Good economic news thread

hfallada · 29-12-2014 09:51AM

Godge wrote: »

One thing I do believe is that the recovery is going to be entirely city-based. Over the last decade Ireland has missed the huge trend happening worldwide which is the rise of cities and increased urbanisation. The day of a factory for every town is now gone and outside Dublin, Limerick, Cork and maybe Galway and Waterford, don't expect to see any recovery for another three to four years.

But with increasing oil prices and a more educated/skilled workforce, urbanisation is going to happen. City living is the best form in a services point of view. Its far easier and cheaper to provide services in more dense areas. There is people in the west of Ireland giving out about no public transport. Yet there is suburbs in Dublin which have probably have more people than most counties in the West.

I can imagine all the Growth the next few years to be centered in Dublin. Plus a little bit in Cork and Galway. But Dublin will continue have most of the growth. It has all the factors to make it a successful global city, which Galway or Cork dont have. You can get a German or American to move to Dublin without little hesitation. But a German wont be too happy to move to Galway.

Sheldons Brain · 29-12-2014 06:41PM

hfallada wrote: »

You can get a German or American to move to Dublin without little hesitation. But a German wont be too happy to move to Galway.

Good plan, lets build Ireland the way the Germans want it.
How about a New Year resolution of no forelock tipping?

murphaph · 30-12-2014 09:03AM

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Good plan, lets build Ireland the way the Germans want it.

That's not what the poster said though.

Godge · 30-12-2014 06:02PM

hfallada wrote: »

But with increasing oil prices and a more educated/skilled workforce, urbanisation is going to happen. City living is the best form in a services point of view. Its far easier and cheaper to provide services in more dense areas. There is people in the west of Ireland giving out about no public transport. Yet there is suburbs in Dublin which have probably have more people than most counties in the West.

I can imagine all the Growth the next few years to be centered in Dublin. Plus a little bit in Cork and Galway. But Dublin will continue have most of the growth. It has all the factors to make it a successful global city, which Galway or Cork dont have. You can get a German or American to move to Dublin without little hesitation. But a German wont be too happy to move to Galway.

I agree that the most likely outcome is Dublin-centred growth, but if it is to be countered, it can only be done by the Government prioritising at most three to four other cities than Dublin i.e. Galway, Cork, Limerick plus one other (Waterford or Sligo).

The current spatial strategy that includes places like Killarney, Athlone, Mullingar, Tralee, Letterkenny etc. is a joke. It is 70 years too late.

Rightwing · 01-01-2015 12:47PM

hfallada wrote: »

But with increasing oil prices and a more educated/skilled workforce, urbanisation is going to happen. City living is the best form in a services point of view. Its far easier and cheaper to provide services in more dense areas. There is people in the west of Ireland giving out about no public transport. Yet there is suburbs in Dublin which have probably have more people than most counties in the West.

I can imagine all the Growth the next few years to be centered in Dublin. Plus a little bit in Cork and Galway. But Dublin will continue have most of the growth. It has all the factors to make it a successful global city, which Galway or Cork dont have. You can get a German or American to move to Dublin without little hesitation. But a German wont be too happy to move to Galway.[/[/B]QUOTE]

Is this fact, opinion or utter waffle ? Seeing as 1 of the biggest German companies is based in Galway, I suspect the latter.

Godge · 01-01-2015 01:49PM

Rightwing wrote: »

Is this fact, opinion or utter waffle ? Seeing as 1 of the biggest German companies is based in Galway, I suspect the latter.

I don't think you will see one of the biggest German companies locating in Tralee, Killarney, Mallow, Letterkenny, Castlebar, Mullingar, Athlone or Tullamore, do you?

Saipanne · 01-01-2015 02:36PM

Godge wrote: »

I don't think you will see one of the biggest German companies locating in Tralee, Killarney, Mallow, Letterkenny, Castlebar, Mullingar, Athlone or Tullamore, do you?

What a stupid post.

That wasn't the point at all.

hfallada · 01-01-2015 03:09PM

Is this fact, opinion or utter waffle ? Seeing as 1 of the biggest German companies is based in Galway, I suspect the latter.[/QUOTE]

Yes there is a few major factories in Galway. But its the third biggest city in the Republic. Its going to have to have some factories with its population.

