Your professional ethics

c_man · 15-01-2015 4:22pm #1

I was talking to a friend there, who's an electronic engineer in the UK, and he was telling me about some recent difficulties at work. Namely he refused to work on a new project which was for the military. Apparently he got a lot of flak, and it got me thinking what are your ethics in your profession, or has it even entered your mind? Is there an area/role which you would refuse to do? Would ye judge a co-worker who refused to work on something which you were involved in?

Personally, like him I would never work on military stuff. I asked some co-workers at lunch and there was an interesting cross section of thoughts on the matter. Some industries (*cough* finance *cough*) seem to bring out the worst in people's professional ethics, or maybe the industry itself that attracts some people.

tldr; is there anything legal (or indeed on the grey side of the legal interpretation) which is relatively common among your peers, for which you'd refuse to do if asked by your boss?

major bill · 15-01-2015 4:26pm

Irishman works in the UK for UK company yet won't work on a project for the British Military cause it offends him?? Is that right?

El Weirdo · 15-01-2015 4:28pm

major bill wrote: »

Irishman works in the UK for UK company yet won't work on a project for the British Military cause it offends him?? Is that right?

That wasn't how I read it.

Perhaps he'd refuse to do work for any military.

Your Superior · 15-01-2015 4:28pm

I've always had very strong personal ethics when it has come to business, and am in the very fortunate position that I can ensure my company operates along those lines. We will not work with, or for, arms manufacturers, sweatshops(unless pay and working conditions meet required standards and all staff are given the opportunity to join a union), fast food outlets or companies that test on animals for non-medical purposes such as cosmetics.

Those are just a few of the contracts we have refused in the last ten years, there have been many more besides that we have felt did not tie in with our civic and social responsibility.

coffee_cake · 15-01-2015 4:30pm

Bring out thr the worst in ethics = different to my ethics?

c_man · 15-01-2015 4:30pm

El Weirdo wrote: »

That wasn't how I read it.

Perhaps he'd refuse to do work for any military.

^This.

evo2000 · 15-01-2015 4:33pm

c_man wrote: »

I was talking to a friend there, who's an electronic engineer in the UK, and he was telling me about some recent difficulties at work. Namely he refused to work on a new project which was for the military. Apparently he got a lot of flak, and it got me thinking what are your ethics in your profession, or has it even entered your mind? Is there an area/role which you would refuse to do? Would ye judge a co-worker who refused to work on something which you were involved in?

Personally, like him I would never work on military stuff. I asked some co-workers at lunch and there was an interesting cross section of thoughts on the matter. Some industries (*cough* finance *cough*) seem to bring out the worst in people's professional ethics, or maybe the industry itself that attracts some people.

tldr; is there anything legal (or indeed on the grey side of the legal interpretation) which is relatively common among your peers, for which you'd refuse to do if asked by your boss?

If thats what he wanted to do, he was dead right for doing it, anyone giving him flak needs to stfu to be honest, some people seem to have extreme difficulties accepting personal decisions tho!

Menas · 15-01-2015 4:35pm

Hard to give a definitive list of what I would or would not work on.
Weapons and animal testing are two types of projects I would not work on. I did refuse to work on a project with a british tobacco firm some years ago but that was more because I just did not like them rather than ethics.
But that aside, it is case by case.

cajonlardo · 15-01-2015 4:35pm

El Weirdo wrote: »

Perhaps he'd refuse to do work for any military.

That puzzles me.

If his life or the lives of those dear to him could be saved by military action and said military requested him to provide his services would he then refuse?

c_man · 15-01-2015 4:35pm

Your Superior wrote: »

....

Those are just a few of the contracts we have refused in the last ten years, there have been many more besides that we have felt did not tie in with our civic and social responsibility.

Interesting. But turning down such contracts must put financial pressure on your company? And presumably you have competitors willing to do it for them, embigging (yeah it's a word right?) their market share? Like fair play, just wondering about it all!

bluewolf wrote: »

Bring out thr the worst in ethics = different to my ethics?

Not at all. I'm more referring to the carry on in Anglo etc during the 2000s. Having differences over what constitutes ethically behavior is one thing, but I'd be amazed to find someone who thinks the lads in charge there had any.

c_man · 15-01-2015 4:37pm

cajonlardo wrote: »

That puzzles me.

Some people would rather not work on projects/products, whose sole purpose is to kill human beings. Do you really find that puzzling?

evo2000 · 15-01-2015 4:38pm

cajonlardo wrote: »

That puzzles me.

If his life or the lives of those dear to him could be saved by military action and said military requested him to provide his services would he then refuse?

Would his not helping cause the military to collapse and stop functioning ? a pointless scenario to bring up tbh!

