Stephen Fry on confronting god after death

05-02-2015 11:09AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But that's not what you said. You said

Now, how do parents choose a secular school when you admit there are none?

I don't see you point here at all to be honest, I never said anything about parents choosing a secular schools and there are secular schools called educate together.

floggg · 05-02-2015 11:09AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Very little if any of it. Most of it was myth, metaphor or parable. I'm more into imperical evidence myself or in the absence of that sound logical reasoning.

In any case the Christian god is of the spiritual rather than the material realm, another cornerstone. He doesn't do interventions is my view of it. The idea that he would zap eye worms and stuff like that is pretty foolish.

So god didn't talk to Moses then, or part the red sea?

Presumably god didn't therefore give Moses the 10 Commandments, or otherwise author them. I mean, if he doesn't intervene, how could he give us messages?

Can we therefore ignore them? Can we also ignore all the bits where he appeared as a burning bush, or spoke directly to the prophets?

What about Jesus? Can we conclude that he wasn't the son of god - since sending your son/yourself in the form of your son to earth would be a freaking huge intervention?*

And how was the bible written/composed? I had understand it was the word of god or inspired by him or some such, particualrly the OT. But since god doesn't intervene, then he couldn't have given us any information directly.

Does that mean all the leviticus laws are just made up hogwash? what about the rest of the OT? did man just guess it? So can we ignore that to?

What are we left with though if we assume he didn't actually do or say any of the stuff it says he did in the bible? Guess work? the results of a heavy acid trip?

* imagine being your own father? That **** must be trippy!

conorhal · 05-02-2015 11:09AM

sky88 wrote: »

i dont disagree with him but theres always been something about stephen fry i dont like, he comes across as so smug with everything he says

Agreed. I used to like Fry but I suspect you can track his transition from 'erudite and charming' to 'insufferably self-important bore' to a point not long after his ascention to to the status as 'Stephen Fry National Treasure'. All the attendent ass kissing that goes with the status of national treasure seems to have inflated his ego to such irritating levels that, right or not, I almost reflexively disagree with him these days.

Dan_Solo · 05-02-2015 11:10AM

floggg wrote: »

Fry never said the presence of evil was evidence for god's non-existence. He was asked the question "if you met god, what would you say to him." Therefore, in answering the question he was required to assume that God did exist, and answered on that basis.

This is what struck me throughout this thread and other discussions. Theists just skip the fact that Fry is giving a response to a hypothetical question, almost as if they can't comprehend that he is an atheist at all.
Or just plain can't listen properly.

Dan_Solo · 05-02-2015 11:11AM

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

I don't see you point here at all to be honest, I never said anything about parents choosing a secular schools and there are secular schools called educate together.

You said there were no secular schools. I've quoted you multiple times. Yet you say parents choose faith schools.
You're deliberately pretending not to understand at this stage. And it's an embarrassing spectacle TBH.

floggg · 05-02-2015 11:22AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

See my post above. I will summarise my argument to make it easier for you.

God is of the spiritual and not the material realm, if he exists at all. He's not going to be appearing here zapping eye worms.

All manmade evil is caused by man not a god. All manmade evil can only be solved by man.

Most diseases in the world which badly affect children such as those which affect them in the third world are related to poverty and manmade evil such as civil wars. Again only physical men can cure them and prevent them not a spiritual superman.

Some people have a very infantile view of a god coming down, like santa claus, to individually help them with their problems. It's not goint to happen. Hating someone who may or may not exist is childish to be honest.

Hogwash.

That answer doesn't explain genetic diseases and conditions which affect rich and poor alike. Moreover, it's only in the last 200-300 years that we have had the ability to control diseases to any great extent at all.

It doesn't explain natural disasters and the pain and suffering they cause.

The only way your position would stand up to any scrutiny is if you asume god did not have any hand or part in creating the world we live in.

But if you don't believe in an interventionist creator god, it begs the question why do you go to mass to worship one.

Dan_Solo · 05-02-2015 11:25AM

floggg wrote: »

But if you don't believe in an interventionist creator god, it begs the question why do you go to mass to worship one.

My question before I was so rudely put on ignore for having a question he repeatedly wouldn't even attempt to answer was: how does he know anything at all about this god who has never interacted in any way with our universe?

floggg · 05-02-2015 11:25AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So you have no evidence whatsoever as he doesn't interact with our universe in any way.
Anything else that you have no evidence of at all that you propose we never possibly can have evidence of you would like us to consider for our amusement?

Adam Sandler's comedic genius.

