Stephen Fry on confronting god after death

Kirby · 03-02-2015 11:09AM

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

You posting is highly offensive to Catholics you know that, I don't even know why you are allowed post the bile you are spewing.

I might choose to take offense at the spider camped out in the corner of my room. Tell me....is that the spiders fault? Or mine. The spiders issue? Or mine. Should the spider be not allowed to exist because I choose to find it offensive?

You can choose to take offense to whatever you want. Because it's a choice.

Be glad you live such a privileged existence that you can sit there and be offended.

kunst nugget · 03-02-2015 11:10AM

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

You posting is highly offensive to Catholics you know that, I don't even know why you are allowed post the bile you are spewing.

Tbf, it's only offensive to you if you let it be. Also, considering the pervasive influence of the Catholic Church in this country and the legacy it has in relation to human rights abuses of some of the most vulnerable in society means that many are unwilling to forgive the Church.

I think, however, that our treatment of asylum seekers in detention centres around the country shows that we are, as a nation, more than capable of being horrible arses without the influence of the Catholic Church.

folan · 03-02-2015 11:12AM

danrua01 wrote: »

I believe in one thing, you believe in the other, your thinking doesn't affect my life, nor mine yours...just carry on!

3 stupid areas where christian beliefs affect life in Ireland:
1) St. Patricks day being a bank holiday
2) Good Friday and buying alcohol.
3) Listening to people bitch about how christmas starts earlier every year.

3 real areas where christian beliefs affect life in Ireland:
1) Gay rights
2) A womans right to choose
3) Issues around the legality of the declaration of the President of Ireland

03-02-2015 11:13AM

Kirby wrote: »

I might choose to take offense at the spider camped out in the corner of my room. Tell me....is that the spiders fault? Or mine. The spiders issue? Or mine. Should the spider be not allowed to exist because I choose to find it offensive?

You can choose to take offense to whatever you want. Because it's a choice.

Be glad you live such a privileged existence that you can sit there and be offended.

Please, he is attacking Catholics by calling their religion a "disease" many other offensive terms.

You analogy with a spider is stupid.

If I went and kicked you in the face would you be offended? The posts by that (and many other) posters are along the lines of that.

Dan_Solo · 03-02-2015 11:13AM

danrua01 wrote: »

Fair enough. Thankfully it doesn't affect me at all so that's good!

It does, which isn't good.

kunst nugget · 03-02-2015 11:13AM

danrua01 wrote: »

I don't understand why we can't just accept that people have different beliefs and get on with our lives. I believe in one thing, you believe in the other, your thinking doesn't affect my life, nor mine yours...just carry on!

That is never going to be the reality of the situation though. Especially in a country where the school system is completely in hock to one religious doctrine.

danrua01 · 03-02-2015 11:13AM

folan wrote: »

3 stupid areas where christian beliefs affect life in Ireland:
1) St. Patricks day being a bank holiday
2) Good Friday and buying alcohol.
3) Listening to people bitch about how christmas starts earlier every year.

3 real areas where christian beliefs affect life in Ireland:
1) Gay rights
2) A womans right to choose
3) Issues around the legality of the declaration of the President of Ireland

I suppose you're right there. The first three I'd personally put down as being trivial annoyances, but the rest are huge issues, absolutely...

Dan_Solo · 03-02-2015 11:14AM

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

Please, he is attacking Catholics by calling their religion a "disease" many other offensive terms.

You analogy with a spider is laughably stupid.

If I went you and kicked you in the face would you be offended? The posts by that (and many other) posters are along the lines of that.

If you kicked my beliefs in the face I wouldn't be in the slightest offended.
(you're making about as much sense here mate)

RobertKK · 03-02-2015 11:15AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

As long as the church is inextricably tied into the Irish state and the education system, I'm afraid I'll be taking far more offence at the Catholic side of this argument.

Well then you are blaming the wrong group. The Catholic and Protestant education system was there before the state.

It was the state who chose the education system that religious groups set up to educate the people when there was no education, like at the time of the penal laws when Catholics were forbidden an education.

I remember Bertie said that what religious groups provide in education has saved the state billions.

The problem is religious groups have put education as being very important and were proactive, those against it just moan and want everything handed to them.

03-02-2015 11:15AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If you kicked my beliefs in the face I wouldn't be in the slightest offended.
(you're making about as much sense here mate)

A person and their beliefs are one in the same.

Dan_Solo · 03-02-2015 11:17AM

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

A person and their beliefs are one in the same.

Then how can people convert from one religion to another?
I call BS.
Also, by this logic, you calling Kirbys' spider analogy "stupid" is calling Kirby stupid. You don't mind if I report you for personal abuse by your own (hahaha) reasoning?

folan · 03-02-2015 11:18AM

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

A person and their beliefs are one in the same.

a person who allows themselves to be defined by a belief can be a troublesome thing.

