Church vs Humanist wedding

obriendj · 02-01-2015 04:53PM #1

Hi there

Just wondering if there is any advice on how to deal with an upcoming wedding. Myself and the OH are only engaged a few weeks but this has become an issue

I am sure this that this has been discussed before when people cant decide how to resolve this conflict.

My OH always wanted to get married in a church when she was growing up. I presume this was down to a fairy tale wedding. But since we got together she has known that I am not religious so she got used to the idea that a church wedding was unlikely.

But since the recent engagement her mother has been asking her what her plan is, she was told that we haven't decided, but started an argument with her over it. Telling her that Civil Ceremonies are not correct. She hasn't been to a humanist wedding so considers them the same.

She told me what happened later and my OH got upset and I agreed that I should give in and allow the ceremony to take place in one of 2 churches. One close to her home and one close to her grannies and not have a full mass. But this limits where we can have the reception.

My reasoning for having a humanist would be the following
- I am not religious - its not just the catholic church, i dont believe in spiritual world - i could be wrong but that is what i think.
- I find sitting at a church wedding for 90 mins is not something i want to do or want my guests to go through. The day is dragged out enough with out the extra 2 hours - if you want to go to mass go on Sunday.
- I don't go to Mass neither does she. I don't want to be a hypocrite. There is an argument that loads of other couples get married in a church who are not religious. I don't care what anyone else does, this is our day and our choice.
- I am angry at her mother for this. My family wouldn't care if I was getting married in a drive thru chapel in Vegas they would still be there for me. I now worry that every decision that we make might have to get the in laws approval.

After I had agreed, she was delighted but woke up thinking I have done the wrong thing. I do need to talk to the OH and perhaps her mother but she won't change her mind, (because what would the neighbours say...)

But I am wondering should I dig my feet in or to just let it go. Any one in a similar boat?

Thanks

December2012 · 02-01-2015 05:06PM

Talk to your fiancé now and tell her that you have changed your mind. You can work out the details later but tell her now so nobody gets carried away.

Harika · 02-01-2015 06:13PM

Me and my fiancee were in the same situation, with small differences like that she never would have agreed to a humanist wedding. Anyway, I decided to agree to the church wedding with her for several reasons.

- First, it is her dream, maybe even every woman's dream of a fairy tale wedding, who am I to deny her this?
- Her parents are heavily catholic and also for them it is very important, I have a very good relationship with them even as they know I am an atheist, although I am quite sure that they think it is just a "phase"

So does my stubbornness damage this relationship, for what?
- Sitting 90 minutes in a church does also not sound to appealing to me, but at the end, I can phase out for 90 minutes while she can have these memories until the end of her life

Sure you can run with your head in front through the wall but what do you gain from it? A ****ty argument for a small ceremony.
But be prepared for several things in future, first of all baptizing of your children will come up sooner than later. There you will defo have the same head to head again.
If you decide to go ahead: When then talking with the priest, be aware that those can be very demanding, like that they want to see you in church each Sunday. I heard horror stories, that the priest threatened couples, if they don't come to church, the church wedding is off. Depending on how liberal or conservative the priests are, they might wave you through or again become a pain in the ass.
Be prepared for the pre-marriage course, this is far more worrying than the church, paying 200 Euros to loose 1 1/2 day of your life for nothing. (Funny story of mine where the complaint is still running, when this has resulted in some conclusion I might post the whole story here, still undecided which forum is the right one MOD?) Again here the priest can let you out of this or you have to go.
And marrying in a Chapel in Vegas, sounds for me cool. :cool:
Anyway discuss this with her asap and religion in general how you want to proceed in future, cause her parents will defo ask for baptism and so on.

stinkle · 02-01-2015 08:37PM

We were kinda similar, although both of us were adamant we wouldn't have a religious wedding from the start. Like yourself, not a protest vote or anything, just not our cup of tea. My family were grand about it but we did get some flak for it from elsewhere, and it was "a big deal" which really was upsetting as all we were saying no to was swearing solemn vows to a deity we dont believe in, and refusing to be hypocrites and start married life with a day of lies. Your situation seems a bit more awkward as you say she was into a church wedding for years, and it must be tough if her mam is on her case now.

