/drama clubs etc for no pay." Oh, and we'll correct our students' major exams and we'll continue to allow you to make teaching into the form-filling mind-numbing, posterior-covering, spiritless bureaucracy that it is in England. Because all you lamentable grade A clowns in the Irish Department of Education and the army of fonctionnaires you have checking on us have to be seen to be doing something - or rather be seen to be making us do something, anything - anything at all. It's all about appearances and spin in the media to bully Irish teachers into becoming overworked, perennially exhausted, vapid clockwatchers far removed from the great tradition of Irish teaching, a profession which has given more than any other to drag us up from the nadir of our history since the 17th century. That's a noble tradition worth defending against all comers.

Yes, it is painful getting that €124 strike pay docked from my salary yesterday for the second time in a month. Money, however, comes and goes. But I'll be damned if I partake in making the Irish teaching profession the yellow pack, transient one that exists in England full of exhausted, demoralised whipping boys for some Tory upperclass who in a heartbeat will lower taxes for ultra-rich financiers.

I've reflected on where things are going for teachers and if I need to go on 10 more of those strike days in order to avoid working conditions I have settled my mind that I will do precisely that. I hope I am not alone. It's about €1000 to me after tax. That sum approximates to about 40 classes with my most dysfunctional, energy-draining class. That's an awful lot of pain I have to go through to get that money. However, like every other teacher I can find a cheaper, last minute holiday or save that money some other way. If all Irish teachers think about the bigger picture here, our profession will be safe. Once those conditions are gone, your career as you've known it is gone. Be smart/Don't be a myopic idiot.

MacGyver007 · 06-02-2015 05:31PM

gaiscioch wrote: »

I'm watching my union closely in this. I'm utterly enervated from sitting around talking unadulterated raiméis and attending stifling in-services ad nauseam - our latest being the third one on child protection.

Nothing new - just box-ticking posterior-covering by pen pushers in the Department of Education. It bears zero - and I mean zero - connection to anything remotely connected with inspiring, encouraging or enlightening kids. In sharp contrast, there are kids who need extra help because where it really matters - funding effective classrooms - the same pen pushers refuse to give so many kids a chance by continuing to insist that 25-30 kids with a ridiculously broad range of aptitudes are put in a single class to be "taught". The Irish Department of Education could make real changes but instead their "reforms" amount to the likes of this patronising, increasingly offensive superficial and futile "Croke Park hours". It's a sham.

We are only forced to do these because they want to break our spirit and ultimately get us used to working more for less money. They are trying to break the culture of teaching and they are testing the water with these pointless Croke Park hours, hoping we'll get so sick of them that we'll be willing to do something more productive with the same hours.

"We give in. You've bored us to death with those 33 hours. We are now willing to spend 33 hours extra per year teaching students/running sports teams/drama clubs etc for no pay." Oh, and we'll correct our students' major exams and we'll continue to allow you to make teaching into the form-filling mind-numbing, posterior-covering, spiritless bureaucracy that it is in England. Because all you lamentable grade A clowns in the Irish Department of Education and the army of fonctionnaires you have checking on us have to be seen to be doing something - or rather be seen to be making us do something, anything - anything at all. It's all about appearances and spin in the media to bully Irish teachers into becoming overworked, perennially exhausted, vapid clockwatchers far removed from the great tradition of Irish teaching, a profession which has given more than any other to drag us up from the nadir of our history since the 17th century. That's a noble tradition worth defending against all comers.

Yes, it is painful getting that €124 strike pay docked from my salary yesterday for the second time in a month. Money, however, comes and goes. But I'll be damned if I partake in making the Irish teaching profession the yellow pack, transient one that exists in England full of exhausted, demoralised whipping boys for some Tory upperclass who in a heartbeat will lower taxes for ultra-rich financiers.

