Stephen Fry on confronting god after death

RobertKK · 02-02-2015 05:50PM

K4t wrote: »

Without simply choosing the bits which both people of faith and those not of faith would agree on was my point. You're so predictable. You simply want to win, like this all a big game to you.

No, but if you want to make that accusation, it could also apply to you.
There are no winners, just opinions which no one will care about or simply don't care about as it is.

K4t · 02-02-2015 05:58PM

RobertKK wrote: »

No, but if you want to make that accusation, it could also apply to you.
There are no winners, just opinions which no one will care about or simply don't care about as it is.

Not when many people's opinions come directly from a book written thousands of years ago which teaches some pretty inhumane beliefs. People are always going to take the bad stuff (as well as the good stuff) literally. And therein lies the problem. The good stuff can exist without religion. It does.

Anyway, you've moved the argument on from my original point which still stands, which is that scientists of faith give religious extremists (who would take even the bad stuff written in the bible or the koran as being correct) intellectual cover; that it's fine to believe in science and rationality as well as faith (even the faith which teaches bad things if that is the faith you want to adhere by).

mikom · 02-02-2015 06:01PM

I have a Star Wars annual from 1980.
I can't wait to meet Darth Vader when I die, so that I can give that maniac a piece of my mind......

RobertKK · 02-02-2015 06:04PM

K4t wrote: »

Not when many people's opinions come directly from a book written thousands of years ago which teaches some pretty inhumane beliefs. People are always going to take the bad stuff (as well as the good stuff) literally. And therein lies the problem. The good stuff can exist without religion. It does.

Anyway, you've moved the argument on from my original point which still stands, which is that scientists of faith give religious extremists (who would take even the bad stuff written in the bible or the koran as being correct) intellectual cover; that it's fine to believe in science and rationality as well as faith (even the faith which teaches bad things if that is the faith you want to adhere by).

..and I still disagree with your original point.
See, no winners.

seamus · 02-02-2015 06:11PM

RobertKK wrote: »

I take 'thou shalt not kill' literally, should our laws change so they don't copy the bible.

That's not what he said. He simply said that laws should not exist simply because some religious book says they should.

RobertKK · 02-02-2015 06:15PM

seamus wrote: »

That's not what he said. He simply said that laws should not exist simply because some religious book says they should.

Anyone who takes what is said in the Bible or the Koran literally, and furthermore attempts to influence law or public policy based on either, is stupid

I disagree.

K4t · 02-02-2015 06:16PM

RobertKK wrote: »

I disagree.

Not just the good bits. You forget my edit which I thought would have been implied.

Which is my whole point really, an educated scientist can differentiate between the good and the bad of the bible and so he appears as enlightened, but he gives cover and perpetuates the opportunity for the uneducated and the unenlightened to take literally the bad. And they are the dangerous ones as they DO attempt to garner followers and influence policy.

RobertKK · 02-02-2015 06:21PM

K4t wrote: »

Not just the good bits. You forget my edit which I thought would have been implied.

Which is my whole point really, an educated scientist can differentiate between the good and the bad of the bible and so he appears as enlightened, but he gives cover and perpetuates the opportunity for the uneducated and the unenlightened to take literally the bad. And they are the dangerous ones as they DO attempt to garner followers and influence policy.

Well my post was before/during your edit and that is what was being replied to.

The problems arise from society far more than from any book.

K4t · 02-02-2015 06:31PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Well my post was before/during your edit and that is what was being replied to.

The problems arise from society far more than from any book.

Religion doesn't help. It never has. All the good parts humanity would already know, and all the bad parts (of which there are many), have caused pain and misery for millions for years. And continues to do so. Thankfully more people think like me than yourself and hopefully soon you will be free to hold your beliefs in a minority.

Bobking · 02-02-2015 06:36PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Well my post was before/during your edit and that is what was being replied to.

The problems arise from society far more than from any book.

Are you saying holy books should be used to make laws for society?
Which ones? Your religion or mine?

You're conversing with a troll, I'm sure enough, not even gonna taste the bait.

RobertKK · 02-02-2015 06:45PM

K4t wrote: »

Religion doesn't help. It never has. All the good parts humanity would already know, and all the bad parts (of which there are many), have caused pain and misery for millions for years. And continues to do so. Thankfully more people think like me than yourself and hopefully soon you will be free to hold your beliefs in a minority.

Hmmm, basic mathematics would show a problem within your minority talk.

