Setanta 3pm games - terrible matches ??

radiowaves · 02-02-2015 09:23AM

efb wrote: »

BPL apologies

Nothing to apologise for, just a curiosity for me. The competition has a specific name yet I see it called allsorts across the interweb.

And following up your first point that the Prenier League may be concerned that Setanta is easily received in the UK, even if that were the case it would not be a reason for the current restrictions. Other channels that have been easily pirated in the UK have been forced to stop showing 3pms altogether, not forced to work to restrictions.

It has been well documented at this stage that Setanta are working to restrictions and the reason is because they and BT are available under one subscription.

The only question really remaining is what the restrictions actually are.

efb · 02-02-2015 09:25AM

radiowaves wrote: »

Nothing to apologise for, just a curiosity for me. The competition has a specific name yet I see it called allsorts across the interweb.

And following up your first point that the Prenier League may be concerned that Setanta is easily received in the UK, even if that were the case it would not be a reason for the current restrictions. Other channels that have been easily pirated in the UK have been forced to stop showing 3pms altogether, not forced to work to restrictions.

It has been well documented at this stage that Setanta are working to restrictions and the reason is because they and BT are available under one subscription.

The only question really remaining is what the restrictions actually are.

I thought they'd have to show every team at least twice. Isn't that standard?

radiowaves · 02-02-2015 09:32AM

efb wrote: »

I thought they'd have to show every team at least twice. Isn't that standard?

What standard is that? Where has it ever been applied to make it a standard? And where are you getting your information from?

Let's assume you're right how do you explain their picks?

Why would they show Sunderland and Burnley etc so many times whilst ignoring the big hitters like Manchester United, Liverpool and Chelsea etc. It doesn't make sense on any level.

You really can't apply restrictions to the 3pm fixtures in isolation. They are variable and reliant on other factors (UKTV picks, Europa League and - albeit rarely - police advice).

The only way their picks make sense is that they are tied in to BT's in some way. So whilst BT will obviously max out on Manchester United, Liverpool and other big teams they won't on the so-called lesser teams. This might explain Setanta's bizarre - when viewed in isolation - choices.

Selhurst · 02-02-2015 10:25AM

Palace v Leicester Next Saturday I am happy enough :-).

radiowaves · 02-02-2015 10:31AM

Selhurst wrote: »

Palace v Leicester Next Saturday I am happy enough :-).

You, and about 4 others

Meanwhile, the rest of Europe gets Villa v Chelsea - including Spain, who've just got their 3pms back after a couple of month's absence due to piracy concerns.

Even (ironically) Sunderland's game looks better than this week's choice - away to Swansea.

Selhurst · 02-02-2015 01:09PM

can't keep everyone happy ;-).

radiowaves · 02-02-2015 01:17PM

Selhurst wrote: »

can't keep everyone happy ;-).

Well better to keep a majority rather than tiny minority happy surely? Especially when trying to attract subscribers.

Delighted for you that you're getting to see your game though

(I'm not complaining either - the days when I relied on UK/Irish TV for football are long gone)

MisterAnarchy · 02-02-2015 02:40PM

radiowaves wrote: »

Again, assuming you mean the Premier League, who else would have placed the restriction on them

EDIT - I think the acronym stands for English Premier League, am I right? I've never got this. People don't say Spanish La Liga or German Bundesliga. Why the need to say English Premier League? The name of the competition is the Barclays Premier League and the people who run it are The Premier League.

If you are going to become pedantic then the "Premier League" is widely regarded as the "English Premier League" outside of England ,its the most commonly used term to describe it so as to differentiate it from other Premier leagues in other countries .

La Liga's official title is the Primera División of the Liga Nacional de Fútbol Profesional (LFP),and officially named for sponsorship reasons Liga BBVA.
How often do you hear someone mention the BBVA in relation to La Liga ?

The German top league is officially the Fußball-Bundesliga ,but more commonly known as the German Bundesliga .

EPL is the most logical description for the league , I dont see why a sponsor like Barclays needs to be referenced at all ,in fact its something that irritates me.
Its the RBS 6 Nations ,it was the Guinness All Ireland Championship until recently,but these competitions rarely include the sponsors name in discussion.
Sponsors change but the competition stays the same.

radiowaves · 02-02-2015 02:56PM

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

If you are going to become pedantic then the "Premier League" is widely regarded as the "English Premier League" outside of England ,its the most commonly used term to describe it so as to differentiate it from other Premier leagues in other countries .

