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Women's Rights in Islam - UPDATED WITH MOD INSTRUCTION IN FIRST POST
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What is your point in rehashing your former posts in another thread? Apart from showing that you never answered my question about why anyone, male or female, IF they have a medical issue, can't be given special consideration..
These points were made on this thread. Look through the posts to find them0 -
Defender OF Faith wrote: »These points were made on this thread. Look through the posts to find them
Whatever. It doesn't matter; my question still remains.0 -
You didn't just offer it as a perspective. You offered them as "reasons". Perspectives are not the same as reasons.confusedquark wrote: »I'm not here to convince you. I'm here to explain my perspective, and have largely done that.
What do you think the word "MORE" means?
It's great that women have the law to protect them, but it's not 100% protection - and prosecuting somebody after a rape is closing the gate after the horse has bolted. Whatever the level of protection they do get from the law, it's my belief that their protection will be more if they observed Hijab.
You're clutching at straws there. Affairs almost always result in family problems, and are themselves the largest cause of divorces.
That's your opinion. I disagree with it - and that goes back to the reasons why we're here on this planet in the first place and that is a whole different discussion.
Yes, I do understand what "more" means. And, as I said, I disagree. Women just express their attraction to men in a different, less straightforward way. The point is that Islam doesn't tell men to cover themselves, even though women are attracted to them as much as men are attracted to women.
No, the law won't protect anyone 100%. Neither will Islam - look at the way many Muslim men harass fully covered up women in some Islamic countries. The only real protection is individuals' maturity and mutual respect; and the law to back that up.
It's not clutching at straws to say that second relationships always cause problems. There are many situations where first relationships have run their course and both parties are ready to move on. Sometimes it causes problems, sometimes not. And, as I already pointed out, many relationships are between single people; what they do is their business alone.
It's not just my opinion, it's fact that society or religion can't legislate for people's moral behaviour. You can create a theocracy, like Saudi or Iraq, and force people to follow the diktats of a particular religion, but that is treating people like children, not responsible adults.0 -
Defender OF Faith wrote: »1)I am not avoiding the question the same you see nothing wrong with women covering their breasts while men are not, we view the Hijab.
where did I say that I see nothing wrong with women covering their breasts and not for men?
You are an expert in dodging questions, it proves my point that logic doesn't exist in Islam and Qoran must be followed whether it makes sense or not.Defender OF Faith wrote: »The Issue of the Islamic Hijab was discussed nicely by a Muslim sister below
I already stated my point about the post by the Muslim sister, not all families are the same so if you look at a good family you have to look at a bad one too, and believe me bad families outnumber good families.Defender OF Faith wrote: »If the Muslim women is powerful and wealthy that's fantastic but it remains the obligation of the man to bear the financial burden and she has the full right to support and help her husband.
Plus re-read the example I have given, whether the women is wealthy or not is not even the subject of the discussion we are looking at the financial responsibility of both sexes with regard to the issue.
Obligations but what if he can't and he doesn't? still dodging questions?
So if we are not looking at the financial responsibility then we are looking at the sex, this is sexism which means some sort of racism.Defender OF Faith wrote: »If you want to discuss this sexwise, the Man has a higher sex drive then women:
http://www.webmd.com/sex/features/sex-drive-how-do-men-women-compare
I dont need to go into further detail regarding the situation whereby a single women is being shared between 4 men who happen to have a higher sex drive then her.
Here is an article that says that woman have higher sex drive than man: http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/06/turns-out-women-have-really-really-strong-sex-drives-can-men-handle-it/276598/
I don't need to go further neither since I believe that a woman should be allowed to have several partners just like a man in Islam.Defender OF Faith wrote: »Polygamy is not explicitly forbidden in Judaism and Christianity scriptures as the bible is littered with examples of polygamy without prohibiting the practice.
Any examples?Defender OF Faith wrote: »Islam as a religion encourage monogamy more then Christianity and Judaism as it's the only scripture in the face of the earth that says "marry only one"
As you mentioned it's the law of the country that forbid and not the scripture
It was only later on that the Church had put a ban that a Christian should marry only one and in 1950 the chief rabbi passed a law that the Jews should marry only one it's not the scripture.
Can you prove it?
at least Churches and Rabbies challenged an important topic and took the right decision....in Islam there is still the possibility to marry 4 women, backward religion IMO what do you think?
I don't need to find a hadith, morally it's wrong it's as simple as that. Marrying a 7 year woman and consuming the marriage at the age of 9 or 12 is considered by the law nowadays pedophilia.Defender OF Faith wrote: »The prophet marriage to Aisha is outside the scoop of this thread as we are discussing women rights in Islam, however if you can present to me a single hadith by Aisha out of the 2000+ she narrated where she stated her displeasure with the prophet her husband or how he oppressed her then you are welcome.
by the way you dodged several of my questions, I will go back to one of them only, how about Lesbians and their rights? the western world is changing, will the Muslim world ever change?
What about the link that I posted about sexual harassment, any comments and analysis on it or shall I consider it dodged too?0 -
confusedquark wrote: »It's great that women have the law to protect them, but it's not 100% protection - and prosecuting somebody after a rape is closing the gate after the horse has bolted. Whatever the level of protection they do get from the law, it's my belief that their protection will be more if they observed Hijab.
I hope you are joking, are you informed about the level of rapes in the Muslim world? do you know that in the Muslim world the victim of rape will almost certainly marry the rapist? have you looked at the rate of suicide because of it? if not I suggest you to look and then we might have a proper debate on this matter because the hijab solution isn't working as you are suggesting. BTW I will not post any link regarding this, if you want to know more google is your friend, if you want to close your eyes and ignore then fell free.confusedquark wrote: »You're clutching at straws there. Affairs almost always result in family problems, and are themselves the largest cause of divorces.
Because affairs don't exist in the Muslim world? because perhaps Divorce doesn't exist in the Muslim world? at least women here are protected by the law and social welfare, go and read about divorced women in Muslim countries, you will realise that the vast majority of them live in poverty after the divorce.0 -
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I hope you are joking, are you informed about the level of rapes in the Muslim world? do you know that in the Muslim world the victim of rape will almost certainly marry the rapist? .
