Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Read Mod Warning in OP 7/1/15

Lord TSC · 12-01-2015 04:55PM

IF (big if) LVG doesn't work out, that doesn't change anything about Moyes' reign, and the revisionism that's taking place baffles me. Moyes was beyond useless, and two wrongs don't make a right.

homerjay2005 · 12-01-2015 04:58PM

Rob Thomas wrote: »

What's your basis for that? What do you think Moyes would have done differently to LVG ( apart from a flat back 4, which is a gimme), or got out of the players differently?

Genuine question.

Forget about Moyes but another manager would not keep trying to play 3 at the back with center backs who cannot pass the ball and without fit full backs.

And maybe just maybe, another manager would have replaced the center backs that left as priority as opposed to starting the season in a right mess.

We didn't sign even one top class center back despite the fact by April we knew our two main ones were leaving and the other 3 were injury proned.

We signed Rojo, a player who can play there but is not amongest the top level center backs in the world, but he wasn't able to play until mid September - either Woodward or LVG is to blame there, it was inexcusible that it took 5 months to sign a center back.

bullvine · 12-01-2015 05:02PM

Correct me if I am wrong but the thing that strikes me the most about United this season is that they have failed to win a game from a losing position?

Timmyctc · 12-01-2015 05:02PM

Lord TSC wrote: »

IF (big if) LVG doesn't work out, that doesn't change anything about Moyes' reign, and the revisionism that's taking place baffles me. Moyes was beyond useless, and two wrongs don't make a right.

But if van Gaal were to fail to get top four this year, was given another year and managed to turn things around then, would you, or anyones, opinion on Moyes' reign soften? I mean, very little is better this year over last year. We've played somewhat better sometimes but having brought in the likes of Di Maria, Falcao and Shaw you'd be expecting that. Granted we are in a higher position than this time last year but after recent performances and results top 4 is looking less and less likely.

Trond · 12-01-2015 05:03PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Forget about Moyes but another manager would not keep trying to play 3 at the back with center backs who cannot pass the ball and without fit full backs.

And maybe just maybe, another manager would have replaced the center backs that left as priority as opposed to starting the season in a right mess.

No top class manager would have even attempted that.

Think about it for a second..... Jones, Smalling and Evans to be replaced after losing Ferdinand, Vidic and Evra.

6 defenders gone in that amount of time? that will simply never happen at any top club.

homerjay2005 · 12-01-2015 05:06PM

Trond wrote: »

No top class manager would have even attempted that.

Think about it for a second..... Jones, Smalling and Evans to be replaced after losing Ferdinand, Vidic and Evra.

6 defenders gone in that amount of time? that will simply never happen at any top club.

I think you have completely misread my post. I never said we needed to remove 6 players. I said we needed to replace vidic and Rio quickly.

3 at the back is not working with these players.

Trond · 12-01-2015 05:22PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

I think you have completely misread my post. I never said we needed to remove 6 players. I said we needed to replace vidic and Rio quickly.

3 at the back is not working with these players.

Ah ok! hahah I was thinking that was a bit mad!!!

Agree completely. In retrospect keeping Vidic might not have been the worst idea. I know he was crap last season but a leader is a leader and its something we still so sorely lack back there.

SlickRic · 12-01-2015 05:25PM

IMO, a big problem with Utd yesterday is the same as a problem us Liverpool fans have been moaning about with regards our team, and the same one Utd fans are specifically moaning about on here.

play players in their correct positions, and you'll be surprised what can happen. it's not rocket science, and I think managers sometimes try to be too clever.

Gerrard is not a DM unless there's a very specific set of circumstances that allow him to do it (2 players to do his running either side of him, and 2 world class forwards ahead of him to help stretch the game; giving him time to pick his passes).

Rooney is not a midfielder, and is probably your best striker.

di Maria is not a striker, and is your best wing forward.

Shaw and Valencia are not wing backs. One's a left back, and one is a right winger who can kind of, sort of, if he has a good day, be a right back.

Rodgers has had it in his head that Gerrard is a DM of the ilk of Pirlo. pure stubborness.

LVG seems to have it in his head that this formation is the way forward, that Rooney is a CM, that Shaw and Valencia are wing backs etc etc etc, and his stubborness is stifling the team. it was staggering to watch the lack of fluidity and instinct in the play yesterday. Southampton were excellent, but they didn't have to be brilliant, just really disciplined.