La Liga's official title is the Primera División of the Liga Nacional de Fútbol Profesional (LFP),and officially named for sponsorship reasons Liga BBVA.
How often do you hear someone mention the BBVA in relation to La Liga ?

The German top league is officially the Fußball-Bundesliga ,but more commonly known as the German Bundesliga .

EPL is the most logical description for the league , I dont see why a sponsor like Barclays needs to be referenced at all ,in fact its something that irritates me.
Its the RBS 6 Nations ,it was the Guinness All Ireland Championship until recently,but these competitions rarely include the sponsors name in discussion.
Sponsors change but the competition stays the same.

Hmmm....

I would argue it is most widely known as the Premier League

All over the globe it is what TV schedulers call it (as evidenced in the example given) and how they refer to it in their programming.

I have never heard anybody in conversation call it the "English Premier League".

As regards the sponsor I simply gave the competitions official title and whilst Premier League is by far how it's most widely referenced I have heard the official title used many times (but never English Premier League).

It seems to be solely an internet thing to use the acronym EPL.

One thing's for sure - this thread is about the Premier League and being referenced as that could not have caused anybody to confuse it with any other competition.

Selhurst · 02-02-2015 05:32PM

Hello Raidiowaves
best of luck to whatever team you support
hope you see pently of matches.

Douglas Eegit · 02-02-2015 06:15PM

Next couple of weeks fixtures coming up..

Feb 07 Leicester v Crystal Palace 15.00 Setanta 1
Feb 21 Swansea v Man United 15.00 Setanta 1
Feb 28 Man United v Sunderland 15.00 Setanta 1
Mar 14 Arsenal v West Ham 15.00 Setanta 1
Mar 21 Tottenham v Leicester 15.00 Setanta 1

Some decent fixtures there tbh...

irishfeen · 02-02-2015 06:42PM

Douglas Eegit wrote: »

Next couple of weeks fixtures coming up..

Feb 07 Leicester v Crystal Palace 15.00 Setanta 1
Feb 21 Swansea v Man United 15.00 Setanta 1
Feb 28 Man United v Sunderland 15.00 Setanta 1
Mar 14 Arsenal v West Ham 15.00 Setanta 1
Mar 21 Tottenham v Leicester 15.00 Setanta 1

Some decent fixtures there tbh...

Arsenal v West Ham is by far the biggest but if your not a United fan (thankfully I am) then its fairly bad though.

lertsnim · 02-02-2015 08:46PM

I think for the neutral they will get value from Swansea v United and Arsenal v West Ham

batistuta9 · 02-02-2015 11:28PM

irishfeen wrote: »

Douglas Eegit wrote: »

Next couple of weeks fixtures coming up..

Feb 07 Leicester v Crystal Palace 15.00 Setanta 1
Feb 21 Swansea v Man United 15.00 Setanta 1
Feb 28 Man United v Sunderland 15.00 Setanta 1
Mar 14 Arsenal v West Ham 15.00 Setanta 1
Mar 21 Tottenham v Leicester 15.00 Setanta 1

Some decent fixtures there tbh...

Arsenal v West Ham is by far the biggest but if your not a United fan (thankfully I am) then its fairly bad though.

apart from feb 7th & maybe mar 21st (nucf vs arsenal) they're fixtures you'd expect setanta to pick anyway if there was no restriction

irishfeen · 02-02-2015 11:49PM

Setanta fixtures to end of March [Matches Available Without Quotas]

Leicester v Everton [Spurs V West Ham]
Chelsea v Leicester
Man City v Stoke
Southampton v Newcastle [Chelsea v Swansea]
Aston Villa v Arsenal
Man United v West Ham
Liverpool v West Brom
Southampton v Sunderland [Arsenal v Hull or Crystal Palace v Chelsea]
West Brom v Crystal Palace [Liverpool v Hull or Sunderland v Arsenal]
Stoke v West Ham [Arsenal v Burney or Chelsea v QPR]
Man United v Crystal Palace
Chelsea v West Brom
Liverpool v Stoke
Stoke City v Arsenal
Burnley v Southampton [Chelsea v Hull or Leicester v Man City]
Aston Villa v Manchester United
Everton v Manchester City
Spurs v Sunderland [Aston Villa v Liverpool or QPR v Man Utd or Swansea v Chelsea]
Sunderlan v Burnley [Liverpool v West Ham or Man Utd v Leicester]
Leicester v Crystal Palace [Aston Villa v Chelsea or Man City v Hull]
Swansea v Man United
Man United v Sunderland
Arsenal v West Ham
Tottenham v Leicester [Newcastle v Arsenal]