I can imagine the military bringing in say plumbers and giving the Armageddon style briefs on how there plumbing abilitys could help save lives!

B.A._Baracus · 15-01-2015 4:38pm

From my experiences with others in life... I found the words 'ethics' and 'money' rarely appear in the same sentence.

Senna · 15-01-2015 4:38pm

Your Superior wrote: »

fast food outlets

??

heroics · 15-01-2015 5:02pm

Unless its illegal I am struggling to think of anything that I would refuse to do in work on ethics grounds. Definitely something like working for military etc wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

I can understand why in the UK he might have gotten a bit of flak for not working on a military project. Were the people giving him Flak from the UK? Did any of them have family/friends in the Military? Would this project have helped prevent more UK troops dying/getting injured in combat etc. Remember UK troops have been in combat deployments since the 2003 between Iraq and afghanistan. In Afghanistan over 450 were killed and over 6000 were returned home on medical grounds. Not wanting to get into a debate over whether these wars etc were right or wrong but simply looking at it from the side of the people giving your mate a bit of flak.

Would you assist on a project if it was for a UN peacekeeping mission?

You seem to think that just because you wouldn't work on a military project that all others should be the same. I don't get the ethics part of not working on these projects so is it fair for me to say I think whatever industry you work in brings out the worst in peoples professional ethics because they are too sensitive?

I am not in finance or any related field btw.

I'm not sure why I ranted on, your second paragraph just seemed to bug me. Must be lack of caffeine and I might be hungry

Your Superior · 15-01-2015 5:06pm

c_man wrote: »

Interesting. But turning down such contracts must put financial pressure on your company? And presumably you have competitors willing to do it for them, embigging (yeah it's a word right?) their market share? Like fair play, just wondering about it all!
.

Not really that much of an issue to be honest. We're a very niche organisation, quite often working in collaboration with our so-called rivals. We throw business to them if we are too busy, and they do likewise. Granted, had we taken on those contracts we would probably been able to expand at a faster rate, but we've preferred to do it organically and in a way that suits our social vision.

c_man · 15-01-2015 5:13pm

heroics wrote: »

Were the people giving him Flak from the UK? Did any of them have family/friends in the Military?

Ok, maybe I mixed people up. I don't think this was for the British military, but rather a defence contractor or whatever. Though I'm sure they'd be supplying the British. I don't know the exact ins and outs, nor would I ask tbh.

You seem to think that just because you wouldn't work on a military project that all others should be the same. I don't get the ethics part of not working on these projects so is it fair for me to say I think whatever industry you work in brings out the worst in peoples professional ethics because they are too sensitive?

Nah, I don't wanna be judging people. It's not for me, that's all. Some of the lads on my team have previously worked on defence projects (I'm in software) and they're all sound. I just started this thread to get a conversation going!

I'm not sure why I ranted on, your second paragraph just seemed to bug me. Must be lack of caffeine and I might be hungry

I just had a Moro and coffee. I highly recommend the combo

castletownman · 15-01-2015 5:29pm

In my line of work I will do anything, as long as it doesn't involve having sex with old ladies for money or bear traps.

anncoates · 15-01-2015 5:30pm

Last time I checked, my bank doesn't take ethics as payment for the mortgage or my kids can't eat them.

B.A._Baracus · 15-01-2015 6:20pm

anncoates wrote: »

Last time I checked, my bank doesn't take ethics as payment for the mortgage or my kids can't eat them.

Well said.

Baggy Trousers · 15-01-2015 6:29pm

c_man wrote: »

I was talking to a friend there, who's an electronic engineer in the UK, and he was telling me about some recent difficulties at work. Namely he refused to work on a new project which was for the military. Apparently he got a lot of flak, and it got me thinking what are your ethics in your profession, or has it even entered your mind? Is there an area/role which you would refuse to do? Would ye judge a co-worker who refused to work on something which you were involved in?

Personally, like him I would never work on military stuff. I asked some co-workers at lunch and there was an interesting cross section of thoughts on the matter. Some industries (*cough* finance *cough*) seem to bring out the worst in people's professional ethics, or maybe the industry itself that attracts some people.

Excuse the pun right?

Antar Bolaeisk · 15-01-2015 7:41pm

I wouldn't work on a project, the result of which was a tool to that existed to kill people, even if that tool, in the right hands, could prevent further death.

I would have no problem working on a military project so long as it was of a non-lethal nature and couldn't be used to inflict suffering on others.

I also couldn't work in an environment that utilised animals for testing purposes though I can appreciate the necessity of such practices in the field of medicine.

c_man · 15-01-2015 7:47pm

anncoates wrote: »

Last time I checked, my bank doesn't take ethics as payment for the mortgage or my kids can't eat them.