But take Google in Dublin. My friends work there and apparently 28% of the workforce, is in their gay workplace society.Thats only the people registered to be in it, so you can assume there is more of them. Do you think a twenty something gay person will happily move from NYC to Waterford? No, as they are going to have a significantly inferior lifestyle. Even with being paid more than in Dublin, there is no monetary factors stopping them moving to Waterford eg lack of decent nightlife, poorer services than Dublin, less entertainment.

Irish people emigrating move to large cities to enjoy the better lifestyle they offer than smaller cities. Nearly all Irish emigrating to the UK, move to London. You dont hear them moving to Liverpool, Leeds or Bristol. They want the better quality of life that London offers, even if rent is extremely expensive

Silentcorner · 01-01-2015 06:33PM

hfallada wrote: »

Is this fact, opinion or utter waffle ? Seeing as 1 of the biggest German companies is based in Galway, I suspect the latter.

Yes there is a few major factories in Galway. But its the third biggest city in the Republic. Its going to have to have some factories with its population.

But take Google in Dublin. My friends work there and apparently 28% of the workforce, is in their gay workplace society.Thats only the people registered to be in it, so you can assume there is more of them. Do you think a twenty something gay person will happily move from NYC to Waterford? No, as they are going to have a significantly inferior lifestyle. Even with being paid more than in Dublin, there is no monetary factors stopping them moving to Waterford eg lack of decent nightlife, poorer services than Dublin, less entertainment.

Irish people emigrating move to large cities to enjoy the better lifestyle they offer than smaller cities. Nearly all Irish emigrating to the UK, move to London. You dont hear them moving to Liverpool, Leeds or Bristol. They want the better quality of life that London offers, even if rent is extremely expensive[/QUOTE]

Take a look at the populations of cities in Norway and New Zealand, countries with a similar population to ourselves, they have way more mid sized cities than Ireland has, how do they manage that?

Could it be that this country with its very centralised system of government is not allowing that growth to spread outside that centralised population area.

If the regions got more autonomy and a streamlined system of administration (like they get in other countries) there is no reason why the regional cities cannot grow like they do in other countries, it is very short sighted to think that this is impossible...

A lot of companies like the regional areas as there is not as high staff turnover, wages are lower, remember eventually people want to settle down, the regional cities offer that opportunity this wouldn't suit some companies but there are enough companies in these regional cities to suggest it is a perfectly viable strategy.

Of course, these regional cities in particular Waterford/Cork/Limerick have a long history of indigenous industry and manufacture, there is no reason why the if the appropriate structures were in place that this could not be repeated, we cannot always depend on FDI.

For the record, Galway is not the third largest city in the country.

OMD · 02-01-2015 05:51PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Take a look at the populations of cities in Norway and New Zealand, countries with a similar population to ourselves, they have way more mid sized cities than Ireland has, how do they manage that?

Could it be that this country with its very centralised system of government is not allowing that growth to spread outside that centralised population area.

For the record, Galway is not the third largest city in the country.

Norway, New Zealand and Ireland are reasonably similar in that they are all dominated by one large city which has between 1/4 and 1/3 of the entire country's population. New Zealand and Norway differ from Ireland in that Ireland has a greater rural population. In other words the exact opposite of your argument.

Also if you count Fingal, Dun Laoighaire and Dublin City as all actually Dublin, then in population terms Dublin is largest, Cork second, Galway third and Limerick 4th.
http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/population/populationofeachprovincecountyandcity2011/

1huge1 · 02-01-2015 07:02PM

OMD wrote: »

Norway, New Zealand and Ireland are reasonably similar in that they are all dominated by one large city which has between 1/4 and 1/3 of the entire country's population. New Zealand and Norway differ from Ireland in that Ireland has a greater rural population. In other words the exact opposite of your argument.

Also if you count Fingal, Dun Laoighaire and Dublin City as all actually Dublin, then in population terms Dublin is largest, Cork second, Galway third and Limerick 4th.
http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/population/populationofeachprovincecountyandcity2011/

A slight aside point, but Limerick city urban area is the 3rd largest city in the state. It is the city limits that make it seem smaller than it seems.

Rightwing · 02-01-2015 07:06PM

hfallada wrote: »

Is this fact, opinion or utter waffle ? Seeing as 1 of the biggest German companies is based in Galway, I suspect the latter.

