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How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

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  • #752
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    There are 2 couples that want to get married. Currently one couple cannot. what is equal about that?

    Forget the labels, gay, straight, whatever. why can one couple get married, and the other not?

    CTRL ALT DELETE, could you please answer this question, and the few questions I posted a few posts back?


  • #753
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    spikeS wrote: »
    If we are going to that extreme, would two different gender outlooks not also outweigh a single gender outlook upbringing.

    I don't think it's right to say single parents are the worst, no parenting is an ideal

    I never said single parents are the worst. I am one. And a damn good one but I'm not blind to the fact that having another person to help raise my child would give myself and my child a better life.


  • #754
    spikeS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭spikeS


    Deleted User wrote: »
    As I said - you would do well to read back on my other posts on the subject before jumping to any more wrong conclusions about what I mean by this. You are not disagreeing with me at all.

    My position on the matter is clear. We know what the ideal for a childs upbringing are. And we know that _any_ configuration of parents are equally capable of attaining everything on that list. Be it a single parent - a pair of parents of any sex - or multiple parents like in my situation - or whatever.

    But we can acknowledge this perfectly cogent fact while not balking at pointing out that in general the more parents there are - the more likely they are to be capable of meeting the demands on time and resources. It is in that way - and that way only that I would suggest any one configuration is "better" than another.

    But as I pointed out myself - and you do too - that does not mean this is a fact about single parents as a whole. I have a single parent in my family for example who due to his career and priorities actually has more time and money available for his children than two of my friends who are married on call doctors - and they have hardly any time for their kids and it is sad to see.

    In short - a generalisation about a group as a whole - is not a commentary on the attributes of any one member of that set. And as I pointed out the argument is a non argument because if 2 parents in this way were to be better than 1 - then 3 is better than 2 - and 4 is better than 3 - and so on. Which shows you how irrelevant the point is to begin with.

    So polygamous couples make the best parents?


  • #755
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »
    Nothing outside of same concerns I'd have for some hetero couples I have already stated earlier that parents being gay isn't going to negatively affect children

    Your contradicting yourself now


  • #756
    Ctrl Alt Delete
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Ctrl Alt Delete


    sup_dude wrote: »
    I think it's more like people talking about their choices and then some people coming up with silly reasons to vote no and expecting others to grovel in order to change their vote

    Personally I don't know expect anyone to try change my opinion to be fair this is one these referendums where there will be a very small amount of don't knows.

    Your either firmly in yes or not camp and I'd dare say few from either would be swayed


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  • #757
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »
    Personally I don't know expect anyone to try change my opinion to be fair this is one these referendums where there will be a very small amount of don't knows.

    Your either firmly in yes or not camp and I'd dare say few from either would be swayed

    Except for people voting on ignorance and then being told otherwise.


  • #758
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,344 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    spikeS wrote: »
    If we are going to that extreme, would two different gender outlooks not also outweigh a single gender outlook upbringing.

    It would - if "gender outlook" actually meant something. However I am not sure it does - which kind of would negate the argument itself if anyone were to make it. :)
    Tasden wrote: »
    Well as a single parent struggling to juggle it all atm, myself and my child would welcome two more people to help! :pac:

    I came across an interesting phenomenon when doing a talk on subjects like this in the UK. A group of women I met after the talk had essentially started a "commune" house. That is to say that rather than the 4 of them living as single mothers - with all the difficulties and costs that entails - they moved in together into a big place which - due to the economies of scale - actually was quite affordable.

    And also due to scaling - their task of parenting became easier too. 4 parents looking after 4 children together turned out to be monumentally easier than doing so separately. To the point 2 of them improved their hours at work and got more money - while another 2 of them managed to return to and complete college.

    Was ever so happy for them - brought a tear to the eye seeing such solidarity with such a nice result.

    Havent really met anyone doing the same thing in Ireland yet. But made a lot of sense to me.


  • #759
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    spikeS wrote: »
    So polygamous couples make the best parents?

    Ah spike, what are you trying to say? No, they may or they may not, depending on the person. However, the more people raising the child, the easier it is.


  • #760
    COYVB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,660 ✭✭✭COYVB


    spikeS wrote: »
    So polygamous couples make the best parents?

    Hint: Couple means 2


  • #761
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,344 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    spikeS wrote: »
    So polygamous couples make the best parents?

    If you say so. I certainly did not. Not even sure what a polygamous couple even is.

    What I did say was that anyone who is making the argument that 2 parents is better than 1 for resource reasons alone - would therefore be by definition making the point above.


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  • #762
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »
    Personally I don't know expect anyone to try change my opinion to be fair this is one these referendums where there will be a very small amount of don't knows.

    Your either firmly in yes or not camp and I'd dare say few from either would be swayed

    Your opinion makes no sense. It is illogical and seems to contradict your own beliefs.


  • #763
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    spikeS wrote: »
    So polygamous couples make the best parents?

    I think his point is the more help the better. Could be the other parent, a grandparent, good friend etc.


  • #764
    Ctrl Alt Delete
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Ctrl Alt Delete


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    There are 2 couples that want to get married. Currently one couple cannot. what is equal about that?

    Forget the labels, gay, straight, whatever. why can one couple get married, and the other not?

    CTRL ALT DELETE, could you please answer this question, and the few questions I posted a few posts back?

    It's not equal 100% its not however in relation to your 2nd point you cannot forget the labels it's the very reason for the referendum in the first place.

    Alot of questions / points being fired at me I'm not trying to avoid any.


