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Athiests - Who cares

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  • #812
    Baggy Trousers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭Baggy Trousers


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    The pressure to reduce the number of Catholic schools here is not coming from Atheist pressure groups, it's coming from parents.

    Even the bishops admit that they are patrons of too many primary schools.

    Atheists are a bit cross that there is no possibility of an actual secular school here - even the Educate Together schools are obliged to teach all religions, not none. The Primary School curriculum mandates 30 minutes a day. They have what, 4.5 hours a day of classes, and have to spend 10% of their time on this crap.

    Wow I did not know that. That's insane in the modern world! They'll laugh about that in years to come.

    If we do get secular schools, I would expect to see the numbers claiming to be Roman catholic drop like a stone.


  • #813
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,898 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »
    The census is the official way the country finds out this information and according to the census 83% of people in Ireland are catholic.

    The government can quite legitimately hold up the census and say that the country is more than 3/4 catholic and therefore things like catholic schools etc should obviously remain.

    Its hilarious how people want rid of catholic schools here when in places like the UK people jump through every hoop imaginable to get into them as they are far better schools.

    in the UK catholic schools are private schools. private generally provide a better education than public schools. they simply have more resources. That goes for catholic, protestant and even non denominational schools.

    The census is not the only way to getting data. The results of the EU survey are also relevant. They're so relevant that even the church takes notice of it. I posted the information from it a couple of pages back. It shows a steady decline both in the numbers of people that identify as catholic and the number of Catholics who take the religion seriously. The UN, EU and NATO actually garner more trust and respect than the catholic church.


  • #814
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    i wonder about the number of people that pretend to be catholic to get their kids in the local school. i'd say that could eat well into Ismael Freezing Tv's 83% census figure.


  • #815
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,774 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Baggy Trousers wrote: »
    Wow I did not know that. That's insane in the modern world! They'll laugh about that in years to come.

    If we do get secular schools, I would expect to see the numbers claiming to be Roman catholic drop like a stone.

    Yet as I pointed out in the UK people go to huge lengths to get into catholic schools.

    Over there the better the school the more points you need, to gain points the child and parents must play an active roll in the church. Serving mass = x points, parents cleaning the church = y points etc. Large numbers of people do this as they very much want their children in catholic schools and the schools are known as being excellent.
    Grayson wrote: »
    in the UK catholic schools are private schools. private generally provide a better education than public schools. they simply have more resources. That goes for catholic, protestant and even non denominational schools.
    .

    They aren't really private in that they are not fee paying and any one who is a catholic can attend one. You also need to be catholic to work in one as far as I know.


  • #816
    TwoShedsJackson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,438 ✭✭✭TwoShedsJackson


    Baggy Trousers wrote: »
    Careful, Ismael Freezing Tv now believes you are a fish.

    His real problem will come when Kneemos starts to believe he's a fish.
    Ismael Freezing Tv wrote: »
    though I stand by the fact that there are bigger number attending now in the city churches than a few years ago.

    That's stating an opinion, not standing by a fact.


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  • #817
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,774 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

    That's stating an opinion, not standing by a fact.

    So why is my evidence not valid? Its certainly better than the evidence of people who don't go to mass so have no clue whats going on. Does the fact the churches I attend are busier now than a few years ago not indicate an increase in the numbers attending. Also the fact I'm giving examples of different churches, in different parts of the country and both city and rural churches.

    It simply doesn't suit the agenda of atheists who think Catholicism is going away when in fact it is not and therefore they will come up with reasons why Im wrong.


  • #818
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,898 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    So, as a catholic, would you agree that the only prerequisite for being a catholic is to say you are one?

    Officially when you are born Original sin is a kind of "indelible mark" on your soul. When you get baptised it wipes it off. They say however that the soul is still not perfect. It's kinda like the way a wet glass makes rings on a wooden table.

    That's what makes you catholic according to catholic doctrine. Since there's no way to remove this mark thing you will always be catholic. Even if you renounce your faith, you're still a catholic. Just a really bad one.

    technically there's no escape.


  • #819
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »

    Over there the better the school the more points you need, to gain points the child and parents must play an active roll in the church. Serving mass = x points, parents cleaning the church = y points etc. Large numbers of people do this as they very much want their children in catholic schools and the schools are known as being excellent.

    so they pretend to be catholic to get their kids in.. just like here then. except here its because it saves time in the morning.
    You also need to be catholic to work in one as far as I know.

    in that sentence you could change 'catholic' to any other word and you'd probably have a law suit on your hands..


  • #820
    TwoShedsJackson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,438 ✭✭✭TwoShedsJackson


    Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »
    So why is my evidence not valid?

    Because it's not evidence, it's an opinion formed by you, based on observing Mass attendance.

    Numbers could very well be up at these churches you speak of, but you don't know for sure. They could also be down, again, you do not know unless you have been measuring attendance numbers for some years now, which I am going to assume you have not.

    So it's neither evidence nor fact, but opinion.

    Mass attendance has been in decline since the 80s, that's a fact, as is adherence to the tenets of Catholicism even amongst those who do identify as Catholics. Maybe these will rise again in the future, you could be right, but the long term decline as the generation who are currently in their 50s or older start to die off is hardly likely to be made up by some younger devotees coming along.


