Men must prove a woman said 'Yes' under tough new rape rules in the UK

RobYourBuilder · 29-01-2015 12:37AM #1

Men accused of date rape will need to convince police that a woman consented to sex as part of a major change in the way sex offences are investigated.

The Director of Public Prosecutions said it was time for the legal system to move beyond the concept of “no means no” to recognise situations where women may have been unable to give consent.

Alison Saunders said rape victims should no longer be “blamed” by society if they are too drunk to consent to sex, or if they simply freeze and say nothing because they are terrified of their attacker.

Instead, police and prosecutors must now put a greater onus on rape suspects to demonstrate how the complainant had consented “with full capacity and freedom to do so”.

Campaigners described the move as “a huge step forward” in ensuring fewer rapists escape justice.

The burden of prove should always rest with the prosecution, not the accused: that's a fundamental part of the legal system.

“Consent to sexual activity is not a grey area - in law it is clearly defined and must be given fully and freely.

“It is not a crime to drink, but it is a crime for a rapist to target someone who is no longer capable of consenting to sex though drink.

“These tools take us well beyond the old saying 'no means no' - it is now well established that many rape victims freeze rather than fight as a protective and coping mechanism.

“We want police and prosecutors to make sure they ask in every case where consent is the issue - how did the suspect know the complainant was saying yes and doing so freely and knowingly?”

"Here, could you stop that for a minute and fetch a pen. Just need you to fill out some forms before we proceed."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11375667/Men-must-prove-a-woman-said-Yes-under-tough-new-rape-rules.html

Aphex · 29-01-2015 12:45AM

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

The burden of prove should always rest with the prosecution, not the accused: that's a fundamental part of the legal system.

"Here, could you stop that for a minute and fetch a pen. Just need you to fill out some forms before we proceed."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11375667/Men-must-prove-a-woman-said-Yes-under-tough-new-rape-rules.html

I just upload all my encounters to xhamster. Saves all that "taken advantage of" hassle.

pablomakaveli · 29-01-2015 12:47AM

Sounds like guilty till proven innocent.

29-01-2015 12:48AM

Will woman have to do the same ?

conorh91 · 29-01-2015 12:54AM

Most misleading headline in ages.

No new legislation is planned. The DPP for England and Wales is simply circulating new guidance for prosecutors, asking these lawyers to try to prove lack of consent in a more rigorous way.

Neither the English nor Irish DPP has the authority to enact new laws or to flip the burden of proof to an accused person. The golden thread remains intact: the Prosecution must prove everything, the Defence need prove nothing.

It's just the Telegraph exaggerating its stories to give its readers the only bit of excitement many of them ever get.

TL;DR: no changes to the law, no changes to the presumption of innocence, just the DPP asking lawyers to work harder to prove that the alleged victim did not consent.

josip · 29-01-2015 12:56AM

conorh91 wrote: »

Most misleading headline in ages.

No new legislation is planned. The DPP for England and Wales is simply circulating new guidance for prosecutors, asking these lawyers to try to prove lack of consent in a more rigorous way.

Neither the English nor Irish DPP has the authority to enact new laws or to flip the burden of proof to an accused person. The golden thread remains intact: the Prosecution must prove everything, the Defence need prove nothing.

It's just the Telegraph exaggerating its stories to give its readers the only bit of excitement many of them ever get.

TL;DR: no changes to the law, no changes to the presumption of innocence, just the DPP asking lawyers to work harder to prove that the alleged victim did not consent.

That's a thread stopper

Harry Palmr · 29-01-2015 12:57AM

Well this is why we have camera phones. "Okay love - face me and speak clearly!"

The_Valeyard · 29-01-2015 09:34AM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Well this is why we have camera phones. "Okay love - face me and speak clearly!"

While sitting on a black leather sofa........

smoking_kills · 29-01-2015 09:36AM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

While sitting on a black leather sofa........

Its rude to talk with your mouth full..............

AudreyHepburn · 29-01-2015 09:57AM

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

The burden of prove should always rest with the prosecution, not the accused: that's a fundamental part of the legal system.

"Here, could you stop that for a minute and fetch a pen. Just need you to fill out some forms before we proceed."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11375667/Men-must-prove-a-woman-said-Yes-under-tough-new-rape-rules.html

Whether actual legislation or simple guidelines I don't like the sound of this.

What happened to Innocent Until Proven Guilty?

MrPudding · 29-01-2015 10:04AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Whether actual legislation or simple guidelines I don't like the sound of this.

What happened to Innocent Until Proven Guilty?

Nothing. Read conorh91's post.

MrP

FluffyAngel · 29-01-2015 10:06AM

this will not end well ....

2 stroke · 29-01-2015 10:09AM

At last. Justification for secretly filming every encounter. Smile ladies.

Lyaiera · 29-01-2015 10:19AM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Well this is why we have camera phones. "Okay love - face me and speak clearly!"

Consent can be withdrawn.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

What happened to Innocent Until Proven Guilty?

You do realise it's the prosecutions role to prove them guilty. That's the whole point of the prosecution.

2 stroke wrote: »

At last. Justification for secretly filming every encounter. Smile ladies.

Or maybe just ensure she wants to have sex?

irelandrover · 29-01-2015 10:25AM

Lyaiera wrote: »

Or maybe just ensure she wants to have sex?

