Athiests - Who cares

SpaceTime · 15-01-2015 03:33PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Ah yes, because nobody outside of Ireland has a couple of the equivalent nutbars in their own country. Sure how would they be expected to understand at all. Sure an American could never understand what extremism is like at all, nor a Chinese person, they wouldn't be familiar with concepts like persecution and intolerance at all, eh?

Ireland really IS a land of Saints* and Scholars in comparison.

*Relax, I mean saints in the commonly understood to be good people idea, not that we're all still on bended knees, etc.

To be honest, it isn't.

I have had discussions with people who were concerned about moving here / investing here because they had heard it was deeply conservative. E.g. things like being afraid that perhaps they might have issues with censorship or difficulties for gay / non-christian employees.

I've had people in the US being concerned about 'offending me' by saying something anti-religious (same in France too)... That kind of thing.

We don't like to acknowledge this in Ireland, but those questions do arise and our reputation is not as liberal as we like to think it is.

The blasphemy law in particular raised serious questions about Ireland as a location for data centres for example ...

Imagine you're "big data"... Ireland passes blasphemy legislation that could have opened the door for every right wing fundamentalist nut job to start taking legal action against your hosting facilities...

From an IT sector point of view, that was mind-blowingly stupid of the Government to introduce.

"welcome to the Ireland, home of the digital economy .. just beware of all our weird laws about what you can say!"

I'm very worried that if the same-sex marriage referendum is lost (looking unlikely), that it's going to us really bad reputational damage abroad too, especially in the very creative digital media sectors that we're trying to attract in.

I mean, if you're a high-flying IT professional / designer etc, would you go to the country with the crazy laws, or just move to London instead?

DamagedTrax · 15-01-2015 03:35PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Ah yes, because nobody outside of Ireland has a couple of the equivalent nutbars in their own country. Sure how would they be expected to understand at all. Sure an American could never understand what extremism is like at all, nor a Chinese person, they wouldn't be familiar with concepts like persecution and intolerance at all, eh?

so? in other countries, their very own public nutters (and i agree they have plenty) are visible to us over here, just look at farrage in ukip. they can, if given the right platform, influence how we think of a foreign nation just as much as our public nutters can influence them.

im not saying that we look like a right wing country full of catholic extremists by any means, but the open intolerance mixed with stupidity like the blasphamy laws, doesnt help.

Ush1 · 15-01-2015 03:37PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There's a difference between opinion and fact. If you have any facts or actual evidence to support your claims, I'm all ears.

Of course I could, could've said it 20 years ago too when I used have these discussions on Usenet newsgroups, long before Web 2.0 technology. One million followers on Twitter is nothing, a mere drop in the ocean, and even Twitter itself isn't all that big compared to some of the bigger and more popular social networks in China and India (that's over 2billion of the word's population there, just to put that 1million figure in perspective).

You're right, I'm way off in my dates, he was on the Late Late when Gay Byrne was presenting the show. That was when the Late Late show was actually worth watching, when Gay Byrne regularly had discussions on religion in Ireland and tore strips out of the RCC Hierarchy. He took Cathal Daly down a peg or two, exposed Eamonn Casey, Michael Cleary, and many, many more. He had guests like the Monty Python crew on when The Life of Brian was banned in Ireland. Gay Byrne was also instrumental in exposing the systematic abuses in the RCC in Ireland.

Ryan Tubridy is only a fawning idiot in comparison!

Again, evidence would be nice. Kodak would be the equivalent of one single religious denomination, it doesn't mean photography is a dying business.

Evidence has been listed, indeed even by yourself, speaking of the concessions religious orders are making to conform to the progressive world. That's the erosion and death of religion. I'm not going to post links to articles or studies as there is plenty within Google. It's obviously opinion as you can't speak on fact with the future.

I don't understand your point with regards Twitter to be honest. Such information tools were not available to most people and they now are.

One religious denomination? I'm not sure many viable new business religions are coming into existence, certainly not on the scale of any Abrahamic faiths. Maybe you don't get the analogy.

SpaceTime · 15-01-2015 03:38PM

I just think at times, "Official Ireland" is about 30 years behind "Real World Ireland" on most issues tho.

Ush1 · 15-01-2015 03:39PM

Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »

Just because you want this to happen does not mean it will happen. You have no idea what will happen over the next 50 or 100 years. Religion could grow and grow again and becuase more popular than it is today. Religion has been around for 1000's of years its going nowhere.

It's going buddy.

15-01-2015 03:43PM

Ush1 wrote: »

It's going buddy.

You just keep on thinking that, but you are wrong of course.

Baggy Trousers · 15-01-2015 03:46PM

Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »

You just keep on thinking that, but you are wrong of course.

Do you think there are more atheists in Ireland now than in say the 1960s (even if they wont admit it in census)?