Yes there is a few major factories in Galway. But its the third biggest city in the Republic. Its going to have to have some factories with its population.

But take Google in Dublin. My friends work there and apparently 28% of the workforce, is in their gay workplace society.Thats only the people registered to be in it, so you can assume there is more of them. Do you think a twenty something gay person will happily move from NYC to Waterford? No, as they are going to have a significantly inferior lifestyle. Even with being paid more than in Dublin, there is no monetary factors stopping them moving to Waterford eg lack of decent nightlife, poorer services than Dublin, less entertainment.

Irish people emigrating move to large cities to enjoy the better lifestyle they offer than smaller cities. Nearly all Irish emigrating to the UK, move to London. You dont hear them moving to Liverpool, Leeds or Bristol. They want the better quality of life that London offers, even if rent is extremely expensive[/QUOTE]

I think we are gone off on a little tangent when we are discussing homosexuals in the workplace.

By and large, people will move where the jobs are. For companies, they will want to be located near good infrastructure etc. Galway fits the bill nicely, hence you have the likes of Covidien / SAP / Cisco / Boston cientific / IBM / HP / Fidelity / Medtronic etc all located there.

http://www.idaireland.com/en/newsroom/ida-ireland-launches-inve/

Rightwing · 02-01-2015 07:08PM

1huge1 wrote: »

A slight aside point, but Limerick city urban area is the 3rd largest city in the state. It is the city limits that make it seem smaller than it seems.

They changed that recently, but left out the suburbs that go into Clare, and then included rural areas like Patrickswell. Only in Ireland. :rolleyes:

Silentcorner · 02-01-2015 08:20PM

OMD wrote: »

Norway, New Zealand and Ireland are reasonably similar in that they are all dominated by one large city which has between 1/4 and 1/3 of the entire country's population. New Zealand and Norway differ from Ireland in that Ireland has a greater rural population. In other words the exact opposite of your argument.

Also if you count Fingal, Dun Laoighaire and Dublin City as all actually Dublin, then in population terms Dublin is largest, Cork second, Galway third and Limerick 4th.
http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/population/populationofeachprovincecountyandcity2011/

Norway has ten cities over the population on 60,000
New Zealand has has ten cities over the population of 50,000

Ireland has 5 cities over the population of 50,000

OMD · 02-01-2015 09:03PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Norway has ten cities over the population on 60,000
New Zealand has has ten cities over the population of 50,000

Ireland has 5 cities over the population of 50,000

However the reason is not that we have one big city where everything is concentrated as you said.
All 3 countries have a big city where a huge proportion of the people live. The difference in Ireland is that we have a very large number io very small towns and villages that neither Norway or New Zealand have. Outside of their capital city people are concentrated in smaller cities. In Ireland outside of our Capital most people live in small towns and villages.

Silentcorner · 02-01-2015 10:38PM

OMD wrote: »

However the reason is not that we have one big city where everything is concentrated as you said.
All 3 countries have a big city where a huge proportion of the people live. The difference in Ireland is that we have a very large number io very small towns and villages that neither Norway or New Zealand have. Outside of their capital city people are concentrated in smaller cities. In Ireland outside of our Capital most people live in small towns and villages.

That was my point. Regional cities will always vary in same size, but in this country we are completely unbalanced, unnecessarily. No reason why we cant have multiple mid sized cities just like Norway and New Zealand. We just do not have the political will it seems.

I'm not sure if i am making myself clear, or you are failing to see my point, but if we keep driving FDI into 1 city primarily we are doing more damage in the long term, as wages and living costs become unsustainable.

More/Larger regional cities mean more access to opportunity for people who do not want to live in Dublin...

Rightwing · 02-01-2015 11:47PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

That was my point. Regional cities will always vary in same size, but in this country we are completely unbalanced, unnecessarily. No reason why we cant have multiple mid sized cities just like Norway and New Zealand. We just do not have the political will it seems.

I'm not sure if i am making myself clear, or you are failing to see my point, but if we keep driving FDI into 1 city primarily we are doing more damage in the long term, as wages and living costs become unsustainable.

More/Larger regional cities mean more access to opportunity for people who do not want to live in Dublin...

