CAF MK4 in Dire need of refurbishment

Losty Dublin · 07-01-2015 02:09PM

lucernarian wrote: »

From around Newbridge I think to Portarlington I found the train ride to be shockingly bumpy. .

That section is forever bumpy

lucernarian · 07-01-2015 02:20PM

Losty Dublin wrote: »

That section is forever bumpy

When I took a 22K to Cork back in March I didn't notice it as much but then that could be because I was distracted. Not much to go on, I know:P

Markcheese · 07-01-2015 02:43PM

corktina wrote: »

but forward facing seats only work 50% of the time, unlike aircraft

:-) Ok - I meant non facing seats, yes 50% of all seating arrangements are facing the wrong way at some stage with a push pull system - unless you have moveable seat backs -

Captain Chaos · 07-01-2015 03:19PM

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The issues in relation to their ride quality here owe a lot to some sections of the Per Way and line speeds. As line speeds increased and PW teams sort out some soft spots, their performances have improved a lot.

The fact the DD stock, Mk3s and 22ks don't have these issues at speed suggest that's it's the design of the Mk4 bogies with Irish track that's the problem rather than purely our track standard. It's clear form day one that the Mk4s were not built optomized for Irish standard track.

The fact that even after bogie modifications carried out by CAF at Connolly that IE had to run further test trains years later involving halg Mk3 and half Mk4 stock run together shows there are still issues and at this stage most likely won't be solved.

end of the road · 07-01-2015 03:24PM

SeanW wrote: »

Mother of jaysus >_< "premier" my ass. They're just the same as Standard seats except for the (faux) leather covering and the gammy lamp ...

ah no the old bench type seats in the craven and mark 2 stock were pure luxury.

SpaceTime · 07-01-2015 03:31PM

All I know is I was on a CAF high speed (although not AVE) train from Madrid to Pamplona. It was very smooth on AVE (high speed track) running at 250km/h then it did a gauge switch and went on 160 km/h lines with close to Irish gauge and the ride was pretty poor. My coffee was stirring itself due to the vibrations and jolts.

I think they've suspension like a sports car. You can feel every bump.

Hyundai/Totem/Tokyu Car clearly designed the 22000s with much more suitable suspension systems. BREL would have designed the MK3 for variably quality 1970s/80s British track and I assume De Dietrich used similar suspensions to those used on French slow services like Corrail / Intercites or TER services that would run on much older, slower lines.

I'm sorry to say it, but I think the MK4 was a big error. A few extra sets of 22000s with proper CityGold cars would be much better.

end of the road · 07-01-2015 03:54PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

A few extra sets of 22000s with proper CityGold cars would be much better.

well, even with the mark 4s we don't have enough, we could still do with more sets. not going to happen though

SpaceTime · 07-01-2015 06:37PM

Ideally, something like a 22000 with 200km/h capabilities and a full CityGold or Enterprise 1st Plus type coach and dining facilities would be a great idea.

Money isn't going to allow it, but it'd be a far better option than either the existing MK4 or De Dietrich fleets.

Although the next best alternative would be power cars for the MK4 and the Enterprise. I wonder if that could be done as a single tender?
I don't see any reason why a single design of power car couldn't be used on both, even if it went a bit slower on the Belfast services. Just style it on the MK4 DVT. It would look very nice leading the Enterprise too.

I wonder though if something could be done to soften the suspension on the MK4 a bit more. It's not terrible, but it's definitely not soft enough. I know the Enterprise trains had some major issues with ride at one stage too.

corktina · 07-01-2015 06:45PM

If money were to be spent on it, I wouldn't go for 22000. Underfloor engines aren't ideal, so two power cars and trailer cars would be best

Losty Dublin · 07-01-2015 07:06PM

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The fact the DD stock, Mk3s and 22ks don't have these issues at speed suggest that's it's the design of the Mk4 bogies with Irish track that's the problem rather than purely our track standard. It's clear form day one that the Mk4s were not built optomized for Irish standard track.