If so, why do you think that is?

SpaceTime · 15-01-2015 03:47PM

The thing is that religion doesn't have to 'go' anywhere - there's space for religious people and non-religious people in the same state, if the state is secular.

The problem is that Ireland's notion of 'secular' is deeply flawed. It's more like Catholic with some vague notion that exceptions should be made for non-Catholics and as society in Ireland becomes ever more diverse due to people falling out of love with the Church and also through immigration, that situation is starting to become increasingly problematic and will only grow more so.

Basically, as the situation stands, non-Catholic (and non-C of I) Irish people are made feel like 2nd class citizens in their own country in many ways. That's an absolute disgrace and frankly is something that flies in the face of everything this country claims to be about and the whole republican philosophy.

There's nothing anti-religious about a secular state that guarantees religious freedom and freedom of conscience.

What we have at the moment is absolutely not that.

Also a lot of people deliberately or accidentally confuse 'secularism' and 'atheism' when they want to hammer home a point and I think actually Atheist Ireland causes confusion itself by being the only voice calling for secularism. There's no reason why Catholic, Protestant, Islamic, Jewish or any other groups couldn't call for a secular state. It's not at all incompatible with religious belief.

It's like the difference between technological platforms that operate on open standards vs ones that are proprietary and favour one supplier.

Irish secularism is a bit like Apple Opensource... Sure you can use anything you like, as long as you buy it through the official App Store.. we even allow alternative browsers on our phones (kinda)...

DamagedTrax · 15-01-2015 03:48PM

Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »

You just keep on thinking that, but you are wrong of course.

all evidence points to the decline of religion. your only argument to the contrary is what you see with your own eyes.

if thats the case then because of where im living, im going to argue that ireland is now a mostly muslim country. infact i will go one step further and suggest that the majority of the irish population is made up of pakistani muslims.

can you not see the flaw in arguing that your own personal reality is all that exists? and bizarrely enough... if not, how can you even make the stretch to believe in a god in the first place, if you cant even believe something that is actual reality?

15-01-2015 03:56PM

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

If so, why do you think that is?

More foolish people, more people let astray by outside influences, lacking faith and people thinking they are super cool and sticking it to the man by giving two fingers to religion is definitely a major one.

That doesn't suggest that in the future this trend will continue.

Baggy Trousers · 15-01-2015 03:59PM

Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »

More foolish people, more people let astray by outside influences, lacking faith and people thinking they are super cool and sticking it to the man by giving two fingers to religion is definitely a major one.

That doesn't suggest that in the future this trend will continue.

Sorry which man? Sean Brady!? Martin Drennan!?
Give me a break

Baggy Trousers · 15-01-2015 04:01PM

Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »

That doesn't suggest that in the future this trend will continue.

You didn't reply to the fact that many children in Catholic schools are opting out of the religious teaching and sacraments.

15-01-2015 04:02PM

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

You didn't reply to the fact that many children in Catholic schools are opting out of the religious teaching and sacraments.

I'd imagine its quite rare for children to opt out considering the number of people I see making communion in the various schools. Its also very mean to the child singling them out as different while all their friends have an enjoyable day.

Zubeneschamali · 15-01-2015 04:02PM

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Do you think there are more atheists in Ireland now than in say the 1960s (even if they wont admit it in census)?

Lots of atheists do fill out the census honestly, No Religion was 256,830 in 2011, the second biggest group after Roman Catholic.

DamagedTrax · 15-01-2015 04:04PM

Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »

More foolish people, more people let astray by outside influences, lacking faith and people thinking they are super cool and sticking it to the man by giving two fingers to religion is definitely a major one.

That doesn't suggest that in the future this trend will continue.

absolute rubbish. you really must have your head buried deeply not to realise the amount of hatred towards the church in this country.

its a lot more to do with an abundance of sex crimes, than any coolness factor.

Zubeneschamali · 15-01-2015 04:05PM

Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »

More foolish people, more people let astray by outside influences

Youtube, Facebook and Twitter guarantee that this trend will continue for some time.

Baggy Trousers · 15-01-2015 04:06PM

Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »

I'd imagine its quite rare considering the number of people I see making communion in the various schools.

It was 9 children out of 30 in a 2nd class in a Catholic primary school in Galway city 2 years ago. Thats 30%. Not rare.

Incidentally, the 9 children were often minded by another teacher who would help them with their homework while the other children were doing 1st communion preparation. And get this, some "holy" parents complained to the principal that the 9 children were receiving extra tuition and should be made do colouring or some such. The principal ignored them.

