Diet Vs Safe cycling

BenEadir · 18-01-2015 09:05PM #1

Hi guys,

I injured my knee in April. Long story short is I had no aerobic activity of any sort for almost 6 months and put on 7kg's hitting 101kg which for a 46 year old who is just over 6 foot tall is about 15kg overweight so I've been on phase one of the Harcombe Diet for the last two weeks and have lost 7kg. It's a no carb, no caffine, no alcohol and no sugar diet. I basically eat bacon and eggs with salad for breakfast, a tuna salad for lunch and meat/chicken/fish with veg for dinner. I can eat as much as I want but prior to my 40km hilly spin around Enniskerry today I didn't realise the importance of having some stored carbs :eek:

I felt as weak as a mouse the whole way and never got going. Everything was a slog and I was ready to lie down and sleep by the time I got home.

Having now eaten (2 steaks, + steamed veg and a fresh spicy tomato and coriander salsa washed down with 2 litres of water) I feel much better. the legs are like jelly but other than that I'm tired but fine.

I just checked out fatigue on a bike and found this article about "The Bonk" - https://www.ride25.com/cycling-blog/bonking-birds-bees.

Now I'm not saying I had a bad case of the Bonk or even experienced The Bonk but now that I know what can happen if you don't have carbs on board when heading out for a spin I'm wondering what are the "best" carbs people take on board to prepare for a spin and how much do you need to take on? In order to stick with the diet as much as possible whilst still being able to get out for a safe spin I'd rather take on just enough carbs to fuel a 2-3 hour spin via natural sources such as a banana if possible rather than a plate of white pasta.

Any tips/suggestions?

fits · 18-01-2015 09:12PM

Having gone for a hilly cycle once before breakfast and nearly passing out, i'd agree its better to have something. Oatmeal is always a good one. Slow release complex carbs are what you'd be looking for. A banana is a good option mid ride.
Are you eating no carbs at all? That cannot be good for your health.

JBokeh · 18-01-2015 09:12PM

Bananas for me,pretty much instant energy from them,feels like a power nap.

I take jellies like haribo or whatever else the petrol station has, with me on the MTB,and pick at them slowly rather than a banana,but I have a backpack with me then and not just a jersey so there is room for that kind of thing. You can get these things called "gels" from a bike shop,they are a little sachet of strong tasting stuff that give you a quick kick of energy,Personally I think they taste like chemicals so I stay away,but they do work

Not a lot of energy to be gotten from meats and that,good for after exercise but not great before it,fruits and other sweet things are the way to go. I'm sure someone will be able to tell you the science,because i'm just telling you what works for me.

Hi Ho · 18-01-2015 09:18PM

BenEadir wrote: »

Hi guys,

I injured my knee in April. Long story short is I had no aerobic activity of any sort for almost 6 months and put on 7kg's hitting 101kg which for a 46 year old who is just over 6 foot tall is about 15kg overweight so I've been on phase one of the Harcombe Diet for the last two weeks and have lost 7kg. It's a no carb, no caffine, no alcohol and no sugar diet. I basically eat bacon and eggs with salad for breakfast, a tuna salad for lunch and meat/chicken/fish with veg for dinner. I can eat as much as I want but prior to my 40km hilly spin around Enniskerry today I didn't realise the importance of having some stored carbs :eek:

I felt as weak as a mouse the whole way and never got going. Everything was a slog and I was ready to lie down and sleep by the time I got home.

Having now eaten (2 steaks, + steamed veg and a fresh spicy tomato and coriander salsa washed down with 2 litres of water) I feel much better. the legs are like jelly but other than that I'm tired but fine.

I just checked out fatigue on a bike and found this article about "The Bonk" - https://www.ride25.com/cycling-blog/bonking-birds-bees.

Now I'm not saying I had a bad case of the Bonk or even experienced The Bonk but now that I know what can happen if you don't have carbs on board when heading out for a spin I'm wondering what are the "best" carbs people take on board to prepare for a spin and how much do you need to take on? In order to stick with the diet as much as possible whilst still being able to get out for a safe spin I'd rather take on just enough carbs to fuel a 2-3 hour spin via natural sources such as a banana if possible rather than a plate of white pasta.

Any tips/suggestions?