It's a difficult one, but not impossible. You make a good point that having ceremony in a church narrows down reception options. There are many venues with lovely spaces to have civil and humanist ceremonies, and some have deconsecrated church buildings (Brook Lodge springs to mind) which might be a compromise - there's the churchy sense of occasion without religious obligation! Don't forget that humanists are able to conduct outdoor ceremonies now too. The travel time from church to reception was something I'd never considered one way or another till after our own (humanist) wedding this year - it was really great to have everyone in the one location, we just nipped off for a bit for photos and the entire day ran smoothly cos there was nowhere for anyone to get lost/get delayed in pub etc. Short ceremony followed by champagne as soon as our guests stepped out of the room was a recipe for a very relaxed and fun day. So logistics alone could influence a nice compromise.

As regards more serious stuff, if it's a Catholic wedding that you opt for, there are long term effects of this, such as promising to bring up any children as Catholic. That's a promise you make to the Church, but it also means that people will understandably assume Catholic wedding=baptising any kids. In our experience, if we end up having kids then no one will be a bit surprised when we don't have a baptism. The precedent is now set, we've shown that we won't bow to guiltripping from extended family now or in the future, and the world didnt end.

The pre-marriage course sounds like a pain in the neck too, and you do hear stories of some priests being very difficult. You also hear of lovely understanding ones too though. As the bride, I was flipping delighted in the run up to our wedding that we didnt have to bother with choosing prayers/readings/hymns that are meaningless to us, nor did we have to pay altar boys/organists etc. I don't know much about this but not having to get letters of freedom from other parishes was one less headache too (OH moved around A LOT, and never so much as went near a church in recent years anyway! I'd have gone mad if we'd needed to to contact places he lived in as an adult).

eviltwin · 02-01-2015 09:00PM

Its a tough situation to be in. I personally don't get the whole keeping the parents happy bit but its your choice and I respect that. I had a lot of hassle over my civil marriage but I stuck to my guns. I could have done the church thing but it wouldn't have been me. You do need to talk about this and sort it out because if your future MIL is that kind of person what else will she insist on? Will she insist on adding people to the guest list and other aspects of the day? What about when you have kids? You don't want to start your married life with an overbearing mother in law.

lazygal · 02-01-2015 11:03PM

We had a humanist ceremony. There would be no circumstances in which we'd agree to a church wedding and make promises in a ceremony we didn't believe in, regardless of any fuss from our parents. This has set the boundaries for us as a family, especially now we have children and aren't raising them in any faith.
I would think long and hard about letting your parents dictate your wedding.

Arbiter of Good Taste · 02-01-2015 11:05PM

I was at a wedding in a church recently that wasn't a full Catholic Mass. It was carried out by a priest and there were the prayers and readings and vows, but no consecration or communion. The entire ceremony lasted 30 minutes.

Perhaps something like that might be a reasonable compromise?

To Elland Back · 02-01-2015 11:09PM

You answered your own question. Your partner wants the show but not the religious part, your task is to make her see that.

athtrasna · 02-01-2015 11:12PM

I feel your pain OP but from the other side. I was the bride. In the end I agreed to a church wedding far from my home town but I always referred to it as the wedding I didn't want for the marriage I did. It was a great day but I felt like a sell out like I wasn't being true to myself. We've since separated, largely because in time being true to myself became more and more important

Boom__Boom · 02-01-2015 11:19PM

Tell the mother-in-law you're not happy giving any money to the Catholic Church because of their treatment of the victims of abuse.

rainbow kirby · 02-01-2015 11:21PM

There wasn't a snowball's chance in hell I was agreeing to a church wedding. I was never the girl who grew up with dreams of the big church wedding and I do not want the RCC playing any part in my life. We looked at civil, humanist, spiritualist and Unitarian ceremonies, and we ended up choosing to have a humanist ceremony in the hotel where we're having the reception. If we'd chosen a London wedding rather than Limerick, we probably would have had our ceremony in the Unitarian chapel in Hampstead, it's a lovely 17th century building and would make a really nice setting.

obriendj · 03-01-2015 08:05PM

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

I was at a wedding in a church recently that wasn't a full Catholic Mass. It was carried out by a priest and there were the prayers and readings and vows, but no consecration or communion. The entire ceremony lasted 30 minutes.