Zubeneschamali · 15-01-2015 04:06PM

Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »

I'd imagine its quite rare for children to opt out

It's easy to win arguments when you can simply imagine the data.

mrkiscool2 · 15-01-2015 04:06PM

Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »

More foolish people, more people let astray by outside influences

What Science? Scientists? The reason more and more people are turning away from religion isn't because of people, it's because of cover-ups, corruption, having to follow stupid rules so they won't be condemned, violence being committed in the name of certain religions etc. It's not because of outside influences.

lacking faith and people thinking they are super cool and sticking it to the man by giving two fingers to religion is definitely a major one.

What? No, that's not the reason. It's become okay to say you don't believe, it's become a thing where you won't be a social pariah for stating that. It's also because Science has shown people to be more sceptical about things people tell you. Fact is quickly becoming the way of this world and that means that people are questioning everything (which is only right).

That doesn't suggest that in the future this trend will continue.

Pretty sure the evidence saying that religion is in a downward spiral (with some reports stating that by 2030 there will be a massive shortage of priests) is more conclusive than your belief.

One eyed Jack · 15-01-2015 04:16PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

To be honest, it isn't.

I have had discussions with people who were concerned about moving here / investing here because they had heard it was deeply conservative. E.g. things like being afraid that perhaps they might have issues with censorship or difficulties for gay / non-christian employees.

We don't like to acknowledge this in Ireland, but those questions do arise.

I think Ireland actually IS for the most part a largely conservative country, and because of our size and our history, we've had the place to ourselves for a very long time. We don't have the diversity in our population that they have in mainland Europe and the US. Remember that France has only been a secular country for the last 200 years, and the US as we know it today isn't much older.

I can completely understand those people's reservations, but are we actually worse than other countries? In the UK and France, and even in Germany, there's much more diversity, which means there's people who are much more passionate and extremist in their views. In Ireland we're particularly lazy, because we've never had to adapt to anything that was different. We just went along with it, and we still do, which is why we still have 92% religious patronage in Irish education, we've still got Irish taught as our national language despite the fact that it's only spoken regularly in pockets of Ireland (the Irish language is an odd one because non Irish people seem to be gagging to learn the language, literature, music, dancing), when we Irish can't seem to abandon religion and the Irish language fast enough!

We like to think of ourselves as liberal, modern and cosmopolitan, but we've never actually been tested. The referendum on marriage equality will be a good litmus test to indicate just how liberal or conservative Ireland really is, because I would contend that despite the falling figures in Church and so on, Irish people are still very judgemental and conservative in their attitudes towards anything that differs from their perception of what is socially acceptable and what isn't. Religion was just one more way in which we could feel morally superior to our neighbours in our own communities, and the RCC provided a master class in exploiting Irish pride and how proud we are of ourselves.

The blasphemy law in particular raised serious questions about Ireland as a location for data centres for example ...

Imagine you're "big data"... Ireland passes blasphemy legislation that could have opened the door for every right wing fundamentalist nut job to start taking legal action against your hosting facilities...

From an IT sector point of view, that was mind-blowingly stupid of the Government to introduce.

"welcome to the Ireland, home of the digital economy .. just beware of all our weird laws about what you can say!"

I'm very worried that if the same-sex marriage referendum is lost (looking unlikely), that it's going to us really bad reputational damage abroad too, especially in the very creative digital media sectors that we're trying to attract in.

I mean, if you're a high-flying IT professional / designer etc, would you go to the country with the crazy laws, or just move to London instead?

Plenty of IT professionals working in Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Apple, to name just the big four more well known ones among hundreds of IT companies in Ireland. I don't think the blasphemy laws made any difference to companies that planned on locating here as much as our ridiculously low corporation tax. I can think of plenty more mind-blowingly stupid legislation the government has introduced that has had a negative effect upon Irish society than the inability to say religion is a load of bollocks!

(I'm still pissed off about the smoking ban really

)

With regard to the marriage equality referendum, has anyone else wondered why the Government hasn't said they will also reform employment legislation that allows for State Schools under religious patronage to discrimate against employees on the grounds of their sexual orientation? That's a far more significant piece of legislation than blasphemy, yet the Government are still ignoring it, and banking on the Irish people to do the same, which we will for the most part, because we haven't been tested yet or affected by it yet enough, to actually give a damn.

Ush1 · 15-01-2015 04:20PM

Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »

You just keep on thinking that, but you are wrong of course.

C'mon buddy, you know the jig is up.

15-01-2015 04:20PM

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

What Science? Scientists?

What? No, that's not the reason. It's become okay to say you don't believe, it's become a thing where you won't be a social pariah for stating that. It's also because Science has shown people to be more sceptical about things people tell you. Fact is quickly becoming the way of this world and that means that people are questioning everything (which is only right).

I am a scientist. Religion and science are not mutually exclusive. In fact many many scientists are also religious.

Baggy Trousers · 15-01-2015 04:34PM

Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »

I am a scientist. Religion and science are not mutually exclusive. In fact many many scientists are also religious.