If they are lucky. If they are unlucky, they end up getting hanged or stoned for the "crime" of adultery.0 -
You didn't just offer it as a perspective. You offered them as "reasons". Perspectives are not the same as reasons.
Talk about nit-picking. Those are the reasons from my perspective. Happy?Yes, I do understand what "more" means. And, as I said, I disagree. Women just express their attraction to men in a different, less straightforward way. The point is that Islam doesn't tell men to cover themselves, even though women are attracted to them as much as men are attracted to women.
When you've done your own studies to demonstrate the thinking patterns of men and women and prove the article I cited as wrong, I'll take you seriously. Until then, I'm not interested in your disagreements over scientific literature.No, the law won't protect anyone 100%. Neither will Islam - look at the way many Muslim men harass fully covered up women in some Islamic countries. The only real protection is individuals' maturity and mutual respect; and the law to back that up.
Islam will also not protect 100%, but again, I'll highlight the word "MORE".It's not clutching at straws to say that second relationships always cause problems. There are many situations where first relationships have run their course and both parties are ready to move on. Sometimes it causes problems, sometimes not. And, as I already pointed out, many relationships are between single people; what they do is their business alone.
I've never really come across anyone say "my partner/me having an affair was the best thing that ever happened to me" - even if that might be the case in a small minority, it's usually the opposite. Let's not pretend otherwise.It's not just my opinion, it's fact that society or religion can't legislate for people's moral behaviour. You can create a theocracy, like Saudi or Iraq, and force people to follow the diktats of a particular religion, but that is treating people like children, not responsible adults.
How on earth is that a fact? That's an opinion if ever there was one! Again, societies do "treat people like children, and not responsible adults" when it suits societies to do so. People might want to be free to do whatever (and whoever) they want, but it's not considered acceptable in Islam. Responsible adults won't have a problem with that - it's the irresponsible ones who'll be restricted.0 -
Well I have read about it a couple of times, it happened in countries where the Sharia law is enforced and radical people/terrorists are ruling the country or part of it, very sad and thankfully it doesn't happen in most Muslim countriesIf they are lucky. If they are unlucky, they end up getting hanged or stoned for the "crime" of adultery.0 -
Well I have read about it a couple of times, it happened in countries where the Sharia law is enforced and radical people/terrorists are ruling the country or part of it, very sad and thankfully it doesn't happen in most Muslim countries
No, it doesn't. But the fact that it does just shows how easy it is for Muslims to read their scripture to suit their own preconceptions.0 -
I hope you are joking, are you informed about the level of rapes in the Muslim world? do you know that in the Muslim world the victim of rape will almost certainly marry the rapist? have you looked at the rate of suicide because of it? if not I suggest you to look and then we might have a proper debate on this matter because the hijab solution isn't working as you are suggesting. BTW I will not post any link regarding this, if you want to know more google is your friend, if you want to close your eyes and ignore then fell free.
Because affairs don't exist in the Muslim world? because perhaps Divorce doesn't exist in the Muslim world? at least women here are protected by the law and social welfare, go and read about divorced women in Muslim countries, you will realise that the vast majority of them live in poverty after the divorce.
I'm talking about Islam - not the carry on of so-called Muslims who fail to abide by their own religion.0 -
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confusedquark wrote: »I'm talking about Islam - not the carry on of so-called Muslims who fail to abide by their own religion.
But they will argue that their religion permits them to do what they do...0 -
But they will argue that their religion permits them to do what they do...
We're back to people abusing religion again for their own means. You can tell them and show them that they're wrong (if they'll bother listening or discussing it with you), but as we see with ISIS, unless you have some authority over them, you can't stop them.0 -
confusedquark wrote: »I'm talking about Islam - not the carry on of so-called Muslims who fail to abide by their own religion.
ok, we are getting somewhere, selective process, a Muslim who prays, follows the five pillars and rapes a woman isn't Muslim anymore? a Muslim who has an affair isn't Muslim anymore? based on who or what do you say that?
Well I will say that Islam as a religion failed, or that Islam isn't the ultimate solution but I don't want to go out of topic, I shall remind you that we are talking about women's right, and I gave you an example about the reality that a Muslim woman faces when she is raped, is the fact that she is obliged to marry the rapist right? is the fact that she won't get any support from her family right? simple questions and I need simple answers yes or no.0 -
ok, we are getting somewhere, selective process, a Muslim who prays, follows the five pillars and rapes a woman isn't Muslim anymore? a Muslim who has an affair isn't Muslim anymore? based on who or what do you say that?
Well I will say that Islam as a religion failed, or that Islam isn't the ultimate solution but I don't want to go out of topic, I shall remind you that we are talking about women's right, and I gave you an example about the reality that a Muslim woman faces when she is raped, is the fact that she is obliged to marry the rapist right? is the fact that she won't get any support from her family right? simple questions and I need simple answers yes or no.
I meant more so "Muslims by name, but not by nature" when I said so-called Muslims. Muslims can commit all different types of sins and still be Muslims - I'm very careful before saying that somebody is not a Muslim. That's usually a matter between themselves and God.
I don't know where you're getting all that information from about the treatment of women who are raped, but I've already dealt with it earlier in the thread, and will copy and paste it here:
"Women are not punished if they are raped in Islam - but rather their claims are taken very seriously. Circumstantial evidence, medical data and expert testimony form the evidence that are used to prosecute such crimes. During the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him), punishment was inflicted on the rapist on the solitary evidence of the woman who was raped by the perpetrator."
I categorically disagree with you that "Islam has failed", because if it's purpose is to define how we live so that we can have a chance of getting into heaven, so long as there are Muslims on this planet who can abide by it and save themselves in the afterlife, it will have succeeded for that purpose.0 -
We are not discussing what families do here we are discussing Islam, some families happen to be practising the religion such as the sister excellent family while others are not.I already stated my point about the post by the Muslim sister, not all families are the same so if you look at a good family you have to look at a bad one too, and believe me bad families outnumber good families.