How do you prove that if she says she doesn't remember, or said she didnt give consent?

Irishcrx · 29-01-2015 10:26AM

Mad isn't it...You'll often here the following sentences

' I was too drunk to remember if I consented your honour'

'I was too drunk to know what happened your honour'

'I was too drunk your honour'

Makes sense , girl was too drunk clearly he's a rapist.

But rarely ever hear this..

'I was too stoned to remember if I consented your honour'

What jury would believe the one above?

Lyaiera · 29-01-2015 11:01AM

irelandrover wrote: »

How do you prove that if she says she doesn't remember, or said she didnt give consent?

Do you know how hard it is to get a conviction for rape? You don't have to prove anything. The prosecution has to prove you committed rape. It seems like no-one has a clue of the law.

Lyaiera · 29-01-2015 11:02AM

Irishcrx wrote: »

Mad isn't it...You'll often here the following sentences

' I was too drunk to remember if I consented your honour'

'I was too drunk to know what happened your honour'

'I was too drunk your honour'

Makes sense , girl was too drunk clearly he's a rapist.

But rarely ever hear this..

'I was too stoned to remember if I consented your honour'

What jury would believe the one above?

I've literally never heard that.

strobe · 29-01-2015 11:10AM

I dont see anything wrong with the cops asking "How did you know they were consenting?".
As long as someone enthusiastically engaging in sex is considered them consenting and is considered a fine way to know they were consenting.

Lyaiera · 29-01-2015 11:11AM

strobe wrote: »

I dont see anything wrong with the cops asking "How did you know she was consenting?".
As long as a girl enthusiastically engaging in sex is considered a fine way to know she was consenting.

Yeah, "enthusiastic consent." It's a thing.

PopePalpatine · 29-01-2015 11:14AM

conorh91 wrote: »

Most misleading headline in ages.

No new legislation is planned. The DPP for England and Wales is simply circulating new guidance for prosecutors, asking these lawyers to try to prove lack of consent in a more rigorous way.

Neither the English nor Irish DPP has the authority to enact new laws or to flip the burden of proof to an accused person. The golden thread remains intact: the Prosecution must prove everything, the Defence need prove nothing.

It's just the Telegraph exaggerating its stories to give its readers the only bit of excitement many of them ever get.

TL;DR: no changes to the law, no changes to the presumption of innocence, just the DPP asking lawyers to work harder to prove that the alleged victim did not consent.

That won't stop outraged MRAs from spewing out their Mountain Dew in fury.

Potatoeman · 29-01-2015 11:14AM

If we want equality we need equality in responsibility.

kjl · 29-01-2015 11:49AM

reminds me of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo4568PIRnk

jayo26 · 29-01-2015 04:52PM

Thank god I've a family and I'm gone past the stage of going out on the pulll ect ect but the thing I have a problem with is this is all coming from the ched Evans case in the UK and as much as I deplore everything to do with rape and taking advantage of a drunken woman how the hell do you prove that she said yes? So for instance if a guy is drunk he meets a girl out who is drunk too they go back to his or her place and do the business then the next day he wakes up and thinks ohh god shouldn't of done that she ain't so hot looking when I'm sober so he says he don't want anything to do with her so she gets all upset and says he raped her... Where do u draw the line? How do u prove that she said yes or no? I'm using a female as an example I understand it can work both ways.

Lyaiera · 29-01-2015 05:02PM

It wouldn't be prosecuted due to lack of sufficient evidence.

It's hard to get a rape conviction.

inforfun · 29-01-2015 05:31PM

Breathalyzer.

Never leave home without it.

jayo26 · 29-01-2015 06:10PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

It wouldn't be prosecuted due to lack of sufficient evidence.

It's hard to get a rape conviction.

But in the case of ched Evans in the UK he was convicted of rape and his mate who brought the girl back to the hotel was acquitted of rape even tho the cctv showed her walking to the hotel room and walking away from the hotel room. It all seemed to hinge on a text from one mate to the other saying I've got a bird..

jackofalltrades · 29-01-2015 06:14PM

From the CPS document on the topic.

In investigating the suspect, it must be established what steps, if any, the suspect took to obtain the complainant’s consent and the prosecution must prove
that the suspect did not have a reasonable belief that the complainant was consenting.

Yeah so they're going to ask you if you looked for consent.
Which depending on the circumstances could be difficult to provide irrefutable proof.

Lyaiera wrote: »

Yeah, "enthusiastic consent." It's a thing.

Would you not consider "someone enthusiastically engaging in sex" to be consenting?

jayo26 · 29-01-2015 06:17PM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

From the CPS document on the topic.

Yeah so they're going to ask you if you looked for consent.
Which depending on the circumstances could be difficult to provide irrefutable proof.

Would you not consider "someone enthusiastically engaging in sex" to be consenting?

"Sorry judge she was on top I could of swore she was up for it"

blastman · 29-01-2015 06:30PM

I sat on a jury for a rape case and to be honest, you end up feeling like a referee in a debating competition. There's no way to establish a "true" version of events.

bucketybuck · 29-01-2015 06:33PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

It wouldn't be prosecuted due to lack of sufficient evidence.

It's hard to get a rape conviction.

Wonder what Ched Evans thinks of that?

Men must prove a woman said 'Yes' under tough new rape rules in the UK

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