Setanta with Quotas
United - 5
Liverpool - 2
Arsenal - 3
Man City - 2
Chelsea - 2

.. Realistically only 14/23 games are probably breaking even/making a profit with enforced quotas. I know the relationship with BT and the upcoming CL will help Setanta greatly but you really would expect Setanta to bid much lower the next time the Irish rights come up for tender.

Just look at the games say a FTA broadcaster/Setanta without quotas could broadcast - 22/23 very solid games/profit generating games from United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool & City... the Premier League clamping down on Setanta has been devastating in terms of quality high profile games at 3pm.

You really would have to wonder why UTV, RTÉ, TV3 or TG4 don't go very hard for these rights - absolutely guaranteed viewers.

Imagine if a FTA Irish broadcaster had this sequence of fixtures @3pm - much better then some packages in the UK on BT/sky from an Irish perspective

Spurs V West Ham
Chelsea v Leicester
Man City v Stoke
Chelsea v Swansea
Aston Villa v Arsenal
Man United v West Ham
Liverpool v West Brom
Arsenal v Hull
Liverpool v Hull
Chelsea v QPR
Man United v Crystal Palace
Chelsea v West Brom
Liverpool v Stoke
Stoke City v Arsenal
Leicester v Man City
Aston Villa v Manchester United
Everton v Manchester City
QPR v Man Utd
Liverpool v West Ham
Aston Villa v Chelsea
Swansea v Man United
Man United v Sunderland
Arsenal v West Ham
Newcastle v Arsenal

United - 6
Arsenal - 5
Chelsea - 5
Liverpool - 4
City 3

radiowaves · 03-02-2015 12:53AM

irishfeen wrote: »

Setanta fixtures to end of March

Great post mate, thanks for taking the time to compose it.

Taking yet another angle, up to the end of March here's the amount of times each of the 20 teams will have appeared:-

Arsenal 3

Aston Villa 2

Burnley 2

Chelsea 2

Crystal Palace 3

Everton 2

Hull City 0

Leicester 4

Liverpool 2

Manchester City 2

Manchester United 5

Newcastle 1

QPR 0

Southampton 3

Stoke 4

Sunderland 5

Swansea 1

Tottenham 2

West Brom 2

West Ham 3

Interestingly, Hull City & QPR have still to be shown (Swansea too but they are scheduled for Feb 21st). Both are available this weekend yet Setanta have gone for Leicester (4 appearances by end of March) v Palace (3 appearances).
This would certainly suggest they are not working to minimum quotas or the more specific suggestion that each team must be shown at least twice.

Manchester United will have been available at 3pm 8 times by the end of March, so considering the restrictions Setanta will have done ok.
On each of the 3 times Setanta have failed to show United by a quirk of fate Liverpool were also available. However Setanta only managed to show Liverpool on one of those occasions, thereby further highlighting the situation they are now in.

The amount of times Sunderland, Leicester & Stoke will have appeared by end of March when compared to Liverpool is noteworthy.

irishfeen · 03-02-2015 01:02AM

That should fix it radiowaves

irishfeen · 03-02-2015 01:05AM

radiowaves wrote: »

Great post mate, thanks for taking the time to compose it.

Taking yet another angle, up to the end of March here's the amount of times each of the 20 teams will have appeared:-

Arsenal 3

Aston Villa 2

Burnley 2

Chelsea 2

Crystal Palace 3

Everton 2

Hull City 0

Leicester 4

Liverpool 2

Manchester City 2

Manchester United 5

Newcastle 1

QPR 0

Southampton 3

Stoke 4

Sunderland 5

Swansea 1

Tottenham 2

West Brom 2

West Ham 3

Interestingly, Hull City & QPR have still to be shown (Swansea too but they are scheduled for Feb 21st). Both are available this weekend yet Setanta have gone for Leicester (4 appearances by end of March) v Palace (3 appearances).
This would certainly suggest they are not working to minimum quotas or the more specific suggestion that each time must be shown at least twice.