What?! I dont understand what does the issue of inheritance has to do with sex? and dodging what question? address the point I made and demonstrate how is it "Dodging the question"Obligations but what if he can't and he doesn't? still dodging questions?
So if we are not looking at the financial responsibility then we are looking at the sex, this is sexism which means some sort of racism.
Very poor source and hence your point can again not be taken seriously, I have provided a medical research source with the point being supported by actual studies, now unless you can present a source of equal value that discuss recent studies performed by doctors & researchers & not journalists then we can argue your point.
Here is an article that says that woman have higher sex drive than man: http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/06/turns-out-women-have-really-really-strong-sex-drives-can-men-handle-it/276598/
In Exodus 21:10, a man can marry an infinite amount of women without any limits to how many he can marry.Any examples?
In 2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3, King David had six wives and numerous concubines.
In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.
In 2 Chronicles 11:21, King Solomon's son Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines.
In Deuteronomy 21:15 "If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons...."
These are but few examples from the Old testament and as Jesus have said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)" Nowhere in the NT was polygamy prohibited.
The Qur'an is the only religious book on earth that says marry only one:Can you prove it?
Give the orphans* their money; do not replace the good with the bad, and do not consume their money to your money, for truly it is a great sin!
And if you fear that you cannot be just to the orphans, then you may marry those who are agreeable to you of the women: two, and three, and four. But if you fear you will not be fair, then only one**, or to whom you are committed to by oath. This is best that you do not face financial hardship. [4:3]
Again, The Quran shows a preference for monogamy in the following verse:
And marry the single from among you as well as the good from among your male and female servants. If they are poor, then God will grant them from His grace. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable. [24:32]
You are judging 7th century Arabia by 21st century Western European standards, are you doing this deliberately?I don't need to find a hadith, morally it's wrong it's as simple as that. Marrying a 7 year woman and consuming the marriage at the age of 9 or 12 is considered by the law nowadays pedophilia.
Can you read my friend? this thread discuss women rights in Islam and not lesbians and their rights.by the way you dodged several of my questions, I will go back to one of them only, how about Lesbians and their rights? the western world is changing, will the Muslim world ever change?
What about the link that I posted about sexual harassment, any comments and analysis on it or shall I consider it dodged too?
Regarding the Link you posted:
The link states that 87% of saudi blame women for sexual harassment, I looked around and could not find the official source for this survey to examine it closer the site claim to deal with Statistics from the Muslim world but only present nothing other then dumb hard to believe statistics such as "80% of London Muslims (1.03 mil) Support the Islamic State" without providing an solid reference to a recent survey or study performed or "Muslimas consume 200-400% more alcohol than American females", please present and quote a more reputable and official source then that0 -
What is your point in rehashing your former posts in another thread? Apart from showing that you never answered my question about why anyone, male or female, IF they have a medical issue, can't be given special consideration..
I'll nip in on that - if men or women have any medical issues, then they absolutely are given special considerations regarding their obligatory prayers. They don't have to perform the full wudhu properly if they cannot manage it and they can also pray sitting down or even lying in their beds if they can't manage to stand up.0 -
Defender OF Faith wrote: »We are not discussing what families do here we are discussing Islam, some families happen to be practising the religion such as the sister excellent family while others are not.
How do you know that the other families are not practicing? did you live in a Muslim country before? I have seen it with my eyes!!!
it has to do with sex because the male will always get more then the female, here is the question again:Defender OF Faith wrote: »What?! I dont understand what does the issue of inheritance has to do with sex? and dodging what question? address the point I made and demonstrate how is it "Dodging the question"Allow me to rephrase, in the Muslim world there are powerful woman, that make a lot of money and that contribute to their families more than the man, when it comes to the inheritance, as per the Islamic law, the woman will get less than the man regardless if she contributed more than him to the day to day expenses, how fair is this?Defender OF Faith wrote: »Very poor source and hence your point can again not be taken seriously, I have provided a medical research source with the point being supported by actual studies, now unless you can present a source of equal value that discuss recent studies performed by doctors & researchers & not journalists then we can argue your point.
I can provide with a real life source, let's go out during the week end and see, no need to post a link because even a medical source can be wrong. So I can't take your point seriously neither.Defender OF Faith wrote: »In Exodus 21:10, a man can marry an infinite amount of women without any limits to how many he can marry.
In 2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3, King David had six wives and numerous concubines.
In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.
In 2 Chronicles 11:21, King Solomon's son Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines.
In Deuteronomy 21:15 "If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons...."
These are but few examples from the Old testament and as Jesus have said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)" Nowhere in the NT was polygamy prohibited.
The Qur'an is the only religious book on earth that says marry only one:
Give the orphans* their money; do not replace the good with the bad, and do not consume their money to your money, for truly it is a great sin!
And if you fear that you cannot be just to the orphans, then you may marry those who are agreeable to you of the women: two, and three, and four. But if you fear you will not be fair, then only one**, or to whom you are committed to by oath. This is best that you do not face financial hardship. [4:3]
Again, The Quran shows a preference for monogamy in the following verse:
And marry the single from among you as well as the good from among your male and female servants. If they are poor, then God will grant them from His grace. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable. [24:32]
how come then Christianity/Judaism don't allow a man to marry four women, even though it's written in their book, and that Islam allows it? which one is right in your own opinion?Defender OF Faith wrote: »You are judging 7th century Arabia by 21st century Western European standards, are you doing this deliberately?
I am judging it morally, a 12 year old girl is still small, skinny, her body isn't completely formed, she is not suitable for marriage, there is also the psychological aspect. Am I right or wrong?
Can you use your brain my friend? A lesbian is a woman isn't she? I want to discuss her right in Islam too. This is a hot topic in Europe and in the world so we have to find your own position and the position of Islam too on it.Defender OF Faith wrote: »Can you read my friend? this thread discuss women rights in Islam and not lesbians and their rights.0 -
confusedquark wrote: »I meant more so "Muslims by name, but not by nature" when I said so-called Muslims. Muslims can commit all different types of sins and still be Muslims - I'm very careful before saying that somebody is not a Muslim. That's usually a matter between themselves and God.
ok, so a Muslim who commited a sin is still a Muslim obviously, can you please elaborate on the below:I hope you are joking, are you informed about the level of rapes in the Muslim world? do you know that in the Muslim world the victim of rape will almost certainly marry the rapist? have you looked at the rate of suicide because of it? if not I suggest you to look and then we might have a proper debate on this matter because the hijab solution isn't working as you are suggesting. BTW I will not post any link regarding this, if you want to know more google is your friend, if you want to close your eyes and ignore then fell free.