  • #765
    Ctrl Alt Delete
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Ctrl Alt Delete


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Your contradicting yourself now

    No I believe I've been very consitant in stating being gay would have no negative affects on a child.


  • #766
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    It would - if "gender outlook" actually meant something. However I am not sure it does - which kind of would negate the argument itself if anyone were to make it. :)



    I came across an interesting phenomenon when doing a talk on subjects like this in the UK. A group of women I met after the talk had essentially started a "commune" house. That is to say that rather than the 4 of them living as single mothers - with all the difficulties and costs that entails - they moved in together into a big place which - due to the economies of scale - actually was quite affordable.

    And also due to scaling - their task of parenting became easier too. 4 parents looking after 4 children together turned out to be monumentally easier than doing so separately. To the point 2 of them improved their hours at work and got more money - while another 2 of them managed to return to and complete college.

    Was ever so happy for them - brought a tear to the eye seeing such solidarity with such a nice result.

    Havent really met anyone doing the same thing in Ireland yet. But made a lot of sense to me.

    A few of my friends in similar circumstances were looking into a house share like that but the issue was with finding a location that suited. Most of us and our kids would be very close to our extended family for example so moving too far from them would be a big adjustment. Trying to find somewhere close to everybody's family, kid's schools, work, college etc, it wasn't going to work together for our group unfortunately. I think its common in the uk actually. Great idea though.


  • #767
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »
    No I believe I've been very consitant in stating being gay would have no negative affects on a child.

    You haven't you mentioned that the reason you were going to vote no was children. You reasoning was fulsomely dealt with by several posters.


  • #768
    Ctrl Alt Delete
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Ctrl Alt Delete


    sup_dude wrote: »
    Except for people voting on ignorance and then being told otherwise.

    Well your perfectly free to define me as ignorant all you want I still dont think there will be many in the yes or no camp who will sway to the other side.


  • #769
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

    Alot of questions / points being fired at me I'm not trying to avoid any.

    They all essentially asking why are you opposed without a valid reason?
    Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »
    No I believe I've been very consitant in stating being gay would have no negative affects on a child.

    Then why, according to you, should gay people not marry?


  • #770
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »
    No I believe I've been very consitant in stating being gay would have no negative affects on a child.

    So why are you using the children issue as your reason to vote No?


  • #771
    COYVB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,660 ✭✭✭COYVB


    Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »
    No I believe I've been very consitant in stating being gay would have no negative affects on a child.

    But you still don't want them allowed to have kids, or marry?


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  • #772
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »
    Well your perfectly free to define me as ignorant all you want I still dont think there will be many in the yes or no camp who will sway to the other side.

    You were ignorant. You didn't know that the abortion issue was completely seperate to this referendum


  • #773
    Ctrl Alt Delete
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Ctrl Alt Delete


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    You haven't you mentioned that the reason you were going to vote no was children. You reasoning was fulsomely dealt with by several posters.

    Because I believe a child should be raised by a mother and father and I believe a marriage should be husband and wife.


  • #774
    Ctrl Alt Delete
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Ctrl Alt Delete


    sup_dude wrote: »
    You were ignorant. You didn't know that the abortion issue was completely seperate to this referendum

    I never mentioned abortion. What I did mention was adoption and again what I stated about that is currently a gay couple cannot adopt.

    That is currently factually correct is it not?


  • #775
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,259 ✭✭✭Daith


    Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »
    Because I believe a child should be raised by a mother and father and I believe a marriage should be husband and wife.

    And for children that are raised by same sex parents you are happy for them to not have the same rights as a child raised by a mother and father?


  • #776
    COYVB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,660 ✭✭✭COYVB


    Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »
    Because I believe a child should be raised by a mother and father and I believe a marriage should be husband and wife.

    When you're referring to marriage, are you referring to the religious thing, or the legal thing? Because if it's the religious thing, then that's perfectly fine. Most churches define it as between as husband and wife, so if you want to play their game you play by their rules. No qualms there.

    If it's legally though, I find it hard to see why it makes a damned bit of difference to you


  • #777
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,160 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    eviltwin wrote: »
    How is it that all these No voters have gay friends? :rolleyes:

    They all know Paddy Manning?


  • #778
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »
    I never mentioned abortion. What I did mention was adoption and again what I stated about that is currently a gay couple cannot adopt.

    That is currently factually correct is it not?

    Sorry, autocorrect on phone.

    Currently, it's correct. With regard to the referendum, it is not correct. Before we get to the referendum, there will be a change (which you will not vote on) and gay couples can adopt. This will happen regardless of the results of the referendum.


  • #779
    Ctrl Alt Delete
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Ctrl Alt Delete


    Daith wrote: »
    And for children that are raised by same sex parents you are happy for them to not have the same rights as a child raised by a mother and father?

    Exactly what rights to the child are affected ?

    Rights for the adoptive parents would be more relevant surely?


  • #780
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,259 ✭✭✭Daith


    Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »
    Exactly what rights to the child are affected ?

    Rights for the adoptive parents would be more relevant surely?

    The child does not have the right to have both parents identified in law. Their family does not have the same rights as other families.

    You are ok with this?


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  • #781
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »
    Because I believe a child should be raised by a mother and father and I believe a marriage should be husband and wife.

    Do you not believe people should have autonomy to do what is right for them? I don't think people should smoke and as a vegetarian I don't think people should eat meat but it's not my responsibility to force my views on other people. Everyone should be free to make decisions that are right for them and their family. Your views are irrelevant.


This discussion has been closed.
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