I've reflected on where things are going for teachers and if I need to go on 10 more of those strike days in order to avoid working conditions I have settled my mind that I will do precisely that. I hope I am not alone. It's about €1000 to me after tax. That sum approximates to about 40 classes with my most dysfunctional, energy-draining class. That's an awful lot of pain I have to go through to get that money. However, like every other teacher I can find a cheaper, last minute holiday or save that money some other way. If all Irish teachers think about the bigger picture here, our profession will be safe. Once those conditions are gone, your career as you've known it is gone. Be smart/Don't be a myopic idiot.

For a number of reasons I have been inactive here in recent months but I had to post as it sums up my thoughts on the whole saga precisely. Yes it is very painful to be docked wages, with childcare, a large mortgage on a house in major negative-equity and continuous stream of other bills to pay. But this industrial action is about far more than money. In my book there are some things that cannot be measured in purely monetary terms; working conditions is one of them.

km79 · 06-02-2015 06:15PM

http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2015-Press-Releases/PR15-02-06.html#sthash.xAodr6wV.dpuf
the minister is happy....

r93kaey5p2izun · 06-02-2015 06:57PM

I think the union's concessions and backtracking will certainly make this whole strike effort seem pointless but you may be in the wrong thread?

rainbowtrout · 06-02-2015 07:10PM

Marshall Some Second wrote: »

I think the union's concessions and backtracking will certainly make this whole strike effort seem pointless but you may be in the wrong thread?

Having multiple threads open at once causes me all sorts of problems now and again!!!:D

km79 · 06-02-2015 07:12PM

all sides meeting Monday again

Chancer3001 · 06-02-2015 07:26PM

Anybody got travers mobile number?

I'll text him. Tell him be sound.

2011abc · 06-02-2015 07:51PM

First time I've ever added anyone to an 'ignore list' i(not Seavill)n best part of twenty years online !!!

He who pays the piper calls the tune ?Expect nothing less than to be marking JC students after this and you shouldn't be too surprised or disappointed . As the head office usurpers seem to be going nowhere you can either put up and shut up or vote with your feet .At this stage the tactic of making devastating announcements in the lead up to holidays when teachers are only interested in unwinding and won't necessarily be in contact with colleagues is a tad predictable .

Maybe I will ask again about starting a new union (1000 interested peoples 'signatures 'and 25 euro a head ) 'the morning after' ...If there wasn't sufficient interest the funds could be donated to charity (or returned by Paypal at least ) I guess .

I'm guessing a union could be ran on a fair bit less than the established players charge .Office wouldn't have to be in heart of Dublin .I presume at least one admin /secretarial and one industrial relations officer would be needed .150k? 150 euro a year ?Save 200 , loose a pocket diary ?

evolving_doors · 07-02-2015 11:32PM

Dr Crippen wrote: »

Thats fairly amateur trolling

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

# lol

Would you ever just jog on?

OK folks back on topic, thanks.
Member has agreed to leave.

Best way to contribute is to raise a new point or take up a previous one.

MOD

man_no_plan · 08-02-2015 11:31AM

katydid wrote: »

A start would be to allow meetings at times when it suits the staff, not necessarily at the end of a long day unless there is no alternative. If they are not whole school meetings, and the people involved are free at other times; if they all have a free class at the same time, or want to meet at lunchtime, that should be allowed. And the time should be more flexibly used for CPD, assisting students, helping with extra-curricular activities or whatever, not for makey uppey meetings which are just held for the sake of it.

So if there's 5/6 x 3 hours for pmts and 3 x 2 hour staff meetings, 1 per term as per m58/04 is that enough? How much for subject planning? How much for school development planning? Is one staff meeting per term enough?

How much of the croke park hours is used for waste of time stuff now? We don't go in for the whole school cpd of an uninteresting topic. Is that widespread?

I think I would be worth getting an answer on this, the unions will be going in soon to talk about this but they only consult with us afterwards. If we were to be proactive what would we see as what is necessary and what is excessive?

Would you support compulsory CPD in our own time for example?

Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert **See Mod Warning Post #1**

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Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert See Mod Warning Post #1