Why have you ignored my 30% fact?

endacl · 15-01-2015 04:36PM

The funny just won't stop.

Bootros Bootros · 15-01-2015 04:37PM

It's like the A&A forum in here. I thought this thread was about sneering at new athiests(sic). Now it's run by them. Down with it.

hynesie08 · 15-01-2015 04:37PM

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Why have you ignored my 30% fact?

Because according to nox, if you're not Catholic, you're wrong and to be pitied, so he probably doesn't think those people count.

mrkiscool2 · 15-01-2015 04:38PM

Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »

I am a scientist. Religion and science are not mutually exclusive. In fact many many scientists are also religious.

Never said it was mate. I said that Science has shown that people need to question things that aren't based in fact (and even question things that are fact to further prove it). Hence people have become more sceptical which means they are questioning things like faith and religion. Just because you are a scientist doesn't mean you have to be an atheist.

I'm also a science graduate so I'm fully aware of how many scientists did or currently do believe in something like a God. Again, I have no thoughts on that. That's up to them to be honest. But saying that religion is a naturally good thing or that it is important in a childs upbringing is a bizarre thing to believe.

Maximus Alexander · 15-01-2015 04:40PM

Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »

I am a scientist. Religion and science are not mutually exclusive. In fact many many scientists are also religious.

In fairness, religion and science may not be mutually exclusive, but catholicism (if you're not going a la carte) and science definitely are. There'd be some serious cognitive dissonance going on for a devout catholic who also trusted the scientific method, one of the pillars of which is falsifiability.

Bootros Bootros · 15-01-2015 04:40PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I think Ireland actually IS for the most part a largely conservative country, and because of our size and our history, we've had the place to ourselves for a very long time. We don't have the diversity in our population that they have in mainland Europe and the US. Remember that France has only been a secular country for the last 200 years, and the US as we know it today isn't much older.

I can completely understand those people's reservations, but are we actually worse than other countries? In the UK and France, and even in Germany, there's much more diversity, which means there's people who are much more passionate and extremist in their views. In Ireland we're particularly lazy, because we've never had to adapt to anything that was different. We just went along with it, and we still do, which is why we still have 92% religious patronage in Irish education, we've still got Irish taught as our national language despite the fact that it's only spoken regularly in pockets of Ireland (the Irish language is an odd one because non Irish people seem to be gagging to learn the language, literature, music, dancing), when we Irish can't seem to abandon religion and the Irish language fast enough!

We like to think of ourselves as liberal, modern and cosmopolitan, but we've never actually been tested. The referendum on marriage equality will be a good litmus test to indicate just how liberal or conservative Ireland really is, because I would contend that despite the falling figures in Church and so on, Irish people are still very judgemental and conservative in their attitudes towards anything that differs from their perception of what is socially acceptable and what isn't. Religion was just one more way in which we could feel morally superior to our neighbours in our own communities, and the RCC provided a master class in exploiting Irish pride and how proud we are of ourselves.

Plenty of IT professionals working in Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Apple, to name just the big four more well known ones among hundreds of IT companies in Ireland. I don't think the blasphemy laws made any difference to companies that planned on locating here as much as our ridiculously low corporation tax. I can think of plenty more mind-blowingly stupid legislation the government has introduced that has had a negative effect upon Irish society than the inability to say religion is a load of bollocks!

(I'm still pissed off about the smoking ban really )

With regard to the marriage equality referendum, has anyone else wondered why the Government hasn't said they will also reform employment legislation that allows for State Schools under religious patronage to discrimate against employees on the grounds of their sexual orientation? That's a far more significant piece of legislation than blasphemy, yet the Government are still ignoring it, and banking on the Irish people to do the same, which we will for the most part, because we haven't been tested yet or affected by it yet enough, to actually give a damn.

I am pretty sure that ireland is now above the European diversity norm. Your whole premise not only fails on that grounds but on the while facts of how right wing groups organise across Europe.

I would agree that the RC hooked into a kind of santimonious hypocrisy now passed onto the PC priesthood.

SpaceTime · 15-01-2015 04:44PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

With regard to the marriage equality referendum, has anyone else wondered why the Government hasn't said they will also reform employment legislation that allows for State Schools under religious patronage to discrimate against employees on the grounds of their sexual orientation? That's a far more significant piece of legislation than blasphemy, yet the Government are still ignoring it, and banking on the Irish people to do the same, which we will for the most part, because we haven't been tested yet or affected by it yet enough, to actually give a damn.

I can assure you the first successful prosecution under the Blasphemy legislation will have them all rethinking where to host data. Sure, the sales jobs and stuff might stay here, but there'll be a major rethink about whether you'd want to expose your customers to that kind of thing.

Athiests - Who cares

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