Whilst I get your point, I feel it's pretty short sighted. Kids aren't brought up on food alone (and let's be honest this is Ireland, your kids won't starve). Would you work on something which you think would lead to a poorer future world (something like environmental damage etc.) in which your children would live?

Gongoozler · 15-01-2015 7:49pm

Ah, I do what I'm paid to do, I don't get to choose.

Can't imagine there's a whole lot of people out there where this is something they have to consider.

castletownman wrote: »

In my line of work I will do anything, as long as it doesn't involve having sex with old ladies for money or bear traps.

Why would you be paid in bear traps?

kirving · 15-01-2015 8:10pm

Some of the thought that goes into designing the business end of weapons systems is absolutely sick. As an engineer I just couldn't sit there all day trying to come up with the optimum way to kill someone, whether they're a terrorist or not.

The fact is though, something like an infrared camera can be used to find people in a lifeboat, or an enemy, so it's very difficult to pick and choose your work based on morals.

KomradeBishop · 15-01-2015 8:43pm

Would anyone who has a "so long as it's not illegal to do business with them" approach to ethics, have ethical issues doing business with the chemical company Bayer, who used slave labour from Auschwitz in WWII, and at the time was part of the same company that manufactured Zyklon B, which was used to kill prisoners in the Holocaust? (plus, they also invented Heroin)

Found that with just a couple minutes Googling - probably more interesting stuff to find, here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_involved_in_the_Holocaust

pharmaton · 15-01-2015 9:55pm

I have incredibly restrictive ethics. My fcuking stupid desire to seek out fairness, equality and justice prevents me from getting priddy much every most jobs. (there still may be a few places that aren't completely corrupt, which also don't require you to be corrupted)

Jawgap · 15-01-2015 9:57pm

c_man wrote: »

I was talking to a friend there, who's an electronic engineer in the UK, and he was telling me about some recent difficulties at work. Namely he refused to work on a new project which was for the military. Apparently he got a lot of flak, and it got me thinking what are your ethics in your profession, or has it even entered your mind? Is there an area/role which you would refuse to do? Would ye judge a co-worker who refused to work on something which you were involved in?

Personally, like him I would never work on military stuff. I asked some co-workers at lunch and there was an interesting cross section of thoughts on the matter. Some industries (*cough* finance *cough*) seem to bring out the worst in people's professional ethics, or maybe the industry itself that attracts some people.

tldr; is there anything legal (or indeed on the grey side of the legal interpretation) which is relatively common among your peers, for which you'd refuse to do if asked by your boss?

But you post using the internet

oppenheimer1 · 15-01-2015 10:09pm

The company I used to work for refused work in certain middle Eastern countries due to the treatment of women in those places.

They did eventually cave since the option was sell out or go bust.

UCDVet · 15-01-2015 10:14pm

I dunno - I work in finance now and I feel like it's the MOST ethical job I've ever had.

Maybe it's because we don't deal with other people's money - we don't have any fast-talking salesmen trying to get your life savings so we can invest it for you.

Each day we try to make money by buying and selling things. We trade with other firms like us (I don't know that we've ever traded with an actual person, just other companies) or we trade on exchanges. In any case, the rules are all there, a combination of legal requirements and rules set by the exchanges. Everyone playing has to meet the rules. Anything not expressly disallowed, is fair game.

No lying, no cheating. We make money because we do a good job of buying and selling things. The people we buy from are happy, the people we sell to are happy, and we make money. Anyone could do the same thing.

Before this I worked on Tax Software that was sold to local governments (not in Ireland). *THAT* was pretty unethical. First, we did all sorts of shady things - we had sales teams that would lie, we'd also buddy up to the committee that would decide what software the tax payers would be purchasing. In many cases, after someone on said committee pushed really hard to get us to be selected, we'd hire them. They'd do nothing, and we'd pay them, because they got us a million euro contract.

The company eventually got sued after the sales team told too many lies. The company had managed to rack up 30 million in debt and declared bankruptcy. Then, as if that wasn't all bad enough, in bankruptcy, another company came in and bought the failing company out.

It's the same building, in the same town, with 70% of the same employees, but the bankruptcy basically let them get a fresh start. The CEO made herself rich as f*** and while she's not actively involved in the company, I have seen her house and knowing that it was obtained through (what I consider to be) fraud and running a company 30 million into debt is insane. And I helped by working for her. That's unethical.

I'd take finance over that any day.

Gmol · 15-01-2015 10:19pm

I wouldn't have anything to do with the S*n. I would leave if our company had anything to do with it.

Your professional ethics

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