It takes the body some time to adjust to call on stored fats rather than more accessible sugars and fats. Be careful not to upset this adjustment too soon by 'feeding' it with carbs, especially sugars. Some carb supplement is necessary for moderate efforts over 90 min., but avoid gels etc like the plague.
Consider keeping your spins under 2 hrs, ride easy, stick to your low carb diet and give the body time to adapt. (When well adjusted some ultra athletes can do huge performances on stored fat as opposed to carb fuelling)

Ole Rodrigo · 18-01-2015 09:25PM

Porridge with soy milk, scrambled eggs on toast and black coffee. You shouldn't need to bring anything after that breakfast for 3 hours plus, but a banana would be good just in case.

Carbs are neccessary for cardio work especially at this time of year. High fat low carb diets like you mentioned will take a while to adapt to, and IMO its not worth it if you cycle regularly, unless you need to avoid sugar for some reason.

BenEadir · 18-01-2015 09:32PM

fits wrote: »

Having gone for a hilly cycle once before breakfast and nearly passing out, i'd agree its better to have something. Oatmeal is always a good one. Slow release complex carbs are what you'd be looking for. A banana is a good option mid ride.
Are you eating no carbs at all? That cannot be good for your health.

Phase one of The Harcombe Diet (quick summary here http://www.goodtoknow.co.uk/wellbeing/539591/the-harcombe-diet) is about hitting the detox reset button and rapid weight loss for between 5 days and a few weeks depending on your circumstances and your target weight loss so there are absolutely no carbs in phase one and I'm currently in phase one but will be moving to phase two Monday week which re-introduces limited amounts of carbs and dairy including cheese etc. the idea of phase two is to monitor the re-introduction of things in a structured manner to see if some food elements have a disproportionate effect on weight e.g. bread might lead to a lot of bloating and weight gain so you learn what to limit.

There will be carbs in phase two so hopefully I'll plan my carbs to be pre physical activity.

Phase 3 then is about living normally within the guidlines of the diet so no mixing carbs and protein, if you want carbs have a meal of carbs with veg/salad/tomato sauce etc but no meat and similarly if you want a big feck off steak knock yourself out but don't eat any carbs with the meal. Basically keep carbs and protein separated, cut down the alcohol, stay away from added sugar and don't eat processed food if at all possible.

Porridge next weekend before my spins and bring a banana sounds like a plan.

Thanks.

ford2600 · 18-01-2015 09:32PM

Your 6 months scratching might have more to do with your energy levels than your diet.

Depending on terrain, speed, weight etc you didn't burn anymore than 1000 cals, probably not much with 800 cals.

Your 15kgs of excess fat is 120,000 calories or so, but it can take time, as HiHo says, to adapt your body to do that. Even for an average athlete 100km before breakfast isn't difficult with adaptation.

In practice have a coffee, hop on bike without breakfast, plan a shortish ride and throw two bannans into jersey in case of bonk but try get home without it.

BTW one or two ponds a week is probably more sustainable in the long run; a lot of early weight loss on low carb is fluid. Whatever diet says keep fibre high, veg and fruit, and add a little salt if eating mainly whole foods

BenEadir · 18-01-2015 09:38PM

Thanks lads, some great advice.

Off to bed for a well earned sleep!!

Slydice · 18-01-2015 10:13PM

ford2600 wrote: »

Your 6 months scratching might have more to do with your energy levels than your diet.

Yeah, 6 months of no exercise and surely the muscles won't be nearly as strong as they used to be. Would more cycling to build back the muscles not be a good solution?

Hi Ho · 18-01-2015 10:25PM

Ole Rodrigo wrote: »

....Carbs are neccessary for cardio work especially at this time of year....

This, stated this simplistically, is just not the case - maybe try to get some expert advice give the diet oath you have chosen.

Ole Rodrigo · 18-01-2015 10:50PM

Hi Ho wrote: »

This, stated this simplistically, is just not the case - maybe try to get some expert advice give the diet oath you have chosen.

I was referring to complex carbs such as oats, and that cycling this time of year requires more calories.