Manchester United will have been available at 3pm 8 times by the end of March, so considering the restrictions Setanta will have done ok.
On each of the 3 times Setanta have failed to show United by a quirk of fate Liverpool were also available. However Setanta only managed to show Liverpool on one of those occasions, thereby further highlighting the situation they are now in.

The amount of times Sunderland, Leicester & Stoke will have appeared by end of March when compared to Liverpool is noteworthy.

I wonder what the actual restrictions are on Setanta - are we sure the PL would drop the quotas if say UTVI won the rights? .. one thing for sure is foreign broadcasters don't seem to be subject to such tight controls - they seem to be able to pick whatever 3pm game they want... although saying that United were not shown in Spain, Germany or France over the last two weeks either although the games they broadcast were Chelsea and Liverpool.

radiowaves · 03-02-2015 01:26AM

irishfeen wrote: »

I wonder what the actual restrictions are on Setanta - are we sure the PL would drop the quotas if say UTVI won the rights?

Yes, globally no other broadcaster holding 3pm rights in isolation are restricted in any way. Some even broadcast FTA!

Restrictions on Setanta were only introduced this season - the second year of the current broadcast contract.

Up until this season no restrictions had been imposed on Irish 3pm rightsholders (apart from RTÉ needing to show games on delay because Sky held rights to live games exclusively).

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the restrictions have been enforced because, by selling a single subscription, Setanta and BT were competing unfairly with Sky in Ireland.
Sky, of course, are themselves operating to quotas, not to mention the vast sums they paid for their rights. Those rights will have been devalued slightly thanks to BT joining forces with Setanta.

BT and Setanta's rights in isolation have a certain market value. But operating together the value shoots up (highlighted by your own post which shows that a big team can be shown every week at 3pm). Setanta were marketing their "Sports Pack" by highlighting the amount of times they could show the top teams.

Take this season as an example. There is a realistic possibility that another couple of Manchester United fixtures will be available at 3pm. That would make ten altogether. Add that to the amount of times BT can show Manchester United (maximum 7) and compare it to the maximum Sky can show Manchester United and you can see why the Premier League have enforced restrictions on Setanta's 3pm rights.

There would be no necessity to impose restrictions on any other broadcaster holding rights to 3pm games (with the obvious exception of Sky Sports),

MisterAnarchy · 03-02-2015 01:35AM

irishfeen wrote: »

one thing for sure is foreign broadcasters don't seem to be subject to such tight controls - they seem to be able to pick whatever 3pm game they want... although saying that United were not shown in Spain, Germany or France over the last two weeks either although the games they broadcast were Chelsea and Liverpool.

One thing that you are forgetting is that Setanta have english audio ,which has been removed on all of the European broadcasters ,this is likely a factor in their reduced match selection too.

radiowaves · 03-02-2015 01:42AM

irishfeen wrote: »

.. one thing for sure is foreign broadcasters don't seem to be subject to such tight controls - they seem to be able to pick whatever 3pm game they want... although saying that United were not shown in Spain, Germany or France over the last two weeks either although the games they broadcast were Chelsea and Liverpool.

Responding now to your edit.

Outside Europe on both weekends Manchester United were first pick for every broadcaster without fail. What I mean is they were on the main channel even though outside Europe they show all the 3pms. Inside Europe two weeks ago United were shown in Norway, The Netherlands and one or two other countries. Everyone else went with Swansea v Chelsea.

Last weekend, it was a more even split between Manchester United and Liverpool.

Most of the foreign broadcasters, including those you specifically mentioned, have bought the rights to all 380 fixtures. However, in Europe, they are restricted to just one 3pm live game due to piracy concerns. No other restrictions apply.

United were not shown in Spain. You're right about that. However, no other team was shown in Spain either at 3pm. Canal+ have not shown any 3pms since November. The Premier League stopped their broadcasts due to piracy. Their 3pms return this weekend (with Villa v Chelsea, the game being universally shown except in Ireland!).

Sky Sport Deutschland only show a 3pm Premier League game when there is no Bundesliga.

France shunted their coverage onto a secondary channel as they went big on the ACoN.

