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Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Read Mod Warning in OP 7/1/15

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Comments

  • #5522
    keane2097
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,867 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    Pro. F wrote: »
    The fact that Moyes and LVG (and possibly some behind the scenes actor in charge of transfers) have done such obviously poor jobs of managing the club undermines the argument that the problem was the squad Fergie left behind.

    We needed a few new defenders and a few new midfielders. There was bucket loads of money to spend. It was no particular challenge to finish in the top four.

    I can't believe you still hold onto the notion that the squad was close to grand.

    "A few new defenders and a few new midfielders" is practically the entire team.

    You can admit the squad was a shambles and still say Moyes and LVG are bad if you insist.


  • #5523
    bangkok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,638 ✭✭✭✭bangkok


    TheDoc wrote: »
    Three of the main back four declining rapidly.
    A midfield consisting of absolutely nothing.
    Our main and arguably best player considering his future at the club.
    No wingers.

    The above annoys me, you'd swear that he left the current Real Madrid team to Moyes. He left a squad that was VASTLY over rated in the clubs eyes, and no one for a second seemed to think a big part of their success was down to Fergusons ability to drag every inch of performance from players.

    Not to mention Van Persie having a little sulk that he only got a year under Fergie.

    And he didn't leave money to spend. How many times does it have to be reminded how Gill made a very public press conference outlining the squad will not be getting overhauled, and that there is maybe room for 1 or 2 signings for a new manager to get his own men in.

    The money last summer only came about once the club realised how BAD the squad was.
    bucketybuck wrote: »
    Your memory is faulty. Go back 4/5 years and you will find that lots of people had plenty of concerns about the direction the squad was going and the horrendous state of the midfield in particular. The Blackburn game anybody? Scholes coming out of retirement?

    That team didn't down tools just because Moyes came in, it was a creaking squad that always badly needed refurbishment. Still good enough for top four mind, but nowhere near as good as it needed to be to compete for titles and European cups.

    no I agree with you, there should have been investment but I didn't agree with your earlier assessment.


  • #5524
    bangkok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,638 ✭✭✭✭bangkok


    keane2097 wrote: »
    I can't believe you still hold onto the notion that the squad was close to grand.

    "A few new defenders and a few new midfielders" is practically the entire team.

    You can admit the squad was a shambles and still say Moyes and LVG are bad if you insist.

    no, its 2 new defenders and 2 new midfielders


  • #5525
    keane2097
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,867 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    Evra, Ferdinand, Vidic - finished
    Rafael - couldn't/can't stay fit

    That's the entire back line needing replacement.

    Carrick - Pro F doesn't rate
    Fletcher - finished
    Valencia - not good enough
    Young - very borderline good enough
    Giggs - finished
    Anderson - not good enough
    Cleverley - not good enough
    Nani - hasn't shown much in a number of years. Needs "a run of games" apparently, but injury prone

    Am I missing anyone from midfield?


  • #5526
    Pro. F
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    keane2097 wrote: »
    I can't believe you still hold onto the notion that the squad was close to grand.

    "A few new defenders and a few new midfielders" is practically the entire team.

    You can admit the squad was a shambles and still say Moyes and LVG are bad if you insist.

    The new defenders and midfielders I say were needed includes squad players, so that does not equate to practically the entire team.

    And I'm not saying the squad was close to grand for winning things, only for staying in the top four, which was the most important thing at that time.
    keane2097 wrote: »
    Evra, Ferdinand, Vidic - finished
    Rafael - couldn't/can't stay fit

    That's the entire back line needing replacement.

    Carrick - Pro F doesn't rate
    Fletcher - finished
    Valencia - not good enough
    Young - very borderline good enough
    Giggs - finished
    Anderson - not good enough
    Cleverley - not good enough
    Nani - hasn't shown much in a number of years. Needs "a run of games" apparently, but injury prone

    Am I missing anyone from midfield?

    Don't speak for me. My assessment of that squad is completely different to yours.


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  • #5527
    keane2097
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,867 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    Pro. F wrote: »
    Don't speak for me. My assessment of that squad is completely different to yours.

    Am I wronging you in saying you don't rate Carrick as a top class midfielder?

    The rest of the assessments were my own if that wasn't clear.