12 sprocket · 19-01-2015 08:43AM

BenEadir wrote: »

Phase one of The Harcombe Diet (quick summary here http://www.goodtoknow.co.uk/wellbeing/539591/the-harcombe-diet) is about hitting the detox reset button and rapid weight loss for between 5 days and a few weeks depending on your circumstances and your target weight loss so there are absolutely no carbs in phase one and I'm currently in phase one but will be moving to phase two Monday week which re-introduces limited amounts of carbs and dairy including cheese etc. the idea of phase two is to monitor the re-introduction of things in a structured manner to see if some food elements have a disproportionate effect on weight e.g. bread might lead to a lot of bloating and weight gain so you learn what to limit.

There will be carbs in phase two so hopefully I'll plan my carbs to be pre physical activity.

Phase 3 then is about living normally within the guidlines of the diet so no mixing carbs and protein, if you want carbs have a meal of carbs with veg/salad/tomato sauce etc but no meat and similarly if you want a big feck off steak knock yourself out but don't eat any carbs with the meal. Basically keep carbs and protein separated, cut down the alcohol, stay away from added sugar and don't eat processed food if at all possible.

Porridge next weekend before my spins and bring a banana sounds like a plan.

Thanks.

Has the lady who wrote this Harcombe Diet book any qualifications in nutrition or food science??... Its Madness following diets that are written by unqualified people, also its a weight loss diet whereas nutrition for sport or cycling should be supporting the workloads and recovery required..

The Harcombe Diet is a diet which set out to answer the age long conundrum of why we have such an obesity problem in the UK, when all everybody wants is to be slim.

Written by a lady who struggled for years with unworkable diets and food cravings (sound familiar?),
Read more at http://www.goodtoknow.co.uk/wellbeing/539591/the-harcombe-diet#6LuKkBthp7hoaUQr.99

BenEadir · 19-01-2015 09:23AM

Slydice wrote: »

Yeah, 6 months of no exercise and surely the muscles won't be nearly as strong as they used to be. Would more cycling to build back the muscles not be a good solution?

I started back exercising in October doing a combination of gym (elliptical trainer and specific weights to build up my left leg) plus weekend spins on the bike and all that was fine. It was just yesterday which was the fist spin I went for after starting the Harcombe Diet almost two weeks earlier that knackered me and I realise now the reason is because with no carb intake for 12 days I couldn't produce the normal levels of energy to get through.

BTW, this is what breakfast looks like on this diet - pretty nice and filling actually

ford2600 · 19-01-2015 09:37AM

OP 7kgs in two weeks is probably mainly fluid rather than 7kgs of fat.

Harcombe sounds like a repackaged Atkins diet; rather than reinventing the wheel have a read of where people fall down on such diets. Two pretty decent sites which might be helpful

http://simplesciencefitness.com/

http://sigmanutrition.com/

You might never have a lot of energy on your diet ot you might adapt well; it doesn't suit a lot of people. If it does suit you it'll take you time to adapt. Either way I wouldn't be sticking rigidly to some diet if I didn't feel well on it or felt listless.

Bacon and eggs is fine but you'd probably do better with way more veg on that plate and less bacon

yop · 19-01-2015 09:58AM

Op, the thread isn't about the diet but just be careful with it, as Ford2600 said it sounds like Atkins, I did Atkins for the guts of 18 months, rapid weight loss for a while, was great, but zero energy with no carbs, I suffered every time I played football and in the end I ended up putting on a lot of the weight again.
The only thing I found good was just watching what I ate then, all in moderation of course, sugar been cut out alone for you could cut your weight over a few months and good cross training and the bike of course.
No point in dieting if you can't exercise right and you need to carb up probably the day before and the morning of a long cycle, the breakfast you have there won't give you the energy you need and could cause more damage than help.
You've made a great start with that loss but just be careful with it.

Gluck

coppinger · 19-01-2015 01:01PM

There are a great series of videos by sky cycling team on their website about diet - lots of sound advice

youtube.com/watch?v=c2c6CH5nJ_4

Personally I think if a diet has a "name" then its wrong (adkins, paleo, south beach), any diet with the words always, never, none or only in it shouldn't be trusted.