Bendihorse · 03-02-2015 11:20AM

There's only one thing worse than that oul Gayeen Byrne and that's Gayeen Byrne and Stephen Fry in a room, together, at the same time.

Dan_Solo · 03-02-2015 11:21AM

RobertKK wrote: »

I remember Bertie said that what religious groups provide in education has saved the state billions.

Good man Bertie. How much did he cost us himself that crook.
Teachers get paid by the state. The church has a vested interest in teaching their fantasyland fictions to the youth of Ireland. If you told the religious orders they weren't allowed to brainwash with religion we'd see how much longer they'd be interested.

RobertKK · 03-02-2015 11:22AM

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

A person and their beliefs are one in the same.

Some don't understand that the beliefs of a person that is a part of who they are, a part of their identity.

I think K4t should be careful linking the words religion and disease together, they did this in Germany before WW2 against the Jews. It shows a deep unhealthy hatred towards fellow human beings.

floggg · 03-02-2015 11:23AM

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Great, that's really good and I applaud you for this as really the majority of people who hold a religious belief hold such a belief because of a blind following to what they were raised with, he's a Christian because his parents are, he's a Muslim because his parents are, but you decided to think for yourself which is what am applauding here.

But it's useless to question whether God is Evil because Evil exist in the world when you don't believe in a God to begin, for an Atheist with a materialistic outlook the suffering and evil is caused by Humans themselves and the process of evolution and natural selection to deem those best capable of surviving in the harshest of conditions to spread their genes. We have enough resources in this planet to feed two extra planet unfortunately these resources and being hoarded not by God but those among us belonging to the same race as us. There are people who lives lavishly with money houses and cars while people are dying in Africa these people play a role in the suffering on earth and to blame all this on a God which you dont even believe in is extremely naive and complete silliness.

As this argument is not even a refutation or a contention with regard to God existence but rather it questions the nature of God, and a question regarding a Nature of God when you dont even believe in a God does not make sense to me.

I understand that your trying to do a correlation between understanding God and understanding Elves so forgive me if I misunderstood as this is a faulty comparison between completely unrelated subjects.
Secondly God cannot further be compared with Elves as God is a basic cross cultural belief and a belief in a God is not culturally bond. Believing in Icelandic Elves means I would need to have been brought up in a culture where am taught about such a thing, the idea of God however, the basic underlying idea of a creator and a supernatural cause for the universe is cross cultural. It's not subject on culture but transcend it, just like the belief in causality and the existence of other minds.

I think you are really misunderstanding this discussion.

We are having a hypothetical discussion about the nature of god IF he actually existed.

I don't believe in god, so I do not and cannot blame him/her for anything. IF he did exist though, then I would blame him because he has created a world which allows and encourages it.

Also, if you intended to describe atheists as having a materialistic outlook generally, then you are both ignorant and misguided and rather petty. To do so would be as absurd as describing christians as having a materialistic outlook.

In each case, some do and some don't.

In the case of atheists, there is no common traits or beliefs other than a non-belief in deitys,so attempting to apply any singular description is ridiculous (at least I can point to the wealth and fortunes many Christian churches seek in order to justify an argument about christianity's materialism if I wished to do so).

It's kind of reflective of a certain christian/religious way of thinking - that without religion atheists are just base creatures motivate by greed and lust devoid of morals. That really says more about them though then atheists - since they seem to think religion and fear of eternal punishment as necessary in order to coerce moral behaviour.

Whereas on the other hand atheists don't need any coercion or fear of punishment to live in a moral man - they see it as something which is inherently good and desirable for its own sake.

RobertKK · 03-02-2015 11:23AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Good man Bertie. How much did he cost us himself that crook.
Teachers get paid by the state. The church has a vested interest in teaching their fantasyland fictions to the youth of Ireland. If you told the religious orders they weren't allowed to brainwash with religion we'd see how much longer they'd be interested.

I think you will find they have to teach the national curriculum for teachers to be paid.

Dan_Solo · 03-02-2015 11:24AM

RobertKK wrote: »

Some don't understand that the beliefs of a person that is a part of who they are, a part of their identity.

I think K4t should be careful linking the words religion and disease together, they did this in Germany before WW2 against the Jews. It shows a deep unhealthy hatred towards fellow human beings.

More utter BS. Getting the Godwin in early, eh?
The Nazis were about racial purity. They didn't give a monkey's about the Jewish religion itself. Incredibly basic stuff and you're making a fool of yourself cocking the story up like this.
Explain then, if you are your religion, how can you convert?

Dan_Solo · 03-02-2015 11:25AM

RobertKK wrote: »

I think you will find they have to teach the national curriculum for teachers to be paid.

That's odd, a second ago you were claiming religious orders were providing all the teaching... now you say the state is paying for it?
Plan on making up your mind any time soon?

danrua01 · 03-02-2015 11:27AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Explain then, if you are your religion, how can you convert?

Metamorphosis! Maybe we've been reading Franz Kafka all wrong...