IMO, he needs to let go of his idea of what certain players could be, and just play them in positions that they've won medals, cups and titles in.

homerjay2005 · 12-01-2015 05:29PM

50 long balls yesterday out of defence, which resulted in direct loss of possession on 23 occasions. out of those 27 that found a United player, am sure there were many of them that actually ended up being flicked on directly to a Southampton player.

abysmal stuff!

bullvine wrote: »

The only improvement that Van Gaal has over Moyes is the teams performances in the so called big games.

yep, apart from that, the only on pitch improvement is De Gea and that probably is down to Frans Hoek.

off the pitch, there is more calm about the club, opposition perhaps have a fear factor back now when coming to Old Trafford and LVG isnt making a fool of himself everytime he talks in public. the players respect him and we have a very god backroom team.

but all that is relative to the results and standard of football and ultimately for all the money spent and confidence supposedly back in the team, LVG has done a poor job when it comes to match day,so far.

hopefully yesterday is the eye opener for him finally.

brinty · 12-01-2015 05:31PM

My holy mother of god,

One defeat and suddenly LVG is being compared to Moyes... is this what it's come down too.....

For christ sake people, Moyes was so badly it was unbelievable and the further the season progressed the worse things got. And he never looked like he knew a way out of it. Kept saying we'll "try" and do better the next time.

I've 2000% more faith in LVG. The man calls a spade a spade. If its not good enough he says so and does something to remedy it. Don't forget he brought Blind and Di maria in for their first starts yesterday in about 6 weeks. He's never had a settled team yet to try and show his full hand.

One defeat does not a season ruin no more than one victory does not a season make. We'll have to suffer some bad days before the great days return. Have some faith..

The Csar of Aalkmar will bring us back to glory

Trond · 12-01-2015 05:38PM

SlickRic wrote: »

IMO, a big problem with Utd yesterday is the same as a problem us Liverpool fans have been moaning about with regards our team, and the same one Utd fans are specifically moaning about on here.

play players in their correct positions, and you'll be surprised what can happen. it's not rocket science, and I think managers sometimes try to be too clever.

Gerrard is not a DM unless there's a very specific set of circumstances that allow him to do it (2 players to do his running either side of him, and 2 world class forwards ahead of him to help stretch the game; giving him time to pick his passes).

Rooney is not a midfielder, and is probably your best striker.

di Maria is not a striker, and is your best wing forward.

Shaw and Valencia are not wing backs. One's a left back, and one is a right winger who can kind of, sort of, if he has a good day, be a right back.

Rodgers has had it in his head that Gerrard is a DM of the ilk of Pirlo. pure stubborness.

LVG seems to have it in his head that this formation is the way forward, that Rooney is a CM, that Shaw and Valencia are wing backs etc etc etc, and his stubborness is stifling the team. it was staggering to watch the lack of fluidity and instinct in the play yesterday. Southampton were excellent, but they didn't have to be brilliant, just really disciplined.

IMO, he needs to let go of his idea of what certain players could be, and just play them in positions that they've won medals, cups and titles in.

Agree with all of that.

Ive said for a while now I don't see us playing the 352 long term. I think its high time he trusts the midfielders we have and go with 433 or something similar.

I think he wants a player of Strootmans ilk in there before he commits to it but enough is enough at this stage. With Carrick, Blind and Herrera all fit surely its time to see what they can do in his preferred system.

newballsplease · 12-01-2015 05:40PM

brinty wrote: »

Don't forget he brought Blind and Di maria in for their first starts yesterday in about 6 weeks.

Yes and played both out of position. Yesterdays performance from the management team was very poor. No hiding away from that.

brinty · 12-01-2015 05:47PM

Lads here's a question...
anyone think Herrera is the second coming of Shinji/Berba/Bebe and will be sold before he's proven himself? he seems to have something about him but he's not been given a consistent chance to prove what he can do thus far

Lord TSC · 12-01-2015 05:52PM

Timmyctc wrote: »

But if van Gaal were to fail to get top four this year, was given another year and managed to turn things around then, would you, or anyones, opinion on Moyes' reign soften?

No. Moyes was a disaster, and nothing will change that. How LVG does or doesn't do has no bearings on Moyes' dreadful team selections, tactics, man management or media handling. The two will (IF it happens) have done two jobs independently of each other, and nothing will change the fact Moyes had a massively cushy ride for the most part, had what was close to a "job for life" and still got the sack.

scudzilla · 12-01-2015 05:53PM

Let's do a Lampard and get Gerrard on loan next season, just for the lols

Quandary · 12-01-2015 06:03PM

LVG has had the vast majority of his success with 4-3-3. I would love to see him just commit to 4-3-3 and let the team grow into it, even if it meant we were conceding a few goals in the early stages.

I firmly believe we could be devastating if the players are played in their strongest positions. I wouldn't mind seeing a midfield trio of di Maria, Carrick and One of Blind/Herrera depending on how attacking we will be playing.

If he doesn't trust the centre halves we have then just buy one to partner Rojo.