  • #5528
    Pro. F
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    keane2097 wrote: »
    Am I wronging you in saying you don't rate Carrick as a top class midfielder?

    The rest of the assessments were my own if that wasn't clear.

    You are wrong in implying that I don't think Carrick is good enough to start for a team aiming for a top four finish.


  • #5529
    keane2097
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,867 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    Pro. F wrote: »
    You are wrong in implying that I don't think Carrick is good enough to start for a team aiming for a top four finish.

    Do you think he's a top class midfielder?


  • #5530
    Pro. F
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    keane2097 wrote: »
    Do you think he's a top class midfielder?

    Not at all. But my definition of "top class" is narrow enough to exclude players who are good enough to start for top four teams.


  • #5531
    bangkok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,638 ✭✭✭✭bangkok


    Pro. F wrote: »
    Not at all. But my definition of "top class" is narrow enough to exclude players who are good enough to start for top four teams.

    Leon+Britton+Reading+v+Swansea+City+npower+UhZ42ElzCeFl.jpg


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  • #5532
    Pro. F
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    bangkok wrote: »
    Leon+Britton+Reading+v+Swansea+City+npower+UhZ42ElzCeFl.jpg

    What?


  • #5533
    keane2097
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,867 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    Pro. F wrote: »
    Not at all. But my definition of "top class" is narrow enough to exclude players who are good enough to start for top four teams.

    How many top class players do you think were in the squad that started last season?


  • #5534
    Pro. F
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    keane2097 wrote: »
    How many top class players do you think were in the squad that started last season?

    Three: DDG, Rooney and RVP.


  • #5535
    keane2097
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,867 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    Pro. F wrote: »
    Three: DDG, Rooney and RVP.

    I think that says all that needs to be said about the state Ferguson left the squad in for a club like Man United. Zero top class defenders, zero top class midfielders.

    He also left with one of the three top class players agitating for a move away from the club.


  • #5536
    KevIRL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,750 ✭✭✭✭KevIRL


    http://m.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-31147475

    Home game with Burnley next week in danger of cancellation?


  • #5537
    Vic Vinegar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,241 ✭✭✭Vic Vinegar


    KevIRL wrote: »
    http://m.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-31147475

    Home game with Burnley next week in danger of cancellation?

    I wouldn't have thought cancellation was even being discussed really, there are other means of transport other than trams.


  • #5538
    Pro. F
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    keane2097 wrote: »
    I think that says all that needs to be said about the state Ferguson left the squad in for a club like Man United. Zero top class defenders, zero top class midfielders.

    If you want to engage with the argument in a pointlessly superficial way then yes, that says all that needs to be said.
    keane2097 wrote: »
    He also left with one of the three top class players agitating for a move away from the club.

    I think there's a very strong case to be made that Fergie put his own score-settling agenda ahead of the health of the club there. If that was what people were giving out about then I wouldn't raise much objection.


  • #5539
    Cantona's Collars
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    This time last year Man Utd were 7th and had lost 7 of their last 16. They're now third and have lost one in 16.
    As Miguel Delaney said last night on Off The Ball,"LVG while making some unusual decisions looks like he believes in what he's doing,last season Moyes looked panicky on the sideline and this permeated itself through the squad".

    Another plus:
    At least LVG has been ruthless in clearing out deadwood.A couple more will go in the Summer and he'll bring in some more proper talent.
    In the words of Fergie regarding the Winter transfer window "there's no value in the market".


  • #5540
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    zerks wrote: »
    Another plus:
    At least LVG has been ruthless in clearing out deadwood.A couple more will go in the Summer and he'll bring in some more proper talent.
    In the words of Fergie regarding the Winter transfer window "there's no value in the market".

    I'm wholly in favour of LvG clearing the deadwood, although to be fair to Moyes, he probably would have done the same thing had he been kept on. I'm not sure if LvG deserves praise for it, because it was pretty obvious to a lot of people that large chunks of the existing squad needed to be dumped.


  • #5541
    keane2097
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,867 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    Pro. F wrote: »
    If you want to engage with the argument in a pointlessly superficial way then yes, that says all that needs to be said.

    I don't think it's superficial at all.

    A club that has challenged for league and continental honours in perpetuity gets handed over from the greatest manager of the era to a new guy with no top class defenders or midfielders.