Kirby · 03-02-2015 11:29AM

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

Please, he is attacking Catholics by calling their religion a "disease" many other offensive terms.

You analogy with a spider is stupid.

If I went and kicked you in the face would you be offended? The posts by that (and many other) posters are along the lines of that.

If you kicked me in the face, it would be assault and you would be arrested. Nobody in here is assaulting anybody and nothing in here is "along the lines of that".

The analogy of the spider works fine. I might not like him, but I can choose to ignore him. You can choose to ignore people you disagree with or you can choose to be offended. It's your choice.

Nobody "offended you". It's not an action like kicking somebody is. You chose to be offended by something.

bigslick · 03-02-2015 11:33AM

pueblo wrote: »

The tricky questions of suffering and evil in the world aren't as tricky as they appear.

We have free will, we have been left to our own devices in this world. Suffering exists because we are temporal creatures, we live, we die. Dying quite often involves pain. Life too involves pain. It's part of being human.

I imagine you may have difficulty explaining to a young child with a terminal illness who doesnt understand why he/she is dying/in pain that is "just part of being human"

pueblo wrote: »

Just because you don't understand quantum mechanics, doesn't mean black holes don't exist, maybe you don't believe in black holes because you personally cannot confirm or deny their existence?

I certainly dont understand quantum mechanics to understand if black holes exist or not, but the great thing is that there are scientists who spend their life trying to prove if they do are not (Stephen Hawking for example), and they are experts in their fields, using scientific method and evidence. While many religious individuals (you may not be included in this group) say "well you cant prove god doesnt exist!!" which is such a flawed argument, and yet is constantly used over and over.

kunst nugget · 03-02-2015 11:34AM

RobertKK wrote: »

I think K4t should be careful linking the words religion and disease together, they did this in Germany before WW2 against the Jews. It shows a deep unhealthy hatred towards fellow human beings.

He was talking about the pernicious influence of the Catholic Church itself on Irish society and not the people practicing the religion. But don't let that get into way of getting a good Nazi reference in.

folan · 03-02-2015 11:36AM

RobertKK wrote: »

I think you will find they have to teach the national curriculum for teachers to be paid.

you will find that the nature of religious education changes in differing schools, such as Educate Together schools and Christian schools.

Baggy Trousers · 03-02-2015 11:40AM

RobertKK wrote: »

Some don't understand that the beliefs of a person that is a part of who they are, a part of their identity.

I think K4t should be careful linking the words religion and disease together, they did this in Germany before WW2 against the Jews. It shows a deep unhealthy hatred towards fellow human beings.

Not OTT there at all Robert!

The old Nazi card, I love it!

RobertKK · 03-02-2015 11:41AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

More utter BS. Getting the Godwin in early, eh?
The Nazis were about racial purity. They didn't give a monkey's about the Jewish religion itself. Incredibly basic stuff and you're making a fool of yourself cocking the story up like this.
Explain then, if you are your religion, how can you convert?

You can use Godwins law if you wish, but facts are facts.

We can all choose to look at someone we don't agree with as being somehow 'diseased'.

There are lots of things that make up a person's identity, their family, their job, their background, their religion or none, how rich or poor they are, their sexuality, their personality and so on.
One can't isolate a part of what is and then think it is fine to attack them over it, a person's identity is like a jigsaw, made up of many pieces. A lot of people have a piece of that jigsaw named faith or religion.

People can change or lose some of the pieces of the jigsaw over time and replace them with something different.
Implying someone is diseased for having a religion is like saying a gay person is diseased, you are attacking a part of what makes them who they are, and I don't believe anyone has a right to say someone is diseased for simply being different to who you are.

Dan_Solo · 03-02-2015 11:41AM

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Not OTT there at all Robert!

The old Nazi card, I love it!

It's not even correct, but that'll hardly stop him either.

pueblo · 03-02-2015 11:41AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

How can god tell the future if he gave us free will? Revelation is all a bit pointless if we've decided to be good children, no?

Again I am going to be accused of using the 'cover all' argument!

So anyway, if God exists and if he is the creator then presumably he knows a thing or two we don't know, things we are probably incapable of knowing.

Based on this assertion it is entirely possible for us to have free will and at the same time for God to be able to know the choices we will make with that free will.

I am fully aware this raises questions of pre-destination. I don't have the answers, and haven't claimed to. I do however have some good questions and an open mind.

RobertKK · 03-02-2015 11:45AM

folan wrote: »

you will find that the nature of religious education changes in differing schools, such as Educate Together schools and Christian schools.

Is there any evidence to support the standards of education in any of them gives a different outcome?

We know areas that have more deprived people have worse outcomes, which is the deciding factor, not the type of school.

Dan_Solo · 03-02-2015 11:48AM

RobertKK wrote: »

You can use Godwins law if you wish, but facts are facts.

It's a fact that the Nazis killed Jews because of their religion, not because of their race?
Are you for flippin' real?

Stephen Fry on confronting god after death

Comments