What happened yesterday was an embarrassment that simply cannot be allowed to happen again. Dropping three points to our closest league table rivals in our own back yard is as bad as it gets.

Rob Thomas · 12-01-2015 06:16PM

brinty wrote: »

Lads here's a question...
anyone think Herrera is the second coming of Shinji/Berba/Bebe and will be sold before he's proven himself? he seems to have something about him but he's not been given a consistent chance to prove what he can do thus far

I agree Herrera should be given a chance, looks like a decent prospect but I don't get the comparison with The other guys.

Bebe was clearly a mistake and not at the level required and would never get to that level. Berba wasn't suited to our style of play and slowed things down too much. His scoring ratio was not good enough either.

Kagawa was given plenty of chances and while his potential was undoubted when he arrived and he was a great player in Germany, he was completely unsuited to the PL. I think, to be fair, of anyone, he got more than his fair share of chances.

Discodog · 12-01-2015 06:20PM

Trilla wrote: »

I'd like to know where you got this info from?

The Club

http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-Features/Football-News/2014/Sep/ryan-giggs-revealed-to-have-role-in-presenting-opposition-information-to-the-players.aspx

Nalz · 12-01-2015 06:29PM

Discodog wrote: »

The Club

http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-Features/Football-News/2014/Sep/ryan-giggs-revealed-to-have-role-in-presenting-opposition-information-to-the-players.aspx

Cheers

This is very embarrassing after the fact

""I always prepare for matches very thoroughly," added the boss. "I have four books about the games Leicester have played already, including the one they lost against a smaller club [Shrewsbury in the Capital One Cup]. I know everything about the team, about their individual players, about the subs who can come into the game, even the atmosphere in the stadium and how they kick the first kick of the match. Everything."

homerjay2005 · 12-01-2015 06:36PM

brinty wrote: »

Lads here's a question...
anyone think Herrera is the second coming of Shinji/Berba/Bebe and will be sold before he's proven himself? he seems to have something about him but he's not been given a consistent chance to prove what he can do thus far

during the summer i posted here that i believed that Shaw and Herrera were panic signings or perhaps "forced" on LVG, forced perhaps is not the best word so ill explain it better.

Shaw and Herrera were both signed, in the space of 2 days but more crucially, just 4 or 5 days before the financial year closed on June 30th. my theory is that LVG was told something along the lines of "theres a chunk of money that is available to be spent but it needs to be spent before June30th, so that it can be balanced off against this seasons accounts, either use it or lose it"(perhaps for FFP reasons or whatever).

now it could of course be pure coincidence that we signed them so close to EOY closure and then we didnt sign another player for 7 weeks and it was all done so quickly....anything is possible.

LVG was away at the world cup and hadnt assessed the squad as he was saying, but he would have been briefed that LB and creative midfielder were needed. Shaw and herrera were available, work done for up to 12 months and once release fees were triggered, the deals could have been done. LVG agreed and had final say, but the players perhaps were not his first choice or he would have rather signed his own players, in August like Rojo, Blind and Di Maria.

while of course cost of fees are spread across the players contracts,thats purely for accounting purposes and its not as simple as that in terms of FFP and actually cash transactions as the herrera deal woulx have been.

Shaw and Herrera could and i am sure will turn out to be good players for us, but at the moment even taking into consideration their injuries, they dont look like they are players who LVG would be 100% sure of - completely different players to his Dutch side and his other signings for us.

12-01-2015 06:38PM

Rob Thomas wrote: »

Kagawa was given plenty of chances and while his potential was undoubted when he arrived and he was a great player in Germany, he was completely unsuited to the PL. I think, to be fair, of anyone, he got more than his fair share of chances.

All those games last season where he was United's best player over players who were "suited" to the PL must have been strange to watch then.

homerjay2005 · 12-01-2015 06:41PM

Quandary wrote: »

LVG has had the vast majority of his success with 4-3-3. I would love to see him just commit to 4-3-3 and let the team grow into it, even if it meant we were conceding a few goals in the early stages.

I firmly believe we could be devastating if the players are played in their strongest positions. I wouldn't mind seeing a midfield trio of di Maria, Carrick and One of Blind/Herrera depending on how attacking we will be playing.

If he doesn't trust the centre halves we have then just buy one to partner Rojo.

What happened yesterday was an embarrassment that simply cannot be allowed to happen again. Dropping three points to our closest league table rivals in our own back yard is as bad as it gets.

this is perhaps the best post ive seen since the game yesterday, sums up everything perfectly.

nobody is suggesting that Moyes is better than LVG (so i wish people would stop saying this) but what people are saying is that LVGs football, tactics and set up so far is the same as what Moyes offered and that is not good enough.