  • #821
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    the ET system isnt a faith based learning. the kids learn about world religions, the different beliefs involved and the history. they dont say prayers or any of that bs.. and they are very easily excused from it if parents so wish.

    Yes, it's better than a Catholic school, but I would prefer if they didn't waste 10% of every day on this guff. It isn't worth 10 seconds: "People believe all kinds of crazy crap". Next lesson.


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  • #822
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,774 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    so they pretend to be catholic to get their kids in.. just like here then. except here its because it saves time in the morning.

    There is no pretending, hard as it is for some here to believe there are an awful lot of people who want their children taught catholic ethos schools.
    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    in that sentance you could change 'catholic' to any other word and you'd probably have a law suit on your hands..

    There are jobs out there with specific requirements on nationality etc so this is no different. What business has some atheist or someone from another religion teaching in a catholic school over there, probably try to go against the values of the school and not teach religion correctly etc.


  • #823
    MRnotlob606
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭MRnotlob606


    Why don't people stop talking about religion and Irreligion


  • #824
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,774 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    MRnotlob606 wrote: »
    Why don't people stop talking about religion and Irreligion

    I never discuss religion, in fact the only people I ever hear harping on about it are the poor old atheists complaining and annoying everyone with their opinion (many have pointed out they happily bring it up just to cause arguments). I only speak on the topic to be a voice against atheists and support the way things currently are in this country (like schools etc).


  • #825
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Yes, it's better than a Catholic school, but I would prefer if they didn't waste 10% of every day on this guff. It isn't worth 10 seconds: "People believe all kinds of crazy crap". Next lesson.

    to be honest i'd disagree, i'm athiest myself but im into religious history and im interested in different belief systems.

    i'd never tell my kid what to believe in, that will be his choice whenever that day comes. he has grandparents that are deeply religious on one side and not at all on the other, religion is not a topic that any of us push on him (whether it be belief, or non belief).

    currently he chooses to believe that religion is a fairytale based around stupidity and money (his words, not mine).

    he has come to this conclusion himself because of the way they teach in ET. they give facts about what the religion is about, then let the kids make their own mind up.

    i think without the education, the decision is as ill informed as those that choose to blindly follow their 'faith'.


  • #826
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »
    What business has some atheist or someone from another religion teaching in a catholic school over there, probably try to go against the values of the school and not teach religion correctly etc.

    in the real world people are assessed on their ability to do a job, whatever their opinion on it be. if they can do the job, then their own belief system has no place in the selection process.

    but then again, we are talking about an institution that gets more upset about gay people wanting to marry, than it does about it's own pious servants raping children. they're hardly known for their open mindedness.


  • #827
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,774 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    in the real world people are assessed on their ability to do a job, whatever their opinion on it be. if they can do the job, then their own belief system has no place in the selection process.

    But as an atheist would you be willing to teach fully and enthusiastically in a religion class where you would basically be teaching the children the exact opposite of what you yourself believe?


  • #828
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    TwoShedsJackson wrote: »
    Numbers could very well be up at these churches you speak of, but you don't know for sure.

    Numbers per Mass could be up because overall numbers are down, and they have less masses, or because they don't have enough priests to have more masses.

    When I was a kid, there was 8:00, 8:45, 9:30, 10:30, 11:30, 12:30, 5 and 7 masses every Sunday. 11:30 and 12:30 were so jammed that people would be passing out.

    I just looked, and now there are 4 masses spread over Saturday and Sunday. And I was at one Saturday evening last: Changes to the layout have reduced seatling by maybe 20%, and the place was still rather empty. Most people were older than me (I'm 50), and any younger people were with an older family member.

    At a guess, I'd say total attendance is about 25% of what it was 40 years ago.


  • #829
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »
    But as an atheist would you be willing to teach fully and enthusiastically in a religion class where you would basically be teaching the children the exact opposite of what you yourself believe?

    if i had chosen a career as a teacher then yes, i expect i would have to. or lose my job, cause thats how it works.

    in my current career i have to do things that i would never choose to do myself.. but thats what a client wants. the client is the boss, if i dont do it i get fired, cause thats how it works.


  • #830
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    to be honest i'd disagree, i'm athiest myself but im into religious history and im interested in different belief systems

    Well, great, but I'd prefer if Primary school made sure kids can read, write and do arithmetic, do some languages, science, history and geography. You know, the reality based bits of the curriculum.

    Learning about World Religions could safely be left as a college course for interested adults, not given to 10 year olds who need remedial reading.


  • #831
    Wurzelbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,804 ✭✭✭Wurzelbert


    the thing i found with atheists i have met is that many of them seem to think they are very smart and above-average intelligent, compared to all us dull catholics and all the non-enlightened rest as they would see it...that can be a tad annoying...


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  • #832
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Well, great, but I'd prefer if Primary school made sure kids can read, write and do arithmetic, do some languages, science, history and geography. You know, the reality based bits of the curriculum.

