Athiests - Who cares

I think the title of this thread sums up Irish attitudes at official level and establishment to religious diversity and freedom of conscience.

Lia_lia wrote: »

I find that these "annoying atheists" are usually the ones who were brought up with religion (usually strict religious parents) and then decided they were atheist at some point.

My Dad's side of the family have no religion, it's not even mentioned. I lived in England and France until I moved here when I was about 8. Before I moved to Ireland I didn't even know religion existed! Mainly because I never went to a religious school before that, and my parents didn't baptise us or mention anything about religion. My Mother did get us baptised in the end because she didn't want us to feel left out with communion etc, after moving from a different country.

It's only when I started speaking to friends about religion that I realised how big of a deal it was in their upbringing, so it doesn't really surprise me how much some people talk about their atheism.

It does really annoy me when people with no religion try to make out that religious people are stupid. I couldn't care less what others believe in, even if it makes no sense to me.

Similar experience here (grew up partially in more progressive countries) and had very very bad experiences of Irish primary teachers in the 90s including being referred to as "the heathen" and being told that my parents were a disgrace for not taking me to mass and also told lies that if I didn't make my confirmation I wouldn't be allowed to go to secondary school.

captbarnacles wrote: »

But he's using his intelligence (that 'God gave him') to assess whether or not God exists which as per the Bible he is required to do so obviously God will be aware of this and will let him into heaven.

Congrats Kylith. You are going to paradise.

you just broke religion and my brain in one go :eek:

Wurzelbert wrote: »

i know what you mean, atheists tend to be like that as they think they know best anyway...though i have yet to hear convincing and coherent answers to the really big questions from an atheist...

perhaps if you pose a 'really big question' to us, we could give our own answers? i quite enjoy theorising on that which cannot be explained.

Lia_lia wrote: »

My Brother told his teacher that he was making his communion "for the money" and my Mother was called in for a meeting

I used to get pulled aside by the vice-principal and quizzed about my family's beliefs quite a lot with much tutting. I was handed bibles, religion books, pamphlets etc etc to take home and read. That sort of weirdness.

When I eventually told them at home what happened (months later) they actually took me out of the school after a very loud discussion with the principal. I ended up being moved into a private school, still Catholic one, but far more open minded as it had a diversity of intake and more international students.

I still hated it and wanted to move for years.

My whole view of Ireland didn't really change until I hit the end of second level and then university which was totally secular. I just had this notion that I'd moved to some kind of depressing version of Hogwarts with priests for years.

I really don't think Irish people understand how absolutely weird the education system is here. "we" think it's normal because most of us have never experienced anything else and think that primary school and Mass are two very similar things.

If you think about how most Irish teachers are trained too (especially primary):

Religious primary school > Religious secondary school > Religious teaching training academy [no exposure to secular university systems ever and probably quite institutionalised].

At least second level teachers get a bit more of exposure to the real world and diversity of points of view for a few years.

There's also the fact that in primary especially, your job / promotional options were all about sucking up to your employer and being extra pious in the past. So, I suspect a lot of older teachers are extremely-conservative / likely to be the kinds of people who tow the line at all times - be seen at Mass several times a week and so on.

Then you've got the fact that the management of the education system is often being done by people who have nothing whatsoever got to do with teaching - i.e. the parish priest!?
Surely it should be managed by expert educators and child development specialists, educational psychologists and so on ?

I don't really see why knowing how to say Mass is a qualification for running a large educational establishment, which seems to often be the case here.

One other little thing that REALLY annoys me is the insistence on having prayers in the Dail and Seanad.

I mean why not just read out Anglo Irish Bank's mission statement or something, it's the worst and most corrupt form of insider lobbying / corporatism I've ever witnessed in what is supposed to be a religiously diverse Republic.

You're letting a 3rd party organisation directly into the heart of the Irish democratic process without any reason for it to be there and possibly chilling debates on controversial topics too.

This is what is said at the start of EVERY session.

I have no issue with TDs having personal religious beliefs, I have a huge issue with introducing them to the formal procedures of a parliament.

Direct, we beseech Thee, O Lord, our actions by Thy holy inspirations and carry them on by Thy gracious assistance; that every word and work of ours may always begin from Thee, and by Thee be happily ended; through Christ our Lord. Amen.

or

Iarraimíd Ort, a Thiarna, d'anáil naofa a chur fúinn chun sinn a stiúradh inár ngníomhartha agus neart do ghrásta a bhronnadh orainn chun iad a thabhairt chun críche, ionas gur uaitse a thosófar ár n-uile bhriathar agus ár n-uile ghníomh feasta, agus gur tríot a chríochnófar iad; trí Chríost ár dTiarna.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/a-misc/prayer.htm

So, basically it's a big f**k off to anyone who isn't a very particular couple of flavours of Christian never mind someone who might be non-religious or of a very different religion.

To me that says "this is our nice holy parliament, you're most unwelcome.. f**k off back to France, America or whatever heathen place you came from!"

I think a lot of people have a lot of things to be somewhat annoyed by when it comes to the way things operate in Ireland. There's too much 'aragh sure it's grand..." attitudes taken and I think it'll probably end up where there's expensive legal action taken against the state for discrimination in education at some stage in the future as society becomes more diverse.

It's also going to cause ghettoisation of primary / secondary schools as other religious groups demand similar treatment.

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'm quite proud to be Irish but I still absolutely cringe when I have to explain the religious fundementalism of the recent past when I'm abroad.

Things like "yes, really, they did ban condoms right up until the 1970s... and yes, you needed a prescription for them in the 1980s..."

and "no, oddly enough it wasn't actually a theocratic dictatorship at the time..."

and "yes, we did introduce a blasphemy law in the late 2000s, not the 1600s..."

I had French journalist friends of mine asking if it "was safe" to visit Ireland after that law came in as they'd published things that might be considered blasphemous and were afraid that they might be prosecuted by religious fundamentalists here.

I don't think most Irish people actually realise what a totally nutty backwater that piece of legislation made us look. It was like something Russia would do under the current Putin regime.

It's very hard to argue that "no really! it is actually a very liberal place these days..."

Then you've all the horror stories about the institutional abuse and Magdalene laundries that's been picked up in parts abroad too so, people are vaguely aware of that too.

throw in a smattering of public figures such as dana or john waters and those on the outside could be forgiven for thinking the loons have taken over the asylum!

SpaceTime wrote: »

I don't really have any issue with Dana, she has her beliefs, she's quite open about them and people opt not to vote for her.

It's the sneaky stuff where it's all quietly inserted into the system without any oversight / choice in the matter.

I don't think the Irish public is that conservative at all, and I don't know if they ever were either. They were however very definitely cowed by establishment figures / organisations who were gatekeepers to all sorts of essential services like health, welfare, education, employment opportunities and so on...

i agree. but as you were talking about how we look to the outside, people like dana and waters make the headlines. the undercurrent rarely does.

DamagedTrax wrote: »

i agree. but as you were talking about how we look to the outside, people like dana and waters make the headlines. the undercurrent rarely does.

Well, I just find in some conversations we're thrown in with the US deep south.
Also, you hear a lot of very serious right-wing fundamentalism coming out of NI e.g. the debates up there around Gay Marriage which are like something out of Alabama.

The debates in the Republic are actually extremely enlightened in comparison (even in comparison to most continental countries and way way ahead of the US.)