BenEadir · 19-01-2015 01:58PM

yop wrote: »

Op, the thread isn't about the diet but just be careful with it, as Ford2600 said it sounds like Atkins, I did Atkins for the guts of 18 months, rapid weight loss for a while, was great, but zero energy with no carbs, I suffered every time I played football and in the end I ended up putting on a lot of the weight again.
The only thing I found good was just watching what I ate then, all in moderation of course, sugar been cut out alone for you could cut your weight over a few months and good cross training and the bike of course.
No point in dieting if you can't exercise right and you need to carb up probably the day before and the morning of a long cycle, the breakfast you have there won't give you the energy you need and could cause more damage than help.
You've made a great start with that loss but just be careful with it.

Gluck

Thanks Yop, appreciate the advice.

I suppose the big thing that attracted me to the Harcombe Diet rather than anything else is once you have done the reset/detox phase (which I'm currently on) there is no calorie counting, you can eat as much as you want and carbs are fine once you don't mix them in the same meal with protein.

The rest of the diet is really about good quality eating, cutting out processed food, ditching sugar and keeping alcohol under control. If you have a blow out e.g. on holidays you simply do the detox phase again for a few days and hop back to controlled eating.

I'm planning a 60km spin with about 900m climbs next Saturday so I'll definitely take on carbs Friday and Sat morning + a banana in the pocket.

BenEadir · 19-01-2015 02:07PM

ford2600 wrote: »

OP 7kgs in two weeks is probably mainly fluid rather than 7kgs of fat.

Harcombe sounds like a repackaged Atkins diet; rather than reinventing the wheel have a read of where people fall down on such diets. Two pretty decent sites which might be helpful

http://simplesciencefitness.com/

Hi Ford,

Thanks for the info.

The Simple Science Fitness site correlates quite a bit with the fundamentals of the Harcombe Diet actually which is encouraging e.g the food pyramid is very similar to what is recommended for the Harcombe Diet.

nilhg · 19-01-2015 02:10PM

TBH OP I'd be running from that diet at the detox part, but then that's just me.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/dec/05/detox-myth-health-diet-science-ignorance

BenEadir · 19-01-2015 02:28PM

coppinger wrote: »

There are a great series of videos by sky cycling team on their website about diet - lots of sound advice

youtube.com/watch?v=c2c6CH5nJ_4

Personally I think if a diet has a "name" then its wrong (adkins, paleo, south beach), any diet with the words always, never, none or only in it shouldn't be trusted.

Thanks for the video, it's the nicest looking porridge ever!!

In fairness to the Harcombe Diet (Jaysus I'm beginning to sound like a disciple of it or salesman for it!!) it doesn't use the terms "always", "never" or "none" etc but it does encourage a sustainable way to eat which is healthy and less likely to result in the early weight gains being lost e.g. I'm off sugar in tea/coffee etc and I won't go back. I'm off beer and miss it a lot so I will be having some craft beers at the weekend but I'll limit it to two good quality ones and if I want a few more drinks I'll have whiskey and soda.

Lashing into the odd breakfast bap isn't a good idea but I'll still have bacon and eggs with mushrooms and tomatoes. Small sustainable adjustments is the goal.

fits · 19-01-2015 03:00PM

If you want to make small sustainable adjustments, why cut out a whole important food group though? It really is very easy to cut back on sugar, refined carbs and alcohol without completely going without. and the slow steady weight loss is more sustainable in long term.

DaithiMC · 19-01-2015 04:11PM

BenEadir wrote: »

Thanks for the video, it's the nicest looking porridge ever!!

In fairness to the Harcombe Diet (Jaysus I'm beginning to sound like a disciple of it or salesman for it!!) it doesn't use the terms "always", "never" or "none" etc but it does encourage a sustainable way to eat which is healthy and less likely to result in the early weight gains being lost e.g. I'm off sugar in tea/coffee etc and I won't go back. I'm off beer and miss it a lot so I will be having some craft beers at the weekend but I'll limit it to two good quality ones and if I want a few more drinks I'll have whiskey and soda.

Lashing into the odd breakfast bap isn't a good idea but I'll still have bacon and eggs with mushrooms and tomatoes. Small sustainable adjustments is the goal.