True but they are different beasts and ordered to slightly different specs. As far as things go, the 22000's are definitely showing their worth compared to them and yes, I'd consider them to be superior to the Mark 4's

Jamie2k9 · 07-01-2015 11:26PM

Losty Dublin wrote: »

True but they are different beasts and ordered to slightly different specs. As far as things go, the 22000's are definitely showing their worth compared to them and yes, I'd consider them to be superior to the Mark 4's

TBH the 22s are able to absorb a lot of movement especially on non recent track upgrades and even joined track they do really well.

The Mark 4s were designed for running on Spanish tracks. They do well on the Cork route bar Hazelhatch-Portarlington and Portlaoise-Thurles and Mallow-Cork but as line renewal continues they will improve.

As for new stock, it's most likely that it will be electrified stock.

If money were to be spent on it, I wouldn't go for 22000. Underfloor engines aren't ideal, so two power cars and trailer cars would be best

It's becoming more common and I can't see anything other than DMU's and it's not such a bad thing once the right stock is got.

roundymac · 08-01-2015 12:11PM

corktina wrote: »

If money were to be spent on it, I wouldn't go for 22000. Underfloor engines aren't ideal, so two power cars and trailer cars would be best

Why spend money on it if it ain't broken?

corktina · 08-01-2015 12:39PM

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

TBH the 22s are able to absorb a lot of movement especially on non recent track upgrades and even joined track they do really well.

The Mark 4s were designed for running on Spanish tracks. They do well on the Cork route bar Hazelhatch-Portarlington and Portlaoise-Thurles and Mallow-Cork but as line renewal continues they will improve.

As for new stock, it's most likely that it will be electrified stock.

It's becoming more common and I can't see anything other than DMU's and it's not such a bad thing once the right stock is got.

make your mind up...electrified or DMU (Non-Irish term)?

SpaceTime · 08-01-2015 01:46PM

Highly unlikely but, just put electric power cars on the MK4 and DD Enterprise...

The wiring might be a bit pricey tho.

BoatMad · 08-01-2015 03:01PM

end of the road wrote: »

well, even with the mark 4s we don't have enough, we could still do with more sets. not going to happen though

no problem, IR can just refurbish all that nice running Mk3 stock... oh wait a minute ...

end of the road · 08-01-2015 03:50PM

BoatMad wrote: »

no problem, IR can just refurbish all that nice running Mk3 stock... oh wait a minute ...

shhhhhhhhhhhh. were supposed to forget about such waste, pretend it never happened and that IE can do no wrong

SpaceTime · 08-01-2015 04:16PM

BoatMad wrote: »

no problem, IR can just refurbish all that nice running Mk3 stock... oh wait a minute ...

Yeah! You meant to say:
Those ancient old crocks from the olden days that were falling apart, rusty and absolutely beyond any hope of repair or refurbishment that we will never mention again!

Sure they were the wrong colour orange and everything, can you imagine the difficulty involved in getting all that off?! The undercoat alone would have cost billions.
Far easier to just buy new ones.

Also, no railway company anywhere in the world has ever successfully refitted or refurbished trains that old

end of the road · 08-01-2015 04:24PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

Yeah! You meant to say:
Those ancient old crocks from the olden days that were falling apart, rusty and absolutely beyond any hope of repair or refurbishment that we will never mention again!

Sure they were the wrong colour orange and everything, can you imagine the difficulty involved in getting all that off?! The undercoat alone would have cost billions.
Far easier to just buy new ones.

Also, no railway company anywhere in the world has ever successfully refitted or refurbished trains that old

god i know. shur in the UK they throw away their trains after a week. oh, wait, sorry, i meant, oh well, never mind

BoatMad · 08-01-2015 04:31PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

Yeah! You meant to say:
Those ancient old crocks from the olden days that were falling apart, rusty and absolutely beyond any hope of repair or refurbishment that we will never mention again!

Sure they were the wrong colour orange and everything, can you imagine the difficulty involved in getting all that off?! The undercoat alone would have cost billions.
Far easier to just buy new ones.

