Stephen Fry on confronting god after death

Terrlock wrote: »

So if they wrote the bible...they weren't primitive.

Yes, primitive describes pre literate societies.

Also are you sure it was just the Jews who wrote the bible?

I far as I was aware it was the jews that wrote the bible, they wrote the old testament and then another jew started a new movement and his followers wrote the new testament.

That's just made up - They must have known a lot of those things as the bible talks about them. In fact many of the scientific facts the bible talks about weren't discovered to be true for centuries later by scientists.

What scientific facts does the bible talk about? If you can provide any proof they knew about and could explain the things I mentioned I'd be delighted to hear it.

floggg wrote: »

That was not my argument.

My argument is that if god existed, then because of the evils in this world, he is either a dick or not as powerful and all seeing as he claims.

In which case he is a liar, so would still be kind of a dick.

And this is exactly what I addressed ,it seems that you have not read what I wrote regarding this argument so I will quote it here again:

If a God is omnipotent and loving, but the world is full of suffering, then that God can't exist.

This argument only works if God is all good and all powerful, but your forgetting that he's also all wise and he's also all knowing, you have the pixel he have the picture, you have the puzzle piece he has the puzzle. You do not have his knowledge or Wisdom to understand why X or Y exist.

Secondly from a theistic perspective we are created to have a relationship with God, there's not a single thorn that will prick you except that you will be expiated for your sins and elevated in terms of your rank in paradise, hardship and suffering in this life is not only temporary but will not go unrewarded in the next life, as this life is nothing but a mere test and trail.
God gave mankind free will, the freedom to choose between right and wrong. What that mean is that inevitably it's the choice to do the Evil which is the Evil and not the fact that God created it.

It's the choice of Man that's evil, but that does not mean God is happy with that decision nor pleased with it, but because God has given him the choice he had created and given that choice an external manifestation.

That does not mean that there isn't a plan or wisdom to the fact that it occurred; we see that when a catastrophes occur what do people do? you see them flocking to centres where they can donate their wealth and time so that they can help the poor and weak.
We don't have the knowledge or information about everything, calamities bring out the true nature of people it also bring the best of people.
There is Good and Evil {including all of what they entail} in existence, but Good is the norm and Evil is the exception. Good Health is the standard and norm and illness is but a temporary situation. The stability of Earth is the norm but an earthquake is but an exception for a few minutes, after a while everything will return to normal, similarly wars are but short periods in history followed by long periods of peace. Hence Good is the rule and evil is the exception.

To add that evil is not evil from both sides, for every evil there's a good side that accompanies it. A Volcano eruption brings much Evil but at the same there's a Good that will follow which we cannot ignore here's but a few:

the many precious gems and building materials that can only come from volcanoes. Opals and obsidian are produced in volcanoes. Volcanic eruptions produce pumice stones, which people have used to remove excess skin. Hardened volcanic ash, called tuff makes a strong, lightweight building material.
Regions of volcanic activity are enormous sources of geothermal energy. One of the most volcanically active regions in the world is Iceland, and they generate a sizable portion of their energy from geothermal energy.

The same can be said about earthquake and the goodness which follows after the destruction caused, which you can read about to avoid extending this post.
Illness will create resistance and make us value health, and from poison antidote is made, and while on on one side War brought horrible destruction a good side follows as will, for example all the efforts to unite the world were brought about after periods of wars. The united nations security council, NATO and the league of Nations, so from the struggle of war these attempts were made so humanity as a family might come together to prevent such tragedies.

To include that many inventions that advanced humanity were made during the time of war such as the mass production of penicillin by the US during the Invasion of Normandy, depth Charges,hydrophones, air traffic control,air craft carriers pilot less drones. The list is very long just search about technological advancement made during war.

Billions were invested to make weapons but forcefully and unwillingly advancement were made in both fields of destruction and Good. Evil is not evil from all its faces, it's evil from one side and Good from one, I think its even safe to say that they complement each other Good can exist on its own in a pure form but never Evil.

Hardship and struggle will also strengthen people, their wills will increase, their wisdom and understanding; as they say what ever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. As the Arabian poet Al Mutanabbi have said:
"Without hardship everyone would prevail, The generous are poor, and courage kills its own.”

The poet meant that without hardship & evil everyone will be a leader and the two leading qualities found in leaders that will bring about struggle and hardship is generousness which lead to loss of wealth and courage which might lead to death in wars.

To say that the world if full of evil,misery,suffering and struggle is a very naive and incomplete poor outlook on the realities of life and the world around us; what's even more naive is for an atheist to blame it all on a God which he does not even believe in.

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

You keep quoting from the Bible is if it's not a load of made up nonsense, full of contradictions and misinformation.

"The foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength."

The bible is not full of contradictions or misinformation.

It also will appear foolish to someone who denies the Lord and his word.

You need to be born again to understand the ways of God.

Terrlock wrote: »

"The foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength."

The bible is not full of contradictions or misinformation.

It also will appear foolish to someone who denies the Lord and his word.

You need to be born again to understand the ways of God.

It most certainly does.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

That's about observation, which you have decided to conflate with consciousness or "reality". A camera could make the observation. You are saying cameras have a spirit?

A camera can't make the observation on it's own. A camera is just a proxy method for humans to view an event.

ScumLord wrote: »

Yes, primitive describes pre literate societies.