True......but it would require brains, something our civil servants are severely lacking.

ezra_pound · 03-01-2015 12:04AM

1huge1 wrote: »

A slight aside point, but Limerick city urban area is the 3rd largest city in the state. It is the city limits that make it seem smaller than it seems.

You're right.

Just looking at the list for the island and never realised that Bangor, Lisburn and Newtownabbey are all bigger than Waterford. Wow.

Godge · 03-01-2015 03:15PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

That was my point. Regional cities will always vary in same size, but in this country we are completely unbalanced, unnecessarily. No reason why we cant have multiple mid sized cities just like Norway and New Zealand. We just do not have the political will it seems.

I'm not sure if i am making myself clear, or you are failing to see my point, but if we keep driving FDI into 1 city primarily we are doing more damage in the long term, as wages and living costs become unsustainable.

More/Larger regional cities mean more access to opportunity for people who do not want to live in Dublin...

That would mean the politicians would have to choose which regional cities to support with industrial development and drop all of the other large towns and villages. If a government did go with Cork, Limerick and Waterford only, they would never get a vote west of the Shannon again.

Rightwing wrote: »

True......but it would require brains, something our civil servants are severely lacking.

It is a political problem rather than a civil service problem. There was plenty of civil service advice against the "one for everyone in the audience" Spatial Strategy

Silentcorner · 03-01-2015 05:38PM

Godge wrote: »

That would mean the politicians would have to choose which regional cities to support with industrial development and drop all of the other large towns and villages. If a government did go with Cork, Limerick and Waterford only, they would never get a vote west of the Shannon again.

It is a political problem rather than a civil service problem. There was plenty of civil service advice against the "one for everyone in the audience" Spatial Strategy

Well the status quo ain't working. I'm not even sure if it is working for the Dubs with housing/childcare/living costs much higher than elsewhere along with very long commuting times, I know Capital Cities are always more expensive but as much as we all love Dublin, it isn't a Global City like London for example.

My point was that there is nothing stopping us developing multiple mid sized cities across the country, like the countries I mentioned, a motor way from Waterford to Sligo would be a massive help. This would mean that people living within 20-30 min drive from that motorway have much greater access to opportunity, allowing people in towns like Tralee/Clonmel/Ennis/Ballina etc etc a chance to commute and therefore maintain a population level in their towns.

I'm not 100% sure it is a political problem, remember the political establishment attempted to move Civil Servants out of Dublin under DeCentralisation Program, but the Unions were having none of it, I may have that wrong, but that was my understanding, maybe someone can clear that up.

I am against the one for everyone in the audience that merely allows the scattered nature of our population, but I strongly believe in multiple regional growth engines.

smcgiff · 03-01-2015 05:41PM

We should consider a good economic News thread.

Dannyboy83 · 03-01-2015 05:48PM

Cork & Shannon were supposed to act as counterweights to the concentration of the population around Dublin, according to the National Spatial Strategy

http://nss.ie/pdfs/Completea.pdf

The growing strength of the other existing Gateway cities of Cork, Limerick/Shannon, Galway and Waterford suggest
that there is potential for seeking their concerted and co-ordinated development as a counterweight to the pull
eastwards on the island. In the longer term, the dynamics of certain other cities and towns, particularly in the
Northwest, point to ways in which this counterweight could be strengthened further

Of the regional cities, Cork has the most immediate potential to be developed to the national level scale required to
complement Dublin. The Cork Area Strategic Plan (CASP) sets a positive agenda for proceeding in this direction,

National Development Plan: Cork & Shannon Airport were part of the strategic economic development

https://www2.ul.ie/pdf/932500843.pdf
Shannon and Cork Airports are key infrastructure in their respective NSS Gateway Centres. They are close
to significant population bases and will continue to have an important role in the future by facilitating direct
air services to as many commercially viable international locations as possible, as well as linkages to Dublin.
Both are therefore important instruments in the development of their respective regional economies. The
challenge for both Airports is to continue to meet their regional transport needs and to respond to the
growth of their regional economies. Both Airports have experienced significant passenger growth in recent
years and there is the potential for further growth. Significant investment has been made in developing
passenger facilities at Shannon in recent years.