Perhaps something like that might be a reasonable compromise?

Thanks for this. I have been to a wedding before that was led by a Deacon. It removed the Mass bit from the ceremony.

obriendj · 03-01-2015 08:09PM

Harika wrote: »

Me and my fiancee were in the same situation, with small differences like that she never would have agreed to a humanist wedding. Anyway, I decided to agree to the church wedding with her for several reasons.

- First, it is her dream, maybe even every woman's dream of a fairy tale wedding, who am I to deny her this?
- Her parents are heavily catholic and also for them it is very important, I have a very good relationship with them even as they know I am an atheist, although I am quite sure that they think it is just a "phase" So does my stubbornness damage this relationship, for what?
- Sitting 90 minutes in a church does also not sound to appealing to me, but at the end, I can phase out for 90 minutes while she can have these memories until the end of her life

Sure you can run with your head in front through the wall but what do you gain from it? A ****ty argument for a small ceremony.
But be prepared for several things in future, first of all baptizing of your children will come up sooner than later. There you will defo have the same head to head again.
If you decide to go ahead: When then talking with the priest, be aware that those can be very demanding, like that they want to see you in church each Sunday. I heard horror stories, that the priest threatened couples, if they don't come to church, the church wedding is off. Depending on how liberal or conservative the priests are, they might wave you through or again become a pain in the ass.
Be prepared for the pre-marriage course, this is far more worrying than the church, paying 200 Euros to loose 1 1/2 day of your life for nothing. (Funny story of mine where the complaint is still running, when this has resulted in some conclusion I might post the whole story here, still undecided which forum is the right one MOD?) Again here the priest can let you out of this or you have to go.
And marrying in a Chapel in Vegas, sounds for me cool. :cool:
Anyway discuss this with her asap and religion in general how you want to proceed in future, cause her parents will defo ask for baptism and so on.

You are dead right, not much point having an argument over a quick ceremony.

And looking forward to the baptism argument in the future too. But unfortunately Irish schools require for a catholic baptised child. I think its wrong that the church still has a stranglehold on the education system but thats another forum.

And sure if the Wedding is not in Vegas perhaps the stag do might be...

obriendj · 03-01-2015 08:11PM

But thanks for the input
Its a great help

I probably knew that I would have to go for the church wedding. And wanted to vent and see if i was being unreasonable. and like some have said I hope that the input from MIL will be limited once a venue is agreed.

Thanks again.

December2012 · 03-01-2015 08:13PM

[quote="obriendj;93670734". But unfortunately Irish schools require for a catholic baptised child...[/quote]

That's not true. Look at the Community National Schools and the Educate Together schools. Neither require baptism nor teach under a religious doctrine.

fits · 03-01-2015 08:39PM

We went with a humanist ceremony after much thought and soul searching. Did not get on with local priest and would have to jump through hoops to get one elsewhere, and we dont practice. Parents were upset at first but they've come around although still dubious. I wouldnt really have cared so much as they are legal solemnizers. The schools thing boils my piss though.

fits · 03-01-2015 08:39PM

December2012 wrote: »

That's not true. Look at the Community National Schools and the Educate Together schools. Neither require baptism nor teach under a religious doctrine.

Not available everywhere unfortunately.

lazygal · 03-01-2015 10:25PM

December2012 wrote: »

That's not true. Look at the Community National Schools and the Educate Together schools. Neither require baptism nor teach under a religious doctrine.