I far as I was aware it was the jews that wrote the bible, they wrote the old testament and then another jew started a new movement and his followers wrote the new testament.

The Jews consist of only one tribe of Israel whom came out of Egypt. Moses is said to have written the first 5 books of the torah. Was he a Jew?

ScumLord wrote: »

What scientific facts does the bible talk about? If you can provide any proof they knew about and could explain the things I mentioned I'd be delighted to hear it.

They knew the world was around, when every other culture didn't.

They knew the world floats in space, while other cultures thought it sat on the back of a turtle.

they knew that everything was made up of particles, indiscernible to our eyes(Atoms and such)

They knew the ideal dimension for ship stability thousands of years before the rest of the world.


They knew when dealing with disease, clothes and body should be washed under running water.

Some 3,500 years ago God commanded His people to have a place outside the camp where they could relieve themselves. They were to each carry a shovel so that they could dig a hole (latrine) and cover their waste. Up until World War I, more soldiers died from disease than war because they did not isolate human waste.

They knew the oceans contains springs - We didn't know that until the 1970's

They knew that our bodies were made from Dust - Scientists have discovered that the human body is comprised of some 28 base and trace elements – all of which are found in the earth.

The list really goes on and on. These are not something a so called primitive people would know about.

Terrlock wrote: »

The Jews consist of only one tribe of Israel whom came out of Egypt. Moses is said to have written the first 5 books of the torah. Was he a Jew?



They new the world was around, when every other culture didn't.

They new the world floats in space, while other cultures thought it sat on the back of a turtle.

they new that everything was made up of particles, indiscernible to our eyes(Atoms and such)

They new the ideal dimension for ship stability thousands of years before the rest of the world.


They new when dealing with disease, clothes and body should be washed under running water.

Some 3,500 years ago God commanded His people to have a place outside the camp where they could relieve themselves. They were to each carry a shovel so that they could dig a hole (latrine) and cover their waste. Up until World War I, more soldiers died from disease than war because they did not isolate human waste.

They new the oceans contains springs - We didn't know that until the 1970's

They new that our bodies were made from Dust - Scientists have discovered that the human body is comprised of some 28 base and trace elements – all of which are found in the earth.

The list really goes on and on. These are not something a so called primitive people would know about.

Ah ok, Trolly Troll

Terrlock wrote: »

The Jews consist of only one tribe of Israel whom came out of Egypt.

Sorry but I thought you said earlier that the word "Jew" only describes religion, not a race, peoples...? And you didn't answer my question!

danrua01 wrote: »

Why force your religion on someone else?

I don't force anyone.

ScumLord wrote: »

It played a role yes but many colonisations were just a change of management. Some lands were so used to being invaded that it was just a matter of them getting a new tax collector. It all depends on the era but in the early days I think the church was probably a much nicer, more open and less of a tool of power mongering and that their intentions and actions were pretty decent. The Catholic church wasn't really the Christianity that came to Ireland originally, we had our own pretty unique version that saw colleges and hospitals popping up and Ireland becoming known as the island of saints and scholars. Europe was in turmoil, there were never ending power struggles and a culture of violence. That wasn't the fault of the church, sure the church got involved but they were just a player rather than the instrumentors.

You can't really judge people back then by modern standards. It was a different society and what was considered normal was different.

Please do tell that to the indigenous peoples of the Carribean Islands.

Oh thats right, you can't. They are all dead.

(My hatred for missionaries can probably be attributed to Things Fall Apart. Poor Okonkwo).

danrua01 wrote: »

What about what I posted earlier, about everything that's forbidden by the Bible, but that people don't follow? Yet gays can't get married.

Just going back through your posts are you referring to these Law in the OT?

There are some great things that are banned by the OT...:

- not being circumcised;
- breaking the Sabbath;
- being a town that believes in another god;
- eating anything that mixes meat and dairy;
- eating fat
- working on the Sabbath;
- being a stubborn, rebellious, and drunkard son;
- planting more than one kind of seed in a field;
- cutting the hair on the sides of our head;
- living in a city that failed to surrender to the israelites

let's not forget the NT disallows women from speaking in church.


If you read the NT especially acts you see that these Laws don't apply to the Gentiles.

Also Jesus refers to the circumcision of your heart not your flesh.



Also for Gays getting married?


Marriage is a blessing from God uniting Man and women as one.

That's its purpose. Scripture talks about towards end times there will be more and more people coming out as gay and this shows how fallen and corrupt man has become to even the extent as his own nature is corrupt.

God won't unite two men or women in marriage no matter how much anyone would want him too. There isn't much that I or anyone can do to persuade him otherwise I'd imagine.

Mesrine65 wrote: »

They knew how to spell knew :eek:

Quite right they did. Thanks for that.

pueblo wrote: »

Ok, your sarcasm is noted.

I don't expect to 'explain' spirituality to anyone. The problem here is the word 'explain' which implies use of logic.

Unfortunately the only way to 'understand' spirituality is to experience it, using your spirit, not your mind.

I get your whole point, and in a way it makes sense.

But it still boils down to "woo, god/spirituality are mysterious and more complex than the puny human mind can handle so it doesn't make sense" - which is an answer that can be applied to any question we ask of god/religion.

It makes for terrible debate though, because you never have to provide any answer - just keep applying the same answer to everything.