RobertKK · 02-02-2015 06:51PM

Bobking wrote: »

Are you saying holy books should be used to make laws for society?
Which ones? Your religion or mine?

You're conversing with a troll, I'm sure enough, not even gonna taste the bait.

No, I am saying things are in law that are in the bible. It was said having things from the bible or Koran in law was stupid, but there are things in holy books that most people would agree with, like the thou shalt not kill.
But no one wants to live in a theocracy, but also a lot don't want to live in a society where their beliefs or lack of are ignored.

robinph · 02-02-2015 06:54PM

RobertKK wrote: »

No, I am saying things are in law that are in the bible. It was said having things from the bible or Koran in law was stupid, but there are things in holy books that most people would agree with, like the thou shalt not kill.
But no one wants to live in a theocracy, but also a lot don't want to live in a society where their beliefs or lack of are ignored.

That is not "from" the bible, it is merely also stated in the bible.

Bobking · 02-02-2015 07:00PM

RobertKK wrote: »

No, I am saying things are in law that are in the bible. It was said having things from the bible or Koran in law was stupid, but there are things in holy books that most people would agree with, like the thou shalt not kill.
But no one wants to live in a theocracy, but also a lot don't want to live in a society where their beliefs or lack of are ignored.

You seem to make sense but sure, it is stupid to have laws or keep laws because they are from the bible.
If you can only justify a law by saying that it's in the bible then that law is stupid.
I can think of a few reasons why killing should be illegal without referencing god.
I also figured out that stealing or having my sweets stolen was undesirable before I heard thou shalt not steal, at about 6.

If you're trolling, well done.
If not, try harder.
I'm out.

floggg · 02-02-2015 07:24PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

This seems a common problem. Some people can't even comprehend that other people don't believe their god exists. Or answering a hypothetical question means that you are saying you agree the hypothetical is a known fact.

It is kind of warped that some people seem to have a harder time understanding how the world would work without any all powerful mythical being than they do understanding how it's meant to work with one.

To me, understanding how there is an omnipresent omnipotent God who allows bad things to happen is way more baffling than the idea that bad things happen because of natural forces and/or human nature.

Ghost Buster · 02-02-2015 07:41PM

THIS should have been the end music to that programme.

floggg · 02-02-2015 07:54PM

RobertKK wrote: »

I take 'thou shalt not kill' literally, should our laws change so they don't copy the bible.

Why do you need the bible to tell you not to kill?

Surely you should know that it is wrong regardless of your religious beliefs.

In any event, the bible can hardly claim copyright on "don't kill people."

Apart from knicking it from the Jews, most other religions and cultures have hit upon the same idea.

Defender OF Faith · 02-02-2015 07:58PM

floggg wrote: »

To me, understanding how there is an omnipresent omnipotent God who allows bad things to happen is way more baffling than the idea that bad things happen because of natural forces and/or human nature.

Why do you try and bother to understand when you dont even believe in a Creator and a God to begin with?

floggg · 02-02-2015 08:09PM

K4t wrote: »

Religion doesn't help. It never has. All the good parts humanity would already know, and all the bad parts (of which there are many), have caused pain and misery for millions for years. And continues to do so. Thankfully more people think like me than yourself and hopefully soon you will be free to hold your beliefs in a minority.

Religion isn't needed for us to offer for great evil to each other unfortunately. Man has always been, and likely will be prone to evil.

The problem with religion is that it cam legitimise and validate evil impulses, and provide us with justification for giving in to them.

That's not exclusive to religion mind, and various other concepts and ideologies have had the same effect in the past - including patriotism, politics ethnicity etc.

Religion cam however he the most dangerous, simply because it adds a false veneer of morality and virtue to evil acts.

Ghost Buster · 02-02-2015 08:09PM

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Why do you try and bother to understand when you dont even believe in a Creator and a God to begin with?

Some people be crazy with the thinking!

floggg · 02-02-2015 08:11PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Hmmm, basic mathematics would show a problem within your minority talk.

Well if he's talking on terms of the millions of years religion has been causing harm(?!) "soon" is a relative term.

floggg · 02-02-2015 08:21PM

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Why do you try and bother to understand when you dont even believe in a Creator and a God to begin with?

Because unlike some, I don't just accept whatever beliefs I am told to or was raised with.

I was raised in a Catholic household, but came to my conclusions regarding the non-existence of any gods based on consideration of all relevant evidence, arguments and sources.

I would be a fool to make up my mind before considering all the arguments, now wouldn't I.