But The Spatial Strategy was scrapped and never replaced, and the goalposts have long since moved back to just a tourism drive

http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/fi...ion-policy.pdf
Cork and Shannon Airports
The size and location of Dublin Airport distinguishes it from the other State airports. However, Cork
and Shannon have other advantages and must develop their business potential accordingly. Tourism
development has a key role to play in this context and both airports also play a key gateway role for
businesses in their regions, especially multinationals.
Shannon is also important for connecting traffic with encouraging increases in transit and transfer
traffic facilitated by the convenience of Shannon‘s single-terminal transfer capacity.
Cork and Shannon Airports are ideally located as Gateways to some of the premier tourism
destinations. Given the natural attractions of these areas and the tourism development already in
place, inward directed tourism can be the key economic driver

Cork Airport will probably shut down before 2020: Aviation sources say traffic at Cork Airport is down almost 40% since 2008.
Cork to Limerick Motorway isn't a possibility, no money.

As far as I can see, the government don't have a strategy...

(Not ignoring the fact that Cork almost faces a bigger problem in the form of inept local authorities, which attempted to retrofit cycling lanes without an orbital road, despite protests by the Gardai, and have banjaxed the traffic system)

Dannyboy83 · 03-01-2015 05:58PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

I am against the one for everyone in the audience that merely allows the scattered nature of our population, but I strongly believe in multiple regional growth engines.

We already have this in spite of the lack of planning and lack of infrastructural development:

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpubl.../#.VF5yAPmsV8E
In Ireland in 2011 the South-West region accounted for 36.2% or €36.7 billion of Irish industrial output.

Dublin as a region produced 18.9% or €19.2 billion worth of industrial gross output in 2011.

South-West, West and Mid-West regions had more persons engaged in foreign owned industrial units than Irish owned in 2011

Wages and salaries per person engaged in the Industry sector in Ireland in 2011 was highest in the South-West region at €44,800, while the Dublin region was next highest at €44,700.

Almost €7.9 billion was spent on wages and salaries by industrial units in Ireland in 2011. The South-West region had the highest total spend at €1.5 billion while the Dublin region spent €1.4 billion.

In 2011, County Cork had the highest value of gross output per person engaged in Ireland at €1.18 million. Mayo and Roscommon combined was the next highest at €0.78 million, while County Dublin was third in the rankings with €0.62 million per person.

I bought a house in Cork last year and I knew when I was buying here, we weren't going to get the infrastructure you might see in Dublin such as Orbital Roads and so on.

I think that's just an opportunity cost you have to accept, it's just a consequence of living in a region instead of the Capital, the same way people living in the Capital have to accept 2 hours in traffic.
Quality of life is worth more to me, other people have different values. It's probably going to be the next decade before there is any progress in terms of infrastructure anyway.

Dannyboy83 · 03-01-2015 06:03PM

Ireland trade with Russia still increasing

Irish exports to Russia amount to around €635m a year. The latest available figures from the Central Statistics Office (CSO) show an increase of 28pc from January to July in comparison with the same period in 2013, with July alone showing a 121pc increase.

The growth has been consistent over time. Enterprise Ireland client exports to Russia – which account for over 45pc of the CSO figures – have increased 87pc between 2008 and 2013.

ezra_pound · 04-01-2015 01:55AM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Well the status quo ain't working. I'm not even sure if it is working for the Dubs with housing/childcare/living costs much higher than elsewhere along with very long commuting times, I know Capital Cities are always more expensive but as much as we all love Dublin, it isn't a Global City like London for example.

My point was that there is nothing stopping us developing multiple mid sized cities across the country, like the countries I mentioned, a motor way from Waterford to Sligo would be a massive help. This would mean that people living within 20-30 min drive from that motorway have much greater access to opportunity, allowing people in towns like Tralee/Clonmel/Ennis/Ballina etc etc a chance to commute and therefore maintain a population level in their towns.

I'm not 100% sure it is a political problem, remember the political establishment attempted to move Civil Servants out of Dublin under DeCentralisation Program, but the Unions were having none of it, I may have that wrong, but that was my understanding, maybe someone can clear that up.

I am against the one for everyone in the audience that merely allows the scattered nature of our population, but I strongly believe in multiple regional growth engines.

If you build it they will come.
Ghost highways for ghost estates in ghost towns around ghost cities.

You have got to be joking about decentralisation! Are you for real? Seriously.