Because affairs don't exist in the Muslim world? because perhaps Divorce doesn't exist in the Muslim world? at least women here are protected by the law and social welfare, go and read about divorced women in Muslim countries, you will realise that the vast majority of them live in poverty after the divorce.confusedquark wrote: »I don't know where you're getting all that information from about the treatment of women who are raped, but I've already dealt with it earlier in the thread, and will copy and paste it here:
"Women are not punished if they are raped in Islam - but rather their claims are taken very seriously. Circumstantial evidence, medical data and expert testimony form the evidence that are used to prosecute such crimes. During the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him), punishment was inflicted on the rapist on the solitary evidence of the woman who was raped by the perpetrator."
Here are 2 links that I found quickly, search in google if you want to find more:
http://pamelageller.com/2011/11/islamic-law.html/
http://pamelageller.com/2012/06/sharia-law-in-moderate-jordan-rape-victim-14-forced-to-marry-rapist.html/
Edit: here is an interesting link: http://www.ahl-alquran.com/English/show_article.php?main_id=6157confusedquark wrote: »I categorically disagree with you that "Islam has failed", because if it's purpose is to define how we live so that we can have a chance of getting into heaven, so long as there are Muslims on this planet who can abide by it and save themselves in the afterlife, it will have succeeded for that purpose.
What I meant was that it has failed in protecting women's right, topics like polygamy, inheritance, woman raped and forced to marry the rapist...all these are elements that prove to me that Islam failed in terms of equality between a man and a woman.0 -
Based on their actions to see whether the agree with the Qur'an and Hadith or no, the sister family to me have practised Islam in its purist form by not distinguishing between the son and daughter and raising both equally and righteously which is the teaching of IslamHow do you know that the other families are not practicing? did you live in a Muslim country before? I have seen it with my eyes!!!
You seem to be obsessed with "sex" I didn't even mention the word when discussing inheritance.it has to do with sex because the male will always get more then the female,
You asked:
"Allow me to rephrase, in the Muslim world there are powerful woman, that make a lot of money and that contribute to their families more than the man, when it comes to the inheritance, as per the Islamic law, the woman will get less than the man regardless if she contributed more than him to the day to day expenses, how fair is this?"
I answered:
"If the Muslim women is powerful and wealthy that's fantastic but it remains the obligation of the man to bear the financial burden and she has the full right to support and help her husband if he needs support.
Plus re-read the example I have given, whether the women is wealthy or not is not even the subject of the discussion we are looking at the financial responsibility of both sexes with regard to the issue."
Do you see the word "Sex" in their? where did I say the man getting more then a female has to do with sex? Sir I dont think your taking me seriously or even attempting to read what am saying seriously.
Are you a doctor? did you read the study? I dont understand how you want to have an intellectual debate but when presented with a reputable source and study performed by people experts on their fields and not journalists you outright reject this source and claim simply that "It can be wrong"I can provide with a real life source, let's go out during the week end and see, no need to post a link because even a medical source can be wrong. So I can't take your point seriously neither.
Ask this question to a Christian and not me.how come then Christianity/Judaism don't allow a man to marry four women, even though it's written in their book
#1)Yes you are morally judging 7th century Arabia by 21st century Western European morals and standers.What gives you the right to decide what was wrong and right back then? especially since we live in a society where the morals and what's right and wrong are constantly changing, not so long ago the west viewed homosexuality as morally unacceptable but now days it has been largely accepted into western society.I am judging it morally, a 12 year old girl is still small, skinny, her body isn't completely formed, she is not suitable for marriage, there is also the psychological aspect.
#2) To stay on topic present to me a single hadith by Aisha the most beloved person to him and the women he choose to die on her lap, out of the 2000+ she narrated where she stated her displeasure with the prophet her husband or how he oppressed her then you are welcome. or where she complained about being small,skinny and her body not being completely formed before the prophet married her.
We Muslim believe just like Christianity and Judaism that Homosexuality is sinful,but that doesn't mean that I cannot respect homosexuals & be courteous toward them & show them love and compassion In fact in Islam if someone has homosexual inclinations he can lead the prayer in the Mosque.Can you use your brain my friend? A lesbian is a woman isn't she? I want to discuss her right in Islam too. This is a hot topic in Europe and in the world so we have to find your own position and the position of Islam too on it.
The Issue of Homosexuality in Islam deals with the Manifestation of the act, and therefore if you manifest this act in your own premises at home, in private that's not something I can do something about.
So a Lesbian women as long as she does not manifest this act in public will have the full right and respect of the Muslim society.0 -
Equality doesn't exist in Islam between Male and Female, a person has to be blind not to see it, there are too many differences that we talked about previously, veil, not being able to lead as an Imam, polygamy, inheritance....it's crystal clear.Defender OF Faith wrote: »Based on their actions to see whether the agree with the Qur'an and Hadith or no, the sister family to me have practised Islam in its purist form by not distinguishing between the son and daughter and raising both equally and righteously which is the teaching of IslamDefender OF Faith wrote: »You seem to be obsessed with "sex" I didn't even mention the word when discussing inheritance.
You asked:
"Allow me to rephrase, in the Muslim world there are powerful woman, that make a lot of money and that contribute to their families more than the man, when it comes to the inheritance, as per the Islamic law, the woman will get less than the man regardless if she contributed more than him to the day to day expenses, how fair is this?"
I answered:
"If the Muslim women is powerful and wealthy that's fantastic but it remains the obligation of the man to bear the financial burden and she has the full right to support and help her husband if he needs support.