Also, no railway company anywhere in the world has ever successfully refitted or refurbished trains that old

agh now I see who wrote the capex justification , you're good !

corktina · 08-01-2015 04:47PM

end of the road wrote: »

god i know. shur in the UK they throw away their trains after a week. oh, wait, sorry, i meant, oh well, never mind

well I travelled on a lovely train, brand new it was, in the UK just before xmas. I enquired and apparently they are called "HSTs"

end of the road · 08-01-2015 05:57PM

corktina wrote: »

well I travelled on a lovely train, brand new it was, in the UK just before xmas. I enquired and apparently they are called "HSTs"

ah begorra, your not serious? i never heard the like before to be sure to be sure

Chemical Byrne · 09-01-2015 12:14PM

n97 mini wrote: »

Is it real leather or is it PU? The latter is very common these days.

I took a train to Cork a while back and agree with the OP. They're fairly tatty and the blue tinted windows give them an 80s look.

I thought the blue tint looked well and modern.
Brown tint is 80's imo.

Chemical Byrne · 09-01-2015 12:23PM

Losty Dublin wrote: »

True but they are different beasts and ordered to slightly different specs. As far as things go, the 22000's are definitely showing their worth compared to them and yes, I'd consider them to be superior to the Mark 4's

That indictment says it all really for how bad the Mk IV are. Hauled stock are generally considered superior for ride quality and comfort than MUs, yet most people seem to prefer the 22k's over the Mk IV.

SpaceTime · 09-01-2015 02:18PM

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

That indictment says it all really for how bad the Mk IV are. Hauled stock are generally considered superior for ride quality and comfort than MUs, yet most people seem to prefer the 22k's over the Mk IV.

That and the 22ks are unusually good! Credit where credit's due : Hyundai, Tokyu Car and the consortium that built them did a really excellent job.

I wonder if they could retrofit the same bogies to the MK4 eventually? They seem very very good.

BoatMad · 09-01-2015 02:22PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

That and the 22ks are unusually good! Credit where credit's due : Hyundai, Tokyu Car and the consortium that built them did a really excellent job.

I wonder if they could retrofit the same bogies to the MK4 eventually? They seem very very good.

loads of mkiii bogies knocking around now !!!, they were arguably better then the 22K, rated upto 125mph too

end of the road · 09-01-2015 04:54PM

BoatMad wrote: »

loads of mkiii bogies knocking around now !!!, they were arguably better then the 22K, rated upto 125mph too

i thought they were scrapped along with the carriges?

SpaceTime · 09-01-2015 05:07PM

Probably went over them with sledge hammers just to be sure!

h.gricer · 09-01-2015 09:27PM

BoatMad wrote: »

loads of mkiii bogies knocking around now !!!, they were arguably better then the 22K, rated upto 125mph too

I often wonder the results of the MK 7 train that ran with 234 on Wednesday 17th June 2009, yes a MK 7, total 8 coaches, 4 MK4s 4 MK3s to compare ride quailty, http://www.thewandererphotos.com/2009photos/June-2009/i-4WKSvL2/A

Regards
h.gricer

Losty Dublin · 09-01-2015 09:36PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

That and the 22ks are unusually good! Credit where credit's due : Hyundai, Tokyu Car and the consortium that built them did a really excellent job..

That's more to do with it than anything; they are a cracking vehicle. To be fair to Irish Rail most of their DMU's have been excellent buys; the 2600 are not close to looking to retirement while their sister of the 2800 class are hard workers as well. The Green Goddesses AKA 29000 are also proving their worth and then some and while their internals aren't suited to long haul trips, their mechanics beg to differ.

As for the 2700, well don't write them off just yet

roundymac · 09-01-2015 09:51PM

[QUOTE=Losty Dublin;937670

As for the 2700, well don't write them off just yet

[/QUOTE]

Gone on Losty, what have you heard?;););)

CAF MK4 in Dire need of refurbishment

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