Silentcorner · 04-01-2015 11:39AM

ezra_pound wrote: »

If you build it they will come.
Ghost highways for ghost estates in ghost towns around ghost cities.

You have got to be joking about decentralisation! Are you for real? Seriously.

Well all I said about decentralisation was that it was a political initiative that didn't work out, it was abandoned, did that not happen? I assumed it was because the Unions were having none of it, I also said maybe somebody can clear that up.

The state of the Cork/Limerick/Galway road should be a National embarrassment, but in this country all roads (or at least motorways) lead to Dublin.

I mentioned nothing about building houses or ghost estates or ghost cities, I alluded to the fact that other countries of similar populations have managed to develop a lot more mid sized cities.

ezra_pound · 04-01-2015 02:20PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Well all I said about decentralisation was that it was a political initiative that didn't work out, it was abandoned, did that not happen? I assumed it was because the Unions were having none of it, I also said maybe somebody can clear that up.

The state of the Cork/Limerick/Galway road should be a National embarrassment, but in this country all roads (or at least motorways) lead to Dublin.

I mentioned nothing about building houses or ghost estates or ghost cities, I alluded to the fact that other countries of similar populations have managed to develop a lot more mid sized cities.

There's a ghost train that ff built which runs roughly the line of the motorway you want to build.

I find it amusing that you think that decentralisation is a good idea which a. Should have been implemented and b. Failed because of union resistance. Actually that is quite scary.

It is one of the worst policy moves of the Bertie days and was about 1/3 implemented. It was stopped because of the damage to the civil service from the moves made by 2009, the cost of doing it, the acknowledgement that it was a vote buying exercise, and the fact that the state was bust and can not afford to waste money and resources on schemes which reduce efficiency and are highly costly, all for buying ff votes.

You must have thought Bertie was great back in the day!

Silentcorner · 04-01-2015 02:43PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

There's a ghost train that ff built which runs roughly the line of the motorway you want to build.

I find it amusing that you think that decentralisation is a good idea which a. Should have been implemented and b. Failed because of union resistance. Actually that is quite scary.

It is one of the worst policy moves of the Bertie days and was about 1/3 implemented. It was stopped because of the damage to the civil service from the moves made by 2009, the cost of doing it, the acknowledgement that it was a vote buying exercise, and the fact that the state was bust and can not afford to waste money and resources on schemes which reduce efficiency and are highly costly, all for buying ff votes.

You must have thought Bertie was great back in the day!

What the f**k are you on about.

I never suggested it was a great idea, never, I merely stated it was a political initiative which failed, because the Unions were having none of it, it was abandoned in 2011 but in truth it never took off, before during or after the crash...it was a political initiative, not MY political initiative.

Any critical analysis of the initiative would have suggested that besides the cost and impact on efficiency there was no way you would convince a load of Dublin residents who work in the Civil Service that they were now to ship out to every backwater in the country...having a huge impact in their lives, who could blame them.

A much better way to buy votes would be to give the Cities in the region the boundary extensions and political infrastructure along with the transport infrastructure that the regional cities need to grow population. But they didn't...they went about it in an even more expensive manner...

ezra_pound · 04-01-2015 03:04PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

What the f**k are you on about.

I never suggested it was a great idea, never, I merely stated it was a political initiative which failed, because the Unions were having none of it, it was abandoned in 2011 but in truth it never took off, before during or after the crash...it was a political initiative, not MY political initiative.

Any critical analysis of the initiative would have suggested that besides the cost and impact on efficiency there was no way you would convince a load of Dublin residents who work in the Civil Service that they were now to ship out to every backwater in the country...having a huge impact in their lives, who could blame them.

A much better way to buy votes would be to give the Cities in the region the boundary extensions and political infrastructure along with the transport infrastructure that the regional cities need to grow population. But they didn't...they went about it in an even more expensive manner...

It never took off because it was crazy and wholely unworkable. It's easier to build motorways but they cost a lot of money.

If you want larger towns and cities throughout the country you need to greatly reduce one off housing or ban it entirely. Then city and town employees will move to live in cities and towns and then you can have the populations to improve public transport or motorway infrastructure.

Saipanne · 04-01-2015 03:05PM

How's the economy doing lads

Good economic news thread

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