Dan_Solo · 05-02-2015 11:27AM

floggg wrote: »

Adam Sandler's comedic genius.

Oops, I'm getting into the comedy of repetition now... but as long as it's not being answered I still find it funny!

floggg · 05-02-2015 11:28AM

RobertKK wrote: »

The problem is Fry wasn't very intellectual. I mean it says in Genesis that it was Adam and Eve who brought death and evil into the world, not God.

You would think an intellectual would know this.

Adam and Eve didn't have the power to create either.

God did though, and apparently put them inside an apple.

Also, Adam and Eve wouldn't have the capacity to do wrong unless god created them to be so capable.

Dan_Solo · 05-02-2015 11:31AM

floggg wrote: »

Adam and Eve didn't have the power to create either.

God did though, and apparently put them inside an apple.

Also, Adam and Eve wouldn't have the capacity to do wrong unless god created them to be so capable.

He also made satan and gave him the power to polymorph into a serpent and let him schnaake his way into the Garden of Eden.
Sounds like entrapment to me.

conorhal · 05-02-2015 11:33AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

He also made satan and gave him the power to polymorph into a serpent and let him schnaake his way into the Garden of Eden.
Sounds like entrapment to me.

The satan-snake is only a metaphor people!

(for big cocks I believe)

Grayson · 05-02-2015 11:33AM

RobertKK wrote: »

No, an intellectual could use Harry Potter and totally change the story, because the intellectual is correct and not the person who wrote the book.
Well that is how people treat Stephen Fry when he does religion. Talk about the Judeo Christian God, but then totally ignore the source of information on that God to make up one's own version so to change the character of God or why the book says something exists in the world.

You get the gullible going 'he is so right, what a horrible God', and 'Love Stephen Fry. he is such an intellectual'.
Some say the bible is akin to fairy tales, yet accept the fairy tales of Stephen Fry.

Rejecting a fairy tale is not a fairy tale. I'm not sure if you were ever actually told what a fairytale is.

Besides the god in the bible murders masses and inflicts horrific amounts of pain. He also induces his followers to commit genocide, torture, rape and a host of other crimes. That God can in no way be called nice or just or loving. That god is evil.

And even without the bible, if we look at the world around us, can we honestly draw a conclusion that there is a loving God?
The watchmaker analogy is an argument loved by Christians. It states that if we look at the world we can therefore assume there is a designer. If we use the same logic then we can assume that God is evil. We can draw assumptions from the nature of the world just like they use for intelligent design.
The world is harsh and cruel. It';s nasty. there's horrific infections and parasites. There's predators. the only kindness in the world comes from humans. And humans are just as nasty as they are kind.
If this world has a designer it's clear that He/She didn't love the inhabitants that were placed here.

seamus · 05-02-2015 11:38AM

floggg wrote: »

Also, Adam and Eve wouldn't have the capacity to do wrong unless god created them to be so capable.

Let's not forget that Adam and Eve were created without an understand of the difference between good and evil, yet God expected them to understand that eating from the tree of knowledge was evil. And then punished them for doing wrong when they lacked the ability to understand what that means.

The whole creation narrative is such a logical mess, you couldn't even make a bad B-movie out of it.

05-02-2015 11:40AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

My question before I was so rudely put on ignore for having a question he repeatedly wouldn't even attempt to answer was: how does he know anything at all about this god who has never interacted in any way with our universe?

Even in recent times: Knock, Fatima, Medjugorje to name a few???

Dan_Solo · 05-02-2015 11:41AM

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

Even in recent times: Knock, Fatima, Medjugorje to name a few???

Response was to a post quoting Shurimgreat's opinion that god never intervenes on earth.

EDIT: although since RobertKK appears to be having some difficulty answering, is it your opinion that your god can predict what people do?

The Backwards Man · 05-02-2015 11:43AM

Ballinspittle?

floggg · 05-02-2015 11:49AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Where did I say I was a theist? Where did I say he was my god. And did you miss the part where I said I was pointing out cornerstones of christianity, not condoning them. I'm laughing here at the irrationality of most of your posts.

your description of god would be seen as blasphemous by most Christians. You deny that he is the creator, that he intervened in anyway way with the world, or that he has any control over this earth.

mikhail · 05-02-2015 11:49AM

seamus wrote: »

Let's not forget that Adam and Eve were created without an understand of the difference between good and evil, yet God expected them to understand that eating from the tree of knowledge was evil. And then punished them for doing wrong when they lacked the ability to understand what that means.

The whole creation narrative is such a logical mess, you couldn't even make a bad B-movie out of it.