Plus re-read the example I have given, whether the women is wealthy or not is not even the subject of the discussion we are looking at the financial responsibility of both sexes with regard to the issue."
Do you see the word "Sex" in their? where did I say the man getting more then a female has to do with sex? Sir I dont think your taking me seriously or even attempting to read what am saying seriously.
Do you see where you are wrong?? or you dodge my questions again??
I will repeat, inheritance has to do with gender (I removed the world sex just so you will be happy) and not with whom participated more, the fact that you stick to your idea that the man in "under obligation to bear the financial burden" is medieval and doesn't work in the time in which we live right now.Defender OF Faith wrote: »Are you a doctor? did you read the study? I dont understand how you want to have an intellectual debate but when presented with a reputable source and study performed by people experts on their fields and not journalists you outright reject this source and claim simply that "It can be wrong"
here is another link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_promiscuity
and as I said look at the reality, let's go out one night and then you will discover that women are no different than men.
On top of that your source isn't enough to prove that men have more right to marry four women than a woman has the right to marry four men, you seem to be happy to hide behind this article but the fact is that Islam as a religion is biased and favours men as oppose to women, crystal clear again.Defender OF Faith wrote: »Ask this question to a Christian and not me.
Why did you answer this part earlier and not now? ahhhh I see you don't have an answer now that's why, I am well used to your style, dodging question champion.Defender OF Faith wrote: »#1)Yes you are morally judging 7th century Arabia by 21st century Western European morals and standers.What gives you the right to decide what was wrong and right back then? especially since we live in a society where the morals and what's right and wrong are constantly changing, not so long ago the west viewed homosexuality as morally unacceptable but now days it has been largely accepted into western society.
I already answered this questionA 12 year old girl is still small, skinny, her body isn't completely formed, she is not suitable for marriage, there is also the psychological aspect. Am I right or wrong?Defender OF Faith wrote: »We Muslim believe just like Christianity and Judaism that Homosexuality is sinful,but that doesn't mean that I cannot respect homosexuals & be courteous toward them & show them love and compassion In fact in Islam if someone has homosexual inclinations he can lead the prayer in the Mosque.
The Issue of Homosexuality in Islam deals with the Manifestation of the act, and therefore if you manifest this act in your own premises at home, in private that's not something I can do something about.
So a Lesbian women as long as she does not manifest this act in public will have the full right and respect of the Muslim society.
Please don't hide behind Christianity and Judaism to draw sympathy from other readers, stick to Islam. Christianity is changing but Islam isn't when it comes to homosexuality.
misinformation wouldn't work with me, please read the belowlinks to have a full view of homosexuality in Islam:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/homosexual.htm
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_HomosexualityDefender OF Faith wrote: »In fact in Islam if someone has homosexual inclinations he can lead the prayer in the Mosque.
Can you confirm this after reading the links I posted? misinformation isn't good, how can I take you seriously now that you are altering information just to give a better image of Islam?0 -
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I'm not patronising you. I'm telling it like it is. You accept your subservient role in Islam and try to justify it with weak arguments. You are fooling yourself into thinking you are equal, but your religion tells yo you are not. I have given you examples of how, for example, you are not equal to your brother, whom you claim to be equal to. I'm not picking and choosing anything...your scripture says these things, and you can't deny them.
I'm not being rude when I say that you must have an exaggerated view of yourself; either that, or you really believe that your Muslim "brothers" are so weak willed that they can't control themselves in the presence of any woman. Either way, it doesn't say much about Islam or Muslims. Non-Muslim men and women can manage to interact every day without feeling sexual urges, because they respect each other as individuals. Of course, it's easy to opt out and prevent the possibility of sexual attraction, but non-Muslims prefer to trust people and to respect them. People may be weak willed, but they also have free will and respect for one another. It doesn't seem that Islam gives believers much credit for showing maturity or self-restraint. How DO I hold myself back every day when I interact with my male colleagues????? Sure, some people give in to their feelings; that's their choice. It all comes down to respect for the individual.
Why should I show you respect when you don't respect other people, who happen to be male?
They way you cover yourself up and the way your brother may dress doesn't come down to "the logic of reality and human biology,". Your brother can wear a pair of jeans and a tee-shirt, and display his face, his hair, his six-pack...Men have hair, and their hair can make them attractive. According to LOGIC, that fact should lead to them covering it up.
You may not think you are not justifying oppression, but you are. You are clearly brainwashed, and from that you are totally lacking in respect for half the human population.
As a Muslim, I’m telling you like it is. I don’t deny anything the scriptures say, as I believe them in their entirety along with the religion as a whole, whereas you only have a selective viewpoint.
For you to say that I don’t respect other people because of the way I dress, is very far-fetched. I’ve already commented on the things you have brought up again, so I won’t repeat myself the way you do.
Obviously our beliefs don’t match but attacking my opinions and beliefs is not constructive nor is your manner. I find this short interchange with you already tedious and un-stimulating and don’t see any point in continuing the pointless conversation with you.0 -
niamhstokes wrote: »Thanks so much for adding to the discussion. It's really cool to hear from a muslim woman for a change!!!!! No offense guys :-P
Just one question... you said you were able to marry who you wanted to but i think that is only true of Muslim men, as they can marry "people of the book" as they call it. Whereas a Muslim woman is not free to marry a Christian man and must only marry a Muslim man. I know the religion's logic behind it etc...about the man most likely to pass on the religion etc.. But that still leaves it that Muslim women are limited to marrying only Muslim men , whereas Muslim men are free to marry a Christian or Jewish woman.
That said, in my own faith, the Catholic faith, we can only marry non Catholics if they agree that the children will be raised as Catholics:
"...it is not necessary to become Catholic before marrying a Catholic. However, express permission of the local bishop is necessary. The Catholic person must uphold the obligation to preserve his or her own faith and “ensure the baptism and education of the children in the Catholic Church,” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1635)."
Also i find this REALLY interesting about the comparison between islamic hijabs and nuns habits
Also you should check out Sister Miriam James , she calls herself the 'groovy nun' on twitter :P At 6min15 sec she talks about her feelings on wearing the habit.