    The performances that resulted were exactly what was to be expected from a decent manager in charge of a middling squad. That the squad was used to being managed by a living legend probably made them perform even worse than their level, but that squad was only probably borderline capable of getting top four under Moyes even in the best of circumstances.


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  • #5542
    bangkok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,638 ✭✭✭✭bangkok


    keane2097 wrote: »
    I think that says all that needs to be said about the state Ferguson left the squad in for a club like Man United. Zero top class defenders, zero top class midfielders.

    He also left with one of the three top class players agitating for a move away from the club.

    but that is only your opinion.


  • #5543
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,199 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    I'm wholly in favour of LvG clearing the deadwood, although to be fair to Moyes, he probably would have done the same thing had he been kept on. I'm not sure if LvG deserves praise for it, because it was pretty obvious to a lot of people that large chunks of the existing squad needed to be dumped.

    Indeed, there isn't much hard thinking to be done when deciding the futures of the likes of Anderson or Fletcher.


  • #5544
    keane2097
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,867 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    bangkok wrote: »
    but that is only your opinion.

    Actually, it's Pro F's opinion.


  • #5545
    bangkok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,638 ✭✭✭✭bangkok


    keane2097 wrote: »
    Actually, it's Pro F's opinion.

    sorry :)


  • #5546
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    keane2097 wrote: »
    I don't think it's superficial at all.

    A club that has challenged for league and continental honours in perpetuity gets handed over from the greatest manager of the era to a new guy with no top class defenders or midfielders.

    The performances that resulted were exactly what was to be expected from a decent manager in charge of a middling squad. That the squad was used to being managed by a living legend probably made them perform even worse than their level, but that squad was only probably borderline capable of getting top four under Moyes even in the best of circumstances.

    More or less what I was saying last year but nobody wanted to hear it.


  • #5547
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,199 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    bangkok wrote: »
    but that is only your opinion.

    Its mine too.


  • #5548
    bangkok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,638 ✭✭✭✭bangkok


    this is why Carrick is the most underrated player in the league imo.


  • #5549
    Pro. F
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    bangkok wrote: »
    but that is only your opinion.

    Since you are back, I'll ask again. What was that post about? Why did you reply to a post of mine with a picture of Britton and Gower?


  • #5550
    Pro. F
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    keane2097 wrote: »
    I don't think it's superficial at all.

    A club that has challenged for league and continental honours in perpetuity gets handed over from the greatest manager of the era to a new guy with no top class defenders or midfielders.

    The performances that resulted were exactly what was to be expected from a decent manager in charge of a middling squad. That the squad was used to being managed by a living legend probably made them perform even worse than their level, but that squad was only probably borderline capable of getting top four under Moyes even in the best of circumstances.

    Top class players, by my definition, in every area of the field are not what is required to finish in the top four. I don't think that Arsenal have top class defenders, goalkeepers or strikers, yet I would say they are well capable of finishing in the top four with good management. Liverpool and Spurs are more lacking, but I would still say that those squads have a chance once they are managed well.

    You might have expected a decent manger (and whoever was in charge of transfers) to make such a balls of basic things like buying players that we need and sending them out on the pitch with appropriate training and instruction. But I would demand more before I would label the management of the club as "decent".

    In terms of squad strength and available funds Fergie left a club that was comfortably positioned to be finishing in the top four and then move forward from there.


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  • #5551
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,199 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Pro. F wrote: »
    Top class players, by my definition, in every area of the field are not what is required to finish in the top four. I don't think that Arsenal have top class defenders, goalkeepers or strikers, yet I would say they are well capable of finishing in the top four with good management. Liverpool and Spurs are more lacking, but I would still say that those squads have a chance once they are managed well.
    Why are you banging on about top four when that was never what Keane2097 said? He made his point quite clear
    A club that has challenged for league and continental honours in perpetuity gets handed over from the greatest manager of the era to a new guy with no top class defenders or midfielders.
    Its a very valid point and has nothing to do with any basic aim of finishing top four. What was supposed to be one of the biggest clubs in the world got handed to a new manager with zero top class defenders and zero top class midfielders, it's actually shocking that it was the case.


This discussion has been closed.
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