It depends on the school and area. I know of schools where everyone in the area got in regardless of baptism. I certainly wouldn't have a church ceremony because of baptism of children into a faith I didn't believe. I'd rather home school than lie about what religious doctrine I would impose on my children.

lazygal · 03-01-2015 10:30PM

obriendj wrote: »

You are dead right, not much point having an argument over a quick ceremony.

And looking forward to the baptism argument in the future too. But unfortunately Irish schools require for a catholic baptised child. I think its wrong that the church still has a stranglehold on the education system but thats another forum.

And sure if the Wedding is not in Vegas perhaps the stag do might be...

I think this is worth having an argument over. That's me though. I would not let my in laws dictate where and how I married my partner. They weren't getting married, we were, and as such their preferences were irrelevant.

Faith · 04-01-2015 12:27AM

We had fully intended on having a church ceremony until we started looking at churches. Seeing signs up about children protection and preventing abuse, signs about why gay marriage is a sin and signs about how abortion ruins lives reminded us that we do not support the church on pretty much every social issue. We were prepared to pretend to be Catholics for the day until we realised just how much we were not part of the Catholic church. We very quickly decided to have a humanist ceremony (albeit in a deconsecrated church, so we still get the grandeur

).

I'd agree that it's worth having an argument over. It's not a small thing. Firstly, it gives your in-laws unnecessary control over your lives, and it also opens the door for religion to control other aspects of your lives, like baptising your children.

obriendj · 04-01-2015 12:35AM

lazygal wrote: »

I think this is worth having an argument over. That's me though. I would not let my in laws dictate where and how I married my partner. They weren't getting married, we were, and as such their preferences were irrelevant.

I see where you are coming from and would agree if the OH was fully on board on having a Humanist ceremony. But following the discussion she has said she would prefer a church ceremony, I just thought that she was open to a humanist but perhaps I just thought.

I don't plan to lie to a priest and tell him that i attend mass regularly so it might not be plain sailing. (not that i see anything wrong with lying to a priest but i am proud to be a non-believer so shouldn't be ashamed)

obriendj · 04-01-2015 12:49AM

Faith wrote: »

We had fully intended on having a church ceremony until we started looking at churches. Seeing signs up about children protection and preventing abuse, signs about why gay marriage is a sin and signs about how abortion ruins lives reminded us that we do not support the church on pretty much every social issue. We were prepared to pretend to be Catholics for the day until we realised just how much we were not part of the Catholic church. We very quickly decided to have a humanist ceremony (albeit in a deconsecrated church, so we still get the grandeur ).

I can totally see where you are coming from, I don't expect this to be plain sailing regardless of what decision is made.

Faith wrote: »

I'd agree that it's worth having an argument over. It's not a small thing. Firstly, it gives your in-laws unnecessary control over your lives, and it also opens the door for religion to control other aspects of your lives, like baptising your children.

It almost feels like they are already, comments were already made about a possible venue today.

Faith · 04-01-2015 01:01AM

obriendj wrote: »

It almost feels like they are already, comments were already made about a possible venue today.

It's a slippery slope, to be honest. If you have parents or in-laws who are inclined to be controlling, the best option is to give them no say in anything that is important to you. Don't discuss venues or anything like that. Just smile and say "We're still considering our options" until something is firmly booked and unchangeable.

Of course, that only works if both you and your fiancée are on the same page. Is she happy with her parents giving their input into everything?

eviltwin · 04-01-2015 01:19AM

Op sorry if this is blunt but you are going to have to put the foot down here and together with your fiancee tell your in laws to butt out. Its ridiculous that what should be one of the most exciting times of your live is being railroaded by someone else. Its not their day, its yours, it should be a reflection of the kinds of people you are, not some carbon copy of what your mother in law wants. As I said before I can understand why you might feel its a battle not worth having but it is worth it in order to have the day you want and set the ground rules about the type of interference you are willing to accept. It won't get any easier once you are married. Don't under estimate the impact that nosy inlaws can have on your relationship. You don't need to update them on everything you are doing, its okay to keep your cards close to your chest and be vague about your plans.

obriendj · 04-01-2015 01:25AM

Faith wrote: »

It's a slippery slope, to be honest. If you have parents or in-laws who are inclined to be controlling, the best option is to give them no say in anything that is important to you. Don't discuss venues or anything like that. Just smile and say "We're still considering our options" until something is firmly booked and unchangeable.