Thanks, no problem. What exactly is the question?0 -
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What is this rubbish,Here are 2 links that I found quickly, search in google if you want to find more:
http://pamelageller.com/2011/11/islamic-law.html/
http://pamelageller.com/2012/06/sharia-law-in-moderate-jordan-rape-victim-14-forced-to-marry-rapist.html/
Edit: here is an interesting link: http://www.ahl-alquran.com/English/show_article.php?main_id=6157
"Islam teaches that women are the possessions of men"
Clearly the writers of such articles have not understand or even studied Islam, please provide a more reputable resource, and do not judge Islam based on the actions of Muslims, Muslims are Human that sin and make mistakes,among them is the radical and moderate so label their action as "Islam" is simply wrong, instead ask whether such action is truly a part of Islam or no.
#1) The first article and the second discuss similar issues that's forced marriage of a women especially to a rapist.
From the beginning whoever decided on such a law clearly does not understand the Sharia as a women cannot be forced to marry any one against her will since the verse clearly states:
"O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good." [Noble Quran 4:19]
And according to the Hadith:
Narrated Khansa bint Khidam Al-Ansariya: that her father gave her in marriage when she was a matron and she disliked that marriage. So she went to Allah's Apostle and he declared that marriage invalid.[Bukhari]
Secondly a rapist is someone who committed adultery and the Qur'an explicitly states:
"The fornicator does not marry except a [female] fornicator or polytheist, and none marries her except a fornicator or a polytheist, and that has been made unlawful to the believers"24:3
Therefore we have established that under Islamic law a women cannot be forced to marry against her will, and a rapist unless he repent cannot marry a believing Muslim women.
The 3rd article you presented states that Sharia law punishes the raped women:
Under Sharia law the rapist will be inflected with the Sharia Punishment of adultery and is forced according to some scholars to pay her a dowry.
The writer however is making his point based on the difficulty of establishing the proof of rape or adultery in Islam making the victim possibly to prove her claim of rape,but what the author had failed to point out that cases of rape are in general difficult to prove, and in accordance with The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, "Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence."
According to the CPS UK Policy for Prosecuting Cases of Rape, section 5:
http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/prosecution/rape.html#_05
To avoid wasting space here read point 1-6, Under Sharia law the evidence for establishing rape is similar to adultery however in the case of a rape it can be proven with the same level of evidence as stated by point 1-6. DNA testing under Sharia is taken as secondary evidence and is not completely rejected as the writer implied:
"THE Council of Islamic Ideology (CII) has recently stated that DNA is secondary evidence in rape cases. This has been bitterly criticised by many. Here is a counter-viewpoint why DNA is secondary evidence.
DNA testing can prove that intercourse has occurred but not the circumstances of the event. Other evidence is needed to differentiate between rape (zina bil jabr) and consensual sex (zina bil raza). In rape, only the man will be punished, and in consensual sex, both man and woman will be punished.Science cannot prove that in case of a rape the DNA would be different and in case of intercourse with consent it will be different.
This can be treated as initial evidence, but not main evidence for rape. Also, one of the basic principles of both Sharia and the man-made law, to which attention must be paid, is that the accused is innocent until proved guilty and the claim of the claimant — whether man or woman — cannot be accepted unless there is valid proof."
The author also fails to realise that DNA testing under western rape prosecution laws in general is not enough to prove rape due to not only the limitation involved but since DNA testing will only eliminates a suspect from suspicion or identify and further evidence is required to prove the rape.
https://www.umassd.edu/media/umassdartmouth/schooloflaw/students/studentorganizations/umasslawreview/umasslawreview2006/strengths_limitations_and_controversies_of_dna_evidence.pdf
http://www.wyndhamforensic.ca/resources/resources/Wfg_DNA_Nov09.pdf0 -
Am not talking about a medieval Idea am talking about Islamic Law, and under Islamic law it's the male obligation to be the financial provider of the family you are yet to prove how does this belittle the women or deem her as unequal & in accordance with this obligation the inheritance is given.Do you see where you are wrong?? or you dodge my questions again??
I will repeat, inheritance has to do with gender (I removed the world sex just so you will be happy) and not with whom participated more, the fact that you stick to your idea that the man in "under obligation to bear the financial burden" is medieval and doesn't work in the time in which we live right now.
I ask you to provide a reputable source and you quote me wikipedia! listen my friend you cannot say in a debate:here is another link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_promiscuity
and as I said look at the reality, let's go out one night and then you will discover that women are no different than men.
Well X is correct I have no evidence to support it but why don't you take a ride with me today and I will show you?
Obviously I will not take a night out with you to see nor do I even know you sir, am presenting the Islamic situation and this is what matters, if this situation conflicts with what you see then clearly those people are not very practising .
Prove,discuss, show me how it's not enough and dont simply state a blanket statement.On top of that your source isn't enough to prove that men have more right to marry four women than a woman has the right to marry four men
I dont think you are following what you are writing your self sir, earlier on you were asking me about Polygamy and Islam and I answered as a Muslim now you are asking me "why are Christian not polygamous when their scripture does not prohibit them" I told you go ask a Christian he will be able to answer as to why, since some Christians actively debate whether the New Testament or Christian ethics allows or forbids polygamy & am merely quoting his/her scripture..Why did you answer this part earlier and not now? ahhhh I see you don't have an answer now that's why, I am well used to your style, dodging question champion.
You answered by sayingI already answered this question
"A 12 year old girl is still small, skinny, her body isn't completely formed, she is not suitable for marriage, there is also the psychological aspect. Am I right or wrong?"
And I replied by saying:
"present to me a single hadith by Aisha the most beloved person to him and the women he choose to die on her lap, out of the 2000+ she narrated where she stated her displeasure with the prophet her husband or how he oppressed her then you are welcome. or where she complained about being small,skinny and her body not being completely formed before the prophet married her."
Am waiting for your evidence...