    Learning about World Religions could safely be left as a college course for interested adults, not given to 10 year olds who need remedial reading.

    look, im not saying it should be a big part of the school system. 1 hour per week max is enough. 30 minutes preferably.

    my view is that education, no matter what the topic is very important for a kids development AND more importantly, to help them understand each other in this modern multi-cultural society.

    kids learn poetry and creative writing, either are rarely based in fact but they still need to educate the creative areas of the mind. i feel the way ET teach religion, it is geared towards educating the curious part of the mind.

    its like heavy drugs. should we teach our kids what they look like and what misuse can lead to? or should we pretend they dont exist?


  • #833
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,085 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »
    All the stuff in the post shouldn't change just for a small number of athiests. Remember 83% of the country are catholic, then we have other religions meaning atheists are a tiny minority.

    AH of course give the impression that there are a large number due to the number posting here but as with a lot of things AH gives a poor reflection of actual society.

    Maybe they should just stop paying tax or that part of their tax that funds what amount to public services outsourced to religious organisations and provided on a sectarian basis where admissions of a particular faith community are prioritised.

    The situation as it stands also seems to ignore various aspects of the constitution. But, sure that's grand as long as it's just not "the important bits" I guess.


  • #834
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    Wurzelbert wrote: »
    the thing i found with atheists i have met is that many of them seem to think they are very smart and above-average intelligent, compared to all us dull catholics and all the non-enlightened rest as they would see it...that can be a tad annoying...

    i dont mean to offend you by giving you this straight answer, so i really do apologise in advance :o

    but imagine you were talking to a grown adult that believed in santa. thats how we some atheists feel.

    it is horrible, its something i personally struggle with when dealing with religious friends or family. but it is what it is :o


  • #835
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,367 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    all religions eventually die out to be replaced by a newer, better, more profitable model.

    Yea Daniel Dennett has a good riff on this in some of his talks. He postulates that in one possible future Vatican City becomes the European Museum of
    Roman Catholicism, and Mecca is turned into Disney's Magic Kingdom of Allah. Pointing out examples like how the Hagia Sofia was once a church, then a mosque and now is little more than a museum or visitor center.


  • #836
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,774 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Wurzelbert wrote: »
    the thing i found with atheists i have met is that many of them seem to think they are very smart and above-average intelligent, compared to all us dull catholics and all the non-enlightened rest as they would see it...that can be a tad annoying...

    +1

    I'm educated to a far higher level than the majority of posters here yet my opinions are ridiculed like I'm an idiot.


  • #837
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »
    +1

    I'm educated to a far higher level than the majority of posters here yet my opinions are ridiculed like I'm an idiot.

    its because you've chosen a faith based belief system rather than one based on fact.

    isnt rising above the ridicule also part of a faith based belief system?

    and just to hammer a point, there is a cult (read as 'smaller religion that has no official recognition) in the US that believe in the return of a ruling alien race. would you throw ridicule and scorn at them because of their faith?


  • #838
    mrkiscool2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭mrkiscool2


    Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »
    +1

    I'm educated to a far higher level than the majority of posters here yet my opinions are ridiculed like I'm an idiot.
    Being educated, being smart and having common sense aren't all mutually inclusive. You're views do seem like you are extremely backwards about this.
    I'm an atheist but I don't go around telling random people I am an atheist or that others are wrong for believing in God(s). I just think religion is something that needs to die as it is inherently corrupt.


  • #839
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Soft Falling Rain wrote: »
    No because the keywords "god bless you" brings back results of about 1,500 pages in the A&A forum, and I'm afraid I haven't the time to look through that many pages.

    I could go deeper into how I perceive the A&A forum but this isn't the place for that.

    But thats a different thread specifically about matters specific to it. Let's stick to this thread eh?


  • #840
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,744 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    grizzly wrote: »
    Life on earth is the test for heaven. Either God will take you to heaven after the test or the devil with have you in hell.
    Except it isn't a test. If there is a god then he knows, and has known from the beginning of time, what you are going to do. Not only that but he is directing you every step of the way to fit in with his ineffable plan. It'd be like me training my dog to crap on the carpet then beating it for crapping on the carpet: I knew it was going to do it, I made sure it could do it, then I punished it for doing exactly that.

    And then people try to say it's a loving and merciful god, and I laugh and laugh and laugh.


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  • #841
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,367 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Corbin Silly Pan wrote: »
    I'm educated to a far higher level than the majority of posters here yet my opinions are ridiculed like I'm an idiot.

    And so it should be. We should respect people, not ideas. And it does not matter how educated or intelligent a person is (or claims to be, or feels they are) when they espouse a claim.... it is the CLAIM that has to be evaluated, not the person making it.

    And if we rip apart an idea and show it to be idiotic, that is purely a comment on the idea. NOT the person who holds it. If you choose, and it is a choice, to become vicariously offended on behalf of your ideas.... then so be it. But do not expect anyone else to pander to this.

    Possible the greatest mind our species has yet produced through all the vagaries of genetics.... Isaac Newton.... a man who basically invented Calculus on a dare he was that smart......... also subscribed to some fantastically nonsense ideas.

    Respect people, not ideas. Evaluate ideas, not the person espousing them and their supposed credentials. And take none of it personally.


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