Of course, that only works if both you and your fiancée are on the same page. Is she happy with her parents giving their input into everything?

No, the comments about the venue were not welcome.
It wasnt that she was looking for input just trying to include them and let them know how we are getting on. But we will be considering our options from now on.

Faith · 04-01-2015 01:48AM

Honestly, this is bigger than the church v humanist discussion. I think this happens to most couples a while into the engagement. You both need to sit down and discuss what level of involvement you want others to have. If you have people who are likely to try to railroad you, you need to be sure to always present a united front. Including people is all well and good, but only as long as they respect the boundaries.

lazygal · 04-01-2015 08:42AM

obriendj wrote: »

No, the comments about the venue were not welcome.
It wasnt that she was looking for input just trying to include them and let them know how we are getting on. But we will be considering our options from now on.

Including them doesn't mean letting them decide on things. I included my mum in the dress shopping and went shopping for her outfit and had a pamper day before the wedding. I included my dad in other ways. My husband did the same. Including them could mean asking them about what menu they think is best or what wines they'd recommend, after the main decisions are made. Trust me, from experience I wouldn't allow family to have the final say on anything if you're not happy. It only sets you up as doormats. There's people who give into a church wedding and then the children are being baptised against their wishes

pwurple · 04-01-2015 09:34PM

obriendj wrote: »

My reasoning for having a humanist would be the following
- I am not religious - its not just the catholic church, i dont believe in spiritual world - i could be wrong but that is what i think.

You may be uncomfortable with humanism also here... It is spiritual. Sounds like you may be leaning towards civil rather than humanist. Why not use the civil registrar rather than just a different set of spiritual beliefs to catholicism?

I find sitting at a church wedding for 90 mins is not something i want to do or want my guests to go through. The day is dragged out enough with out the extra 2 hours - if you want to go to mass go on Sunday.

My wedding cermony, with priest, took 20 minutes, and wasn't in a church. I am no fan of the split venue wedding myself, so we asked our priest to come to our reception venue.

Parents will involve themselves at some point, they are interested in you, your lives and weddings are large enough milestones in someone's life. Mine picked the guestlist to kick up a fuss about, but I think it happens to everyone. We mostly stood our ground on the guestlist, with some small compromises... two additional guests. Treat it as a negotiation, attempt keep them appeased in some way while also achieving what you would like yourself. You have a long life ahead of you with them as your family. It's a balance between being firm enough to avoid being a pushover, while also taking their feelings into account.

Faith · 04-01-2015 09:39PM

Humanism doesn't involve a spiritual aspect. You may be thinking of a spiritualist ceremony, pwurple

lazygal · 04-01-2015 09:54PM

Humanist ceremonies are secular. We had no references to spiritual things at all, as we don't have any spiritual leanings.
Eta the hse only offer Monday to Friday weddings and getting an off-site ceremony at a time that suits can be difficult. One of the reasons the humanist option is popular, especially as you've more freedom than with a civil ceremony. Possibly to appease parents a prayer could be included but it's up to you. There's no such option with the hse.

pwurple · 04-01-2015 09:58PM

obriendj wrote: »

I don't plan to lie to a priest and tell him that i attend mass regularly so it might not be plain sailing. (not that i see anything wrong with lying to a priest but i am proud to be a non-believer so shouldn't be ashamed)

The irish priest-fear is so weird!

Priests in my experience, couldn't give a rat's ass whether you attend mass or not. None of the priests I know are in any way bothered about how, when or where I attend mass, if at all. It's not an exam. They are there to provide a set of services, not interrogate you. If anyone should be doing the questioning about what is going to happen, it's you!

Church vs Humanist wedding

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