Across the globe there are broadcasters who hold rights to the 3pm games in isolation. You are right to say that they, just like the situation here up until this season, face no restrictions whatsoever.

radiowaves · 03-02-2015 01:46AM

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

One thing that you are forgetting is that Setanta have english audio ,which has been removed on all of the European broadcasters ,this is likely a factor in their reduced match selection too.

The official line is that continental European Broadcasters have been forced to limit audio broadcasts to their country's official or main spoken language.

In Setanta's case that is, of course, English.

It is safe to say that the fact that Setanta broadcast commentary in the main language of the country they are based in has nothing to do with the restrictions that have been imposed on them.

ShakerMaker91 · 03-02-2015 01:49AM

I have the Setanta pack and I wouldn't be too fussed as to what game is being shown at 3 as BT usually have a decent one with the early kick off so it kind of balances itself out you could say

Mallagio · 03-02-2015 11:26AM

radiowaves wrote: »

The official line is that continental European Broadcasters have been forced to limit audio broadcasts to their country's official or main spoken language.

In Setanta's case that is, of course, English.

It is safe to say that the fact that Setanta broadcast commentary in the main language of the country they are based in has nothing to do with the restrictions that have been imposed on them.

I wonder if Sky got into a little huff over the quality of matches that Setanta were showing in regards to one of the "top 6" being shown every Saturday?

I'd say they did and the F.A were forced.

Pure speculation of course.

irishfeen · 03-02-2015 12:16PM

ShakerMaker91 wrote: »

I have the Setanta pack and I wouldn't be too fussed as to what game is being shown at 3 as BT usually have a decent one with the early kick off so it kind of balances itself out you could say

But that's exactly the point - why would setanta pay big money again for substandard rights - rights for which at most half of them would be moneymaking/economically viable... Would they be better buying other rights with the money? At the moment - probably yes.

radiowaves · 03-02-2015 12:17PM

Mallagio wrote: »

I wonder if Sky got into a little huff over the quality of matches that Setanta were showing in regards to one of the "top 6" being shown every Saturday?

I'd say they did and the F.A were forced.

Pure speculation of course.

Where are you getting that from? Sky hold a number of packages. They have absolutely no arbitration over the games available and shown in the packages held by other rightsholders (apart from the well documented first choice on when to exercise their first picks).

The PL are not in the business of devaluing the quality of a package held by one rightsholder because the rightsholder of other packs are "in a huff" as you put it.

Why all the conspiracy theory nonsense anyway?

It's been said often enough but, again, the restrictions were only introduced this season. So, you're suggesting that all of a sudden Sky are in a huff and all of a sudden the Premier League (not the FA btw) have acted on that huff?

Sometimes what's obvious is exactly the right answer. The landscape surrounding the broadcasting of 3pms changed at the start of this contract.

Setanta and BT selling separate subscriptions based on their individual packs and what they'd paid for is what the two broadcasters agreed to with the Premier League. The packs were sold to two totally separate broadcasters.

However, Setanta PLUS BT selling their individual packs under one subscription enhances the value of the packs they each paid for above and beyond what they were worth individually and, in turn, seriously affects the perceived quality of the package of rights held by the other rightsholder in Ireland.

By the way, maybe you're not aware of this but Sky were also free to bid for the package of 3pms to be shown in Ireland. They obviously felt the package was not worth considering so, no, they won't have been annoyed about the quality of games being shown at 3pm - they are well aware of what's usually left over (based on the quotas both they and BT are working under).
I'm sure they get annoyed that quotas restrict them from showing more games with the top teams but, having said that, Sky have proven themselves quite adept at spreading the matches featuring all 20 teams as evenly as they can - which in turn attracts maximum subscriptions.

Now, if I were "Sky" I certainly would've got seriously angry that BT and Setanta had aligned in Ireland.

We are talking many millions of pounds investment here. Packages are sold based on quality. Sky paid a premium for their packs - it is grossly unfair on them that their two competitors in Ireland (one of whom bought the weakest pack) hooked up together.

What is interesting is that the BT/Setanta situation lasted a full season. My guess is that Sky, noticing a drop in commercial subscriptions, made representations to the Premier League - as is their right - and the PL took a closer look at the situation.

irishfeen · 03-02-2015 12:28PM

Of course the fact that all 380 games are not available for broadcast in Ireland is absolutely ridiculous - we are the most restricted country outside the UK in terms of PL games.