Actually, he didn't expect them to understand the difference. He just expected them to obey him unquestioningly. That whole story is a power grab by early religious leaders - obey us or else.

Dan_Solo · 05-02-2015 11:52AM

mikhail wrote: »

Actually, he didn't expect them to understand the difference. He just expected them to obey him unquestioningly. That whole story is a power grab by early religious leaders - obey us or else.

You have free will as long as you do what you're told.
Gee, cheers for that one god. When's mass so I can thank you?

floggg · 05-02-2015 11:52AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Well what sort of god would it be if he for example wished the eye worms out of existance? Someone else would be saying, that was really mean!

You see what happens when you start playing god! You think you are doing the right thing but then you annoy someone else! Probably can see now why he wouldn't intervene. When you fix one thing you end up breaking something else. You solve one problem and create another.

Surely he could have just not made it in the first place, or made it to eat something else other than human eyes

floggg · 05-02-2015 11:56AM

Shrap wrote: »

Preaching to the converted here K4t! BTW, paragraphs will help your pretty intelligent posts be read in full.

I'll admit I never actually read them in full. Walls of text make my head hurt.

niamhstokes · 05-02-2015 11:57AM

Why do bad things happen to good people?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/biblestudies/articles/theology/badthingshappen.html

floggg · 05-02-2015 11:58AM

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Fair post thanks for getting back
But I have to add then there is nothing wrong with athiest-bashing too.

atheist bashing would be an assault and possible hate crime.

Of course atheism bashing would be entirely legal.

Though since atheism isn't a belief, but the absence of one, it's hard to intelligently bash.

floggg · 05-02-2015 11:59AM

RobertKK wrote: »

No, an intellectual could use Harry Potter and totally change the story, because the intellectual is correct and not the person who wrote the book.
Well that is how people treat Stephen Fry when he does religion. Talk about the Judeo Christian God, but then totally ignore the source of information on that God to make up one's own version so to change the character of God or why the book says something exists in the world.

You get the gullible going 'he is so right, what a horrible God', and 'Love Stephen Fry. he is such an intellectual'.
Some say the bible is akin to fairy tales, yet accept the fairy tales of Stephen Fry.

i love how you ignored the various posts pointing out the flaw in the genesis account - namely that Adam and Eve could only bring even unto the world if God gave them the capacity to do so.

Ergo, God dunnit.

Dan_Solo · 05-02-2015 12:02PM

niamhstokes wrote: »

Why do bad things happen to good people?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/biblestudies/articles/theology/badthingshappen.html

Is making us read that drivel a bad thing happening to good people?
Just from page 1 is all the stuff we've been through many times here already. Why does god need to prepare us for anything through suffering? What's the point? What does he get out of it?

Ush1 · 05-02-2015 12:04PM

The holy stone of Clonrichert.

floggg · 05-02-2015 12:05PM

Grayson wrote: »

Rejecting a fairy tale is not a fairy tale. I'm not sure if you were ever actually told what a fairytale is.

Besides the god in the bible murders masses and inflicts horrific amounts of pain. He also induces his followers to commit genocide, torture, rape and a host of other crimes. That God can in no way be called nice or just or loving. That god is evil.

And even without the bible, if we look at the world around us, can we honestly draw a conclusion that there is a loving God?
The watchmaker analogy is an argument loved by Christians. It states that if we look at the world we can therefore assume there is a designer. If we use the same logic then we can assume that God is evil. We can draw assumptions from the nature of the world just like they use for intelligent design.
The world is harsh and cruel. It';s nasty. there's horrific infections and parasites. There's predators. the only kindness in the world comes from humans. And humans are just as nasty as they are kind.
If this world has a designer it's clear that He/She didn't love the inhabitants that were placed here.

The warch maker analogy is stupid. The complexity of the earth is what argues against a god for me.

If you were an all powerful god with the power to invent the laws of physics and chemistry, why would you make them all so complex?

That's certainly not the type of stuff we can conjure into being in seven days.

niamhstokes · 05-02-2015 12:07PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZwJDPaWsaA

floggg · 05-02-2015 12:09PM

seamus wrote: »

Let's not forget that Adam and Eve were created without an understand of the difference between good and evil, yet God expected them to understand that eating from the tree of knowledge was evil. And then punished them for doing wrong when they lacked the ability to understand what that means.

The whole creation narrative is such a logical mess, you couldn't even make a bad B-movie out of it.

so instead they made an appalling A-Movie out of the Noah myth!

Stephen Fry on confronting god after death

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