K4t · 02-02-2015 08:24PM

floggg wrote: »

Religion isn't needed for us to offer for great evil to each other unfortunately. Man has always been, and likely will be prone to evil.

The problem with religion is that it cam legitimise and validate evil impulses, and provide us with justification for giving in to them.

That's not exclusive to religion mind, and various other concepts and ideologies have had the same effect in the past - including patriotism, politics ethnicity etc.

Religion cam however he the most dangerous, simply because it adds a false veneer of morality and virtue to evil acts.

That is all true but whenever society has an opportunity to progress and move forward, the opposition is most of the time stood firmly behind religious beliefs. You only have to look at Iona as a recent example of this in Ireland. Religious defenders will say, oh look at all the scientists and mathematicians of faith but we all know they are not the majority and that even their beliefs on other things can be influenced by their religious beliefs. Of course without religion there would still be evil, nobody is denying that, it's just sad when you think how further forward and advanced we could be were it not for religion. And I mean that in relation to the benefit of all people of faith and all those not of faith, not just the religious few who can compartmentalize.

Ave Sodalis · 02-02-2015 08:28PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1BzP1wr234

Possibly a bit NSFW but this is basically a summary of what Mr Fry was saying

Donkey Oaty · 02-02-2015 08:34PM

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Why do you try and bother to understand when you dont even believe in a Creator and a God to begin with?

Where do you stand on the existence of Elves?

I don't mean djinns - I am specifically referring to Icelandic Elves.

Grayson · 02-02-2015 08:57PM

RobertKK wrote: »

I take 'thou shalt not kill' literally, should our laws change so they don't copy the bible.

Thou shalt not murder you mean. That's what the bible said. The difference is that murder is non state sanctioned killing. And it also meant that people should not kill within their own tribe. Outside the tribe was fine.

Defender OF Faith · 02-02-2015 09:21PM

floggg wrote: »

Because unlike some, I don't just accept whatever beliefs I am told to or was raised with.

I was raised in a Catholic household, but came to my conclusions regarding the non-existence of any gods based on consideration of all relevant evidence, arguments and sources.

I would be a fool to make up my mind before considering all the arguments, now wouldn't I.

Great, that's really good and I applaud you for this as really the majority of people who hold a religious belief hold such a belief because of a blind following to what they were raised with, he's a Christian because his parents are, he's a Muslim because his parents are, but you decided to think for yourself which is what am applauding here.

But it's useless to question whether God is Evil because Evil exist in the world when you don't believe in a God to begin, for an Atheist with a materialistic outlook the suffering and evil is caused by Humans themselves and the process of evolution and natural selection to deem those best capable of surviving in the harshest of conditions to spread their genes. We have enough resources in this planet to feed two extra planet unfortunately these resources and being hoarded not by God but those among us belonging to the same race as us. There are people who lives lavishly with money houses and cars while people are dying in Africa these people play a role in the suffering on earth and to blame all this on a God which you dont even believe in is extremely naive and complete silliness.

As this argument is not even a refutation or a contention with regard to God existence but rather it questions the nature of God, and a question regarding a Nature of God when you dont even believe in a God does not make sense to me.

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Where do you stand on the existence of Elves?

I don't mean djinns - I am specifically referring to Icelandic Elves.

I understand that your trying to do a correlation between understanding God and understanding Elves so forgive me if I misunderstood as this is a faulty comparison between completely unrelated subjects.
Secondly God cannot further be compared with Elves as God is a basic cross cultural belief and a belief in a God is not culturally bond. Believing in Icelandic Elves means I would need to have been brought up in a culture where am taught about such a thing, the idea of God however, the basic underlying idea of a creator and a supernatural cause for the universe is cross cultural. It's not subject on culture but transcend it, just like the belief in causality and the existence of other minds.

Maximus Alexander · 02-02-2015 09:35PM

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

As this argument is not even a refutation or a contention with regard to God existence but rather it questions the nature of God, and a question regarding a Nature of God when you dont even believe in a God does not make sense to me.

It's absolutely a refutation of God.

If a God is omnipotent and loving, but the world is full of suffering, then that God can't exist.

saywhatyousee · 02-02-2015 09:49PM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

It's absolutely a refutation of God.

If a God is omnipotent and loving, but the world is full of suffering, then that God can't exist.

That's the new testament god t he old testament one was a bit more hardcore

Maximus Alexander · 02-02-2015 09:56PM

saywhatyousee wrote: »

That's the new testament god t he old testament one was a bit more hardcore

Maybe the Jews are on to something then.

Stephen Fry on confronting god after death

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