Of course this is sky's decision to duplicate rights simply in a gentlemans agreement with the PL .. An agreement for me which could very well contravene EU law if it was tested in court.

radiowaves · 03-02-2015 12:53PM

irishfeen wrote: »

Of course the fact that all 380 games are not available for broadcast in Ireland is absolutely ridiculous - we are the most restricted country outside the UK in terms of PL games.

Of course this is sky's decision to duplicate rights simply in a gentlemans agreement with the PL .. An agreement for me which could very well contravene EU law if it was tested in court.

Well the situation in European countries is similar to here.

As mentioned other European countries can only show one 3pm live due to piracy concerns. For those countries the rights to the 380 entitles them to show all the UKTV games and one 3pm live and all the remaining weekend games delayed either in full or in highlights form - although Ireland doesn't get the non-broadcast games in full it comes close thanks to the three rightsholders.
It should be noted that some countries show more than one 3pm but the extra games are restriced to cable only distribution.

Where European countries are undoubtedly better off is that there are no restrictions on midweek and Bank Holiday fixtures, so broadcasters can show every game. In reality though most show no more than two.

Outside the EU all 380 games are available for live broadcast and, yes, that is grossly unfair on Ireland (as it is on other European countries).

It is also worth pointing out that Sky have nothing to do with the way rights are sold in this country. They have absolutely no say in the matter - the way rights are sold is the Premier League's decision and theirs alone.

The Premier League will have obviously decided, based on the broadcast landscape in Ireland, that in order to maximise revenue that a duplication of the situation in the UK makes sense. That way the two (or more next time possibly?) UK TV rightsholders are given the option to bid for the same games in Ireland. It is worth noting that no Irish broadcasters could match what the UK channels are prepared to pay so making all 380 available would be commercial suicide for the Premier League. Don't forget that any broadcaster was free to bid for the individual packages of games that were available - it is possible that some sort of gentleman's agreement occured there but one way or another I could only see the UK channels being able to afford to show those games here.

A similar situation happens in Germany/Austria.

radiowaves · 03-02-2015 01:00PM

irishfeen wrote: »

They are taking desperate abuse on Twitter .. They really should go to the Premier League and say they will pull out unless the quotas end... At this stage the 3pm games are adding very little to the "Setanta Pack"

As they admitted to working under restrictions on their Twitter feed did anybody think to ask what the actual restrictions are?

irishfeen · 03-02-2015 07:15PM

radiowaves wrote: »

Well the situation in European countries is similar to here.

As mentioned other European countries can only show one 3pm live due to piracy concerns. For those countries the rights to the 380 entitles them to show all the UKTV games and one 3pm live and all the remaining weekend games delayed either in full or in highlights form - although Ireland doesn't get the non-broadcast games in full it comes close thanks to the three rightsholders.
It should be noted that some countries show more than one 3pm but the extra games are restriced to cable only distribution.

Where European countries are undoubtedly better off is that there are no restrictions on midweek and Bank Holiday fixtures, so broadcasters can show every game. In reality though most show no more than two.

Outside the EU all 380 games are available for live broadcast and, yes, that is grossly unfair on Ireland (as it is on other European countries).

It is also worth pointing out that Sky have nothing to do with the way rights are sold in this country. They have absolutely no say in the matter - the way rights are sold is the Premier League's decision and theirs alone.

The Premier League will have obviously decided, based on the broadcast landscape in Ireland, that in order to maximise revenue that a duplication of the situation in the UK makes sense. That way the two (or more next time possibly?) UK TV rightsholders are given the option to bid for the same games in Ireland. It is worth noting that no Irish broadcasters could match what the UK channels are prepared to pay so making all 380 available would be commercial suicide for the Premier League. Don't forget that any broadcaster was free to bid for the individual packages of games that were available - it is possible that some sort of gentleman's agreement occured there but one way or another I could only see the UK channels being able to afford to show those games here.

A similar situation happens in Germany/Austria.

Yep I know of the 1 game restriction on European broadcasters at 3pm but they can pick any game as far as im aware. I was more referring to other games outside 3pm for which all are broadcast in Europe and across the world .

Setanta 3pm games - terrible matches ??

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