Just put the plan into two buckets - a weight loss phase and a weight sustaining phase. Whatever the mode you use to lose weight that works for you is the way to go. It may involve reducing a particular food group or reducing the total amount in calories by eating half portions for a few months but it will almost certainly be because you ate less calories than you used on a consistent, day to day, week to week basis. When you are at a weight you are happy with, reassess and balance as needed to sustain and the cycling will help you sustain the weight loss.

As someone earlier said then you can eat to support your activity, either to become more of a fat burning machine through fasting or just relying on ingested carbs when exercising.

The mathematics of calories is not difficult, 4 calories per gram for carbs and proteins, 9 calories per gram for fats. Carbs are used more readily for energy as they are closest in chemical composition to the stuff your body uses in generating energy so if you work out hard and fast this is the way to go but if it is a light to mid-range work out you can probably get away with your stores of fat and protein. To the extent you believe the estimations sports tracking apps make about your calories on a workout you can average a few workouts and figure out how much energy you need to replenish.

BenEadir · 19-01-2015 04:34PM

fits wrote: »

If you want to make small sustainable adjustments, why cut out a whole important food group though? It really is very easy to cut back on sugar, refined carbs and alcohol without completely going without. and the slow steady weight loss is more sustainable in long term.

The initial detox period lasts between 5 days and 3 weeks. It really hits the reset button on everything and you then re-introduce carbs. There is an initial rapid weight loss but then a long term slow weight loss as the diet you build up is healthier then what you had prior to the detox. Carbs are only cut out temporarily during the detox phase. After that you can eat carbs no problem.

fits · 19-01-2015 04:36PM

BenEadir wrote: »

The initial detox period lasts between 5 days and 3 weeks. It really hits the reset button on everything and you then re-introduce carbs. There is an initial rapid weight loss but then a long term slow weight loss as the diet you build up is healthier then what you had prior to the detox. Carbs are only cut out temporarily during the detox phase. After that you can eat carbs no problem.

I am afraid I think thats all a load of old bull. Simple good diet advice doesnt generate revenue though. But if it works for you...

BenEadir · 19-01-2015 04:42PM

fits wrote: »

I am afraid I think thats all a load of old bull. Simple good diet advice doesnt generate revenue though. But if it works for you...

Read rule 2 of your signature

What attracts me to this diet is the ability to focus on a significant weight loss and then hold that weight by eating better or even continue to lose weight slowly over a longer period as a result of having a better diet and exercise balance. I need to lose 15kg. I lost 7kg since Jan 5th and I hope to lose another 3kg by the end of this week. If I get to 90kg I'll stop the detox and start re-introducing carbs etc but in a more responsible manner with a view to losing the final 5kg over a longer sustainable period.

fits · 19-01-2015 04:52PM

Well i can understand the appeal of structure and a regime at least. Good luck with it and mind the bonking.

BenEadir · 19-01-2015 05:29PM

fits wrote: »

Well i can understand the appeal of structure and a regime at least.

Unfortunately I'm one of those people who needs discipline and structure. Left to my own devices I'll have sausage and egg sandwiches for breakfast, oh what I'd give for a sausage and egg sambo on white bread with English mustard, ketchup and mustard washed down with a cup of sweet tea

fits wrote: »

Good luck with it and mind the bonking.

I like a bit of bonking from time to time and it burns a few calories

route66 · 19-01-2015 06:39PM

BenEadir wrote: »

...
I lost 7kg since Jan 5th and I hope to lose another 3kg by the end of this week.
...

I'm open to correction, but based on my (limited) knowledge, the only way to loose that much weight in such a short space of time in a sustained way involves amputation.

10 kilos in 3 weeks is simply too much.

Sorry if this is sounding very negative, it's just that loosing weight has fairly simple science behind it - the problem for many (including me!) is the implementation of the science.

Not doubting your numbers - but it's probably not fat you're getting rid of ...

rtmie · 19-01-2015 06:56PM

Reminded of Dara O'Briain quote:
"Dietician is like dentist, nutritionist is like toothiologist"

desertcircus · 19-01-2015 07:27PM

You're talking about losing a pound a day as a realistic target. That's not sustainable weight loss, it's dangerous malnutrition masquerading as a diet. The problem is not your lack of energy, it's the fact that you're following a horrific diet.

jinkypolly · 19-01-2015 10:32PM

What is being reset and detoxed and how does that work?

Diet Vs Safe cycling

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