Hide behind Christianity? Draw sympathy I merely stated "We Muslim believe just like Christianity and Judaism that Homosexuality is sinful" which is a fact so I fail to see how can I draw sympathy from this & how is that hiding behind Christianity when I clearly stated "We Muslims"Please don't hide behind Christianity and Judaism to draw sympathy from other readers
#1) you said:misinformation wouldn't work with me, please read the belowlinks to have a full view of homosexuality in Islam:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/homosexual.htm
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Homosexuality
"misinformation wouldn't work with me"
What I provided is the Orthodox Muslim view on Homosexuality, you have yet to prove how what I said conflicts with Islam of what Mainstream Muslim believe using the Hadith & Qur'an. What we Muslim not accept is the manifestation of this sin in public, otherwise if a homosexual keeps his practice private or in his premise he enjoys the full rights as any other Muslim.
#2)LOL! Citing Wiki-islam and Answering Islam among your sources of "true information", both of which are littered by Anti-Islamic articles written by people who have a strong a negative sentimental against Islam and its prophet subjecting their writings to bias & subjectivity add to this the fact that not a single one of the writers of these articles hold a degree in Islamic scholarship,Arabic & Hadith for me or any Muslim in fact to take his/her claims seriously.
#3) You cant progress a debate by placing your whole point and idea on a link you provide, what usually happen is that you present your argument and then you provide the source and not provide the source alone. If you want to stick to your sources dont cite them for me YOUread them and summarise what you read for me presenting the Hadith,verses and statements that support your argument while pointing out my mistakes.
I do not need to read to confirm this, as I have mentioned before the links you posted are not written by Islamic scholars for me or for any Muslim to take their words seriously.Can you confirm this after reading the links I posted?
I told you that a Muslim with Homosexual inclination can lead the Muslim prayer,since the whole problem is the manifestation of the act and not the tendencies you are yet to prove otherwise by presenting a Hadith of the Prophet that strictly forbid homosexuals from leading the prayers because no such Hadith exist.0 -
Tom, you removed this post before for being to long, I so rewrote the post trying to make it as short as possible but please understand that am trying to provide a picture of women across all of Islam and not just in only the 5 cases that are being discussed back and forth in this thread,so I hope you make some sort of an exception regarding this post as it was written using multiple resources and not simply a copy/paste
All differences were discussed, Islam ackowledge the fact that differences between the sexes exist regarding their biology,physiology and psychology and treats them according in a way that brings justice and equality to both, and it has been shown that in non of the example you gave the women is considered less equal then a man. You fail to prove how our explanation is in anyway incorrect or further support the inequality of women.Equality doesn't exist in Islam between Male and Female, a person has to be blind not to see it, there are too many differences that we talked about previously, veil, not being able to lead as an Imam, polygamy, inheritance....it's crystal clear
So far only 5 verses{1inheritance,1polygamy,1testimony,1veil,1Guardianship} out of 6236 verses and 1 Hadith[Intelligence Hadith] out of 3000+ Hadith were provided by you and others in this thread in supporting the claim of inequality. If Islam wanted to truly oppress the women, it would have integrated this teaching into its every single one of its teachings, why dont we broad out look and take a deeper look into the scripture and Hadith on Issues regarding women?
(Verily, the Muslim men and women, the believing men and women, the men and the women who are obedient (to Allah), the men and women who are truthful, the men and the women who are patient, the men and the women who are humble (before their Lord Allah), the men and the women who give Sadaqat (i.e. Zakat, and alms, etc.), the men and the women who observe Saum (fast), the men and the women who guard their chastity and the men and the women who remember Allah much with their hearts and tongues Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a great reward (i.e. Paradise).)
Notice how the women is mentioned along side the man when each quality is discussed, surely if she's view as inferior to man this would not be the case.
"For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise, for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward." [Noble Quran 33:35]
Notice how The Quran, uses the expression, 'believing men and women' to emphasize the equality of men and women in regard to their respective duties, rights, virtues and merits.
Narrated 'Amr bin Al-As:
The Prophet deputed me to lead the Army of Dhat-as-Salasil. I came to him and said, "Who is the most beloved person to you?" He said, " 'Aisha." I asked, "Among the men?" He said, "Her father." I said, "Who then?" He said, "Then 'Umar bin Al-Khattab." He then named other men.
Note how the most beloved person to the heart of the prophet is a women, not a man.
"Women are but the sisters of man the one who honour them is honourable and those who humiliate them are but wicked" Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal
Why did the prophet describe the women as a "sister" and not a servant if his religion promote inequality?
‘Among the Muslims the most perfect, as regards his faith, is the one whose character is excellent, and the best among you are those who treat their wives well.’ Al-Tirmidhi Hadith 628
Note how the prophet gave the testimony of excellence to those who treat their wives well, why is this if he wanted to oppress the women?
Talhah ibn Mu'âwiyah as-Salamî said:
I came to the Prophet and said, "O Messenger of Allah, I want to perform Jihad in the way of Allah. He asked, "Is your mother alive?" I replied, "Yes." The Prophet then said: "Cling to her feet, because paradise is there." (at-Tabarânî).
A Muslim will kneel down to his mothers feet in humility because his prophet told his paradise is under her feet do you honestly think I would do that if I considered them sub-servants? why not the feet of the father?
A man came to the Prophet and said: O Messenger of Allah! Who from amongst mankind warrants the best companionship from me? He replied: "Your mother." The man asked: Then who? So he replied: "Your mother." The man then asked: Then who? So the Prophet replied again: "Your mother." The man then asked: Then who? So he replied: "Then your father." (Sahîh Bukhârî )
A mother is given rights 3 fold that of the father, so this necessitates that the mother is given three times the like of kindness and good treatment than the father. Why will the Prophet say this if he wanted to oppress the women?
To conclude the only person in the History of Islam to receive Glad tiding for God is Khadija the first wife of the prophet and as you clearly see she is a women and not a man, why will such honour go to a women if the religion of Islam wanted to oppress her?
All that has preceded are but few examples that shows how the status of mothers - and consequently that of women - is elevated to the highest position in Islam. The honor Islam has given to mothers is beyond that found in any other religion, ideology or culture.
Sources:
http://www.alsiraj.net/English/misc/women/html/page01.html
http://www.islamswomen.com/index.php
http://www.muhammad-pbuh.com/en/?p=2360 -
Interesting thread. I recently came across an institution that I wasnt previously aware of located right here in Dublin called the "European council for fatwa and research". being curious about this institution I then wanted to read up some more about it and what it stands for and what it entails so I went looking for its website. on finding it I found the site to to be in arabic and alas I cant speak that language. though some of the alleged citations or lack of thereof on wikipedia and apparent mission statement I would be interested to see if indeed they are genuine... according to wikipedia...
____________________________________________________________________________
The European Council for Fatwa and Research (ECFR) is a Dublin-based private foundation, founded in London on 29–30 March 1997 on the initiative of the Federation of Islamic Organizations in Europe. The Council is a largely self-selected body, composed of Islamic clerics and scholars, presided over by Yusuf al-Qaradawi.
The ECFR aims "to present to the Muslim World and the Muslim minorities in the West particularly" [1] its interpretation of "the manifestation of Allah's infinite mercy, knowledge and wisdom". For the ECFR, the shariah clearly embodies the superior rules in life: "the Shari'ah cannot be amended to conform to changing human values and standards, rather, it is the absolute norm to which all human values and conduct must conform; it is the frame to which they must be referred; it is the scale on which they must be weighed." They are referring to shariah in ones personal life, they are not advocates of replacing the current legal system with shariah law .[2]
It wants to achieve these through:
bringing together Islamic scholars who live in Europe
attempting to unify the jurisprudence views between them in regards with the main Fiqh (Islamic law) issues, especially with regard to the minority status of Muslims in Europe;
issue collective fatwas which meet the needs of Muslims in Europe, solve their problems and regulate their interaction with the European communities, all according the shariah;
research how issues arising in Europe can be resolved with strict respect for the shariah.
The ECFR is one of the main channels for the publications of fatwa's by Yusuf al-Qaradawi, a Muslim scholar affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood[3] , and his main English-language channel.
Among others, it wants to promote, and control, the local education of native imam's for the Muslim minorities in European countries. Amongst others, it participates in such initiatives in France (in cooperation with the European Institute for Humanitarian and Islamic Studies) and the United Kingdom.
It also strives to become an approved religious authority before local governments and private establishments in all countries where Muslims are a minority.
Aside from the exclusion of non-Sunni Muslims, and more importantly, other people criticize the ECFR for its fierce refusal to accept separation of church and state as an element of democracy, as well as several principles of democracy. The fatwa's of the ECFR's chairmain, Yussuf al-Qaradawi, are clear on how this tendency in Islam sees democracy and universal human rights:
On the separation of state and church (secularism)[citation needed]: "Since Islam is a comprehensive system of `Ibadah (worship) and Shari'ah (legislation), the acceptance of secularism means abandonment of Shari'ah, a denial of the Divine guidance and a rejection of Allah’s injunctions. (...) the call for secularism among Muslims is atheism and a rejection of Islam. Its acceptance as a basis for rule in place of Shari'ah is a downright apostasy.".[5][citation needed]
On equal rights for women[citation needed]: "Those misguided people cudgel their brains in finding out lame arguments that tend to give both males and females equal shares of inheritance ... it’s the nature of woman to be maintained and cared for by man ... irrespective of whether she is poor or rich.".[5]
On democracy -where per definition a majority vote might differ from the commands in the Qur'an and Sunnah,[citation needed]: "the Shari'ah cannot be amended to conform to changing human values and standards, rather, it is the absolute norm to which all human values and conduct must conform ...".[6]
_
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Council_for_Fatwa_and_Research_________________________________________________________________________
the part in bold would it be possible if somebody who speaks arabic to have a look at their site and see if indeed the fatwa's of the ECFR's chairmain, Yussuf al-Qaradawi, are similar to what has been outlined on wikipedia. cheers.
http://e-cfr.org/new/0 -
Defender of Faith you said:Am not talking about a medieval Idea am talking about Islamic Law, and under Islamic law it's the male obligation to be the financial provider of the family you are yet to prove how does this belittle the women or deem her as unequal & in accordance with this obligation the inheritance is given.
That is a clear and specific example of the attitude of Islamic Law to women, and demonstrates the inherent inequality which is the base line for discussion on the part of Muslims. I have said before, why do you not take the honest line and say, 'Islam teaches men that they have to be responsible for and supervise women. In this sense they are not equal, but they are cared for which we (Muslim men) consider more important.' Every time you quote the Quran you prove this point, you obviously believe it, why do you continue to deny it?0 -
confusedquark wrote: »We're back to people abusing religion again for their own means. You can tell them and show them that they're wrong (if they'll bother listening or discussing it with you), but as we see with ISIS, unless you have some authority over them, you can't stop them.
No, you're back to people INTERPRETING their religion in a way to suit what they want. Just like you do. Their way is only harsher.0 -
Here are 2 links that I found quickly, search in google if you want to find more:
http://pamelageller.com/2011/11/islamic-law.html/
http://pamelageller.com/2012/06/sharia-law-in-moderate-jordan-rape-victim-14-forced-to-marry-rapist.html/
It has been brought to my attention that this person Pamela Geller is particularly anti-Islam.
I draw your attention to the charter regarding the posting of reputable sources. Please do not do that again as it adds nothing to the debate, only inflames matters.
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confusedquark wrote: »I don't know where you're getting all that information from about the treatment of women who are raped,
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1081214/Somali-girl-pleaded-mercy-Islamists-stoned-death-raped.html
"
A girl of 13 begged for mercy moments before a mob buried her up to her shoulders and stoned her to death, it was claimed yesterday.
The Somalian youngster is said to have pleaded 'Don't kill me, don't kill me' before her horrific execution in front of a 1,000-strong crowd...According to Amnesty International, the girl was 13 and had been raped by three men.
Officials say she was 23 and had confessed adultery before an Islamic court."
I know who I'd choose to believe between Amnesty International and some Islamic fundamentalists. But EVEN if she was 23, and had confessed to adultery, it's still interesting that the three men involved weren't treated in the same way.
Lots more about it here: http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/10/28/punished-for-being-raped-